Hi all,

I'm at my wits end....my Boxer has always suffered with the runs on and off but over the last three months it has been pretty much every day. Always starts off hard then gradually gets softer during the walk to the point where he is straining and nothing coming out by the end of the walk. He is a bit hit and miss with eating and occasionally goes for a day eating nothing. He has also seemed a bit on the skinny side recently.

We have been back and forth to the vets and I kept being told he had colitis and given medication which seemed to make no difference. I thought maybe he had allergies so changed his food to James Wellbeloved with no wheat, grains etc and he has definitely put on weight and seems to enjoy mealtimes much more scoffing all his food down however he still had the runs.

After another visit to the vet he had an enlarged prostate which the vet said could be causing the runs. He was given Tardek which made a slight difference but only for a week or so before the runs were back. I have booked him in for the snip on 1st June on vets recommendation. I got so upset by the whole thing that I got teary on one visit to the vet and begged them to help me find out the problem. The vet then did blood tests and the results showed that Nero's pancreas wasn't producing the enzymes that break down the food and allow the body to obtain the nutrients from it. This can also cause diarroreah so he was given Lypex medication which contains the relevant enzymes and for a week his poos were firm and I really thought we'd cracked, can't tell you how happy I was so see firm poo (was whooping around the forest).

But alas......yesterday and today the runs and straining are back. I just don't know what to do next? Any ideas? Should I be looking at changing his food again and doing the elimination style diet to see if his food is the cause? I will speak to my vet again but just wondered whether anyone could see something obvious that I'm missing. Sorry for the length of the post but I'm so lost on what to do.

thanks

Rosie

Sorry to hear about Nero, I don't really have much advice other than with my golden retriever (now 4) but when he was younger he did lots of poos on walks, it stared off ok and by the last one became progressivley runnier :( he would do about 5  or 6 on each walk, but he is absolutley fine now and two is the maximum - so if Nero is young it could be this.

Have you thought about giving your dog a natural raw diet?  I would also be inclined to look at more natural approach such as a homeopathic vet. 

maybe the meds need some adjustment ?

I had one of my girls on pancreatic enzymes for years before I lost her, just before her 17th birthday.  Her poos were super.

She was on Pancrex from 12 years old, and I helped her by making sure that she was never, ever given food with fat in.  She had Hill's ID tinned food, which was nice and wet to mix the Pancrex in.  When the others had treats, all I allowed her was Hill's dry ID.  So she had a bikky when they did!

The vet reckoned she went on for so many years because I was 100% about never allowing her anything other than ID and Pancrex.

One of my dogs has been on lypex for years.  I have to be careful that she has no fats in her diet, as this will easily irritate things. (some treats can be bad for this). Her poos are fine (fed burns). Make sure nobody gives her treats you do not know about (my mum used to give her bits of cheese for treats) lol. Hope you get to the bottom of it

thanks for your replies. He has justed turned two and I did have him on a natural raw diet for about six months but it made no difference to his poos and the vet went a bit nuts about the chicken wings and lamb ribs!!! He went through a stage of vomitting his food all the time as well and as my mum was having him for three weeks last Sept when I was on honeymoon we put him back on dry as it was easier for her and haven't tried raw again since but would like to go back to it at some point.

I did look at natural remedies and he has slippery elm put in his food a couple of times a week. It did seem to make a difference for a few weeks but again that doesn't seem to have any effect now.

The treats point made by Christine is interesting though. Nero has never been food orientated and trying to find a treat that he liked to train him as a pup was a nightmare. The only thing he will do anything for is cheese. He doesn't get much of it, I usually take a little bag of cubed cheddar for walks just so that he heels on the lead and behaves. He'll probably be given a total of 6 to 8 little cubes on the way to and from the forest that we walk to. I'm guessing I should cut this out and see if it makes a difference? Could I try a fish type treat maybe? He can be a bugger on the lead so a little something nice in my hand just keeps him focused on me when it's needed. Any suggestions of natural treats that dogs can't resist?

Just looked at tub of James wellbeloved 'pure incentive' treats the lamb and rosemary says 98% lamb and no mention of fat on analysis. they also do a fish version (stinky ) so may be worth an email to them. they are pretty small dried cubes so fine to give instead of your cheese if they say no fat.
Chris

> The only thing he will do anything for is cheese

But it's the last thing you should be feeding.  If it causes excruciating pancreatic pain, when you can prevent it.  Dogs, being stoical, don't show us the true amount of pain that they're in.  It was only by putting my girl on totally fat free that kept her with me. 

Have to be honest, I wouldn't even be feeding burns.  Or raw.  As I said - a treat for my girl was dry ID, but she had a long and active life, doing obedience and tracking.

Cheese is off the menu then and I'll have a look at the james wellbeloved treats. I do have some of the JW duck and rice little bones but he's not that keen on them and they're too big as a little tit bit on walks but I'll look at the other ones mentioned, thanks. I'll be interested in whether the castration makes any difference as the vet seems to think it will!

Have to say he's looking very beautiful at the moment......sat by the open patio doors in the sunshine with his head hanging out of the door, he looks a happy boy!

well just read looking for whether you were giving it milk...was told that causes the runs...and cheese ? well taht is milk...maybe that...my pup likes cheese some ...but is not on cows milk...she does like it though...getting COLD TUMMY can cause runs too. boxers don't have much hair...my pup had the runs when she ate all sorts at other dogs houses ! changing diets often probably did that to her...she tends not to eat so gets tum ache it seems when overdoes it like that . what did she eat there ? ooh noodles...those pasta things.

I had a boxer who I got as a rescue at 9months and he suffered with colitis and even though he enjoyed his food, he looked skinny on his back end. We tried lots of diets, medications etc and eventually by pure chance I met a bloke from Oscars Pet Foods and we got talking and he gave me some dried food to try, think it was oscars chicken and rice(its got to be gluten free), and for 10 years he stayed on that diet because it was the only thing that helped his colitis and his last 2 years I had to change his diet cos of too much weight and his colitis came back! Im sure that it will be a food issue that is causing your boxers problem, they have very sensitive stomachs. My boxers colitis spoiled many a walk because he couldnt walk for keep straining as if pooing but just jelly stuff coming out. Hope you sort your problem out. My boy had to be put to sleep at 13 but he had good life.

> Im sure that it will be a food issue that is causing your boxers problem

The OP has said that the vet has tested to find the problem, and has found pancreatic insufficiency.  The diagnosis is not colitis, according to these results.  This is NOT diet related, and is life threatening.  It is not colitis.

> I'll have a look at the james wellbeloved treats. I do have some of the JW duck and rice little bones but he's not that keen on them and they're too big as a little tit bit on walks

You should have him on a prescription diet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is the royal canin digestive food or hills ID the type of prescription diet you're referring to? I've also now read that the pancreatic issue can be made worse with some foods so surely it is partially diet related?

RC digestive food is for digestive problems.  Pancreatitis is far more dangerous than dietary upsets.

Prescription diets specifically for resting the pancreas should be fed to alleviate pain. 

Feeding cheese (or any kind of fat) is not causing pancreatitis.  It is, however, exacerbating the pain that the dog is in.  As I said, I withdrew fat of any kind, so that my dog did not suffer.

So, yes, feeding fat to a dog that can't handle it, will make it flair up, and the risk is too great in my opinion.  Why would you feed anything to make things worse?

Thanks JeanSW. I don't want to make things worse and I certainly don't want my dog to be in pain. My vet wasn't overly helpful about it all. He just gave me the Lypex and said see how you get on with that, they also tried to sell me the RC food I mentioned but I was reluctant to change his food again without understanding why. You've explained about the fat and the cheese and I have ceased giving him that and will look at presription diets.

The whole point of me asking advice on here was as I feel very much in the dark about what I should be doing for the best so Nero isn't suffering.

You obviously have knowledge of this area which I am grateful for. Which type of Hills ID did you feed your dog?

Rosie

If you are concerned about the costs of feeding the prescription diets you can buy
them cheaper at the online pharmacies and even PetPlanet sells them and at some
if you spend over £29 you get free delivery and the prescription diet is over the £29 if you buy
the 14kg bags.

I have a Boxer on the RC sensitivity control prescription diet (she has dietry intolerances) and honestly she's fine on it.
They also do a wet variety too. Not sure of the RC diet for pancreatitis thou if it comes in complete
and wet varieties.

When she has treats it's normally more of the complete in a kong and she's quite happy.
So she doesn't miss out when my others have their kongs and she's not allowed access to those.

Really your vet should have explained to you more fully the reasons of why prescription diet would be better for him..
I'm sure if you asked more questions at your vets they won't mind after all that's how we all learn.

:)

thank you to everyone for their replies, I'm going to pop into the vets on Monday and ask some more questions.

As I'm sure you'll all know it's horrid when something is wrong with your beloved dog and you can't get to the bottom of it. At least now I've got some ideas of what to discuss with the vet.

Not that you'd know anything is wrong with him as he's currently bombing around the living room bringing me one toy after another....crazy dog! I've told him it's bed time but he disagrees!!

> You obviously have knowledge of this area which I am grateful for. Which type of Hills ID did you feed your dog?
>

Rosie, I have to be honest and say that RC sensitive sounds more like something suited for dietary intolerances.  As opposed to a feed recommended for supporting the pancreas.  (The reason I am really interested in pancreatitis is that I have had 2 dogs with the complaint over 40+ years of dog ownership.)

At the time of my second one, the vet was superb, and I honestly believe that him making sure I realised the importance of never giving "treats" was why I had her so long.  She was never fed without pancreatic enzymes on her food.  Her treats were ID or a plate of vegetables!!!  :-(

My girl liked wet food, which was why I fed the tinned Hills ID as her main food.  I understand (from someone on CD) that the wet food actually helps the enzymes get to work.  So I bought a small bag of the dry, and she actually had that as her treats when the others had dog biscuits or chew sticks.

I did find that buying Hills ID straight from the vet was pretty costly.  So ended up buying online.  I used to buy the tins in trays of 24, and would order as many trays as I needed to get free delivery!  It always had decent dates on it, so it was no problem buying in larger quantities.  I lost my girl last June, just missing her 17th birthday.  Haven't bought it since so would say do some research about delivery charges.  Some suppliers appear cheaper on the food, and then whack a huge delivery price on, so it is definitely worth doing your sums!

If your boy likes dry food, it wouldn't hurt to just give a small amount of tinned to mix your enzymes in, then stir in the dry.

I have now looked at Hills ID on line and I thought that that was the brand name and then there were variants you could get depending on the condition your dog has. Now having looked at it I realise that Hills is the brand and the letters afterwards dictate the condition that your treating. Sorry JeanSW, you must have thought I was being a bit dense when I asked what type of Hills ID do you feed!!!!! Doh

http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/digestive_disorders_in_dogs.PDF

http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/vet/clinical_diets/canine_clinical_diets/digestive_low_fat_dry.aspx

http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/gastro_intestinal_lowfat.pdf

For the Royal canine version of what you'd probably be advised to feed (Royal Canin Gastro Intestinal low fat), from the looks of it,
they do both a dry complete and a wet food in this variety.

Good Luck for Monday :)

Hi all,

just to give you an update.....Nero has been on a mixture of dry and wet Hills ID now for about ten days and I am pleased to report that it appears to be working. I'm being very strict and he has had no other food or treats. His poos have been firmer throughout his walks and we haven't had any runs for about 8 days now. Can't tell you how pleased that makes me.

He has been on lead only walks since he was castrated on 1st June and he is having his stitches out this afternoon. I'll be intrigued to see if there is any change to his poo once he is running around again as historically he has always been a bit firmer when he has a poo on the lead, vet told me that was to do with adrenalin and stress of running around and that it can bring on runny poos!

Can't wait to get him out in the forest after the vets later so that he can have a good run around, especially as we have a border terrier staying with us so the two of them will go barmy no doubt!

Rosie

Hope the Hills ID continues to help.  I know it means being strict - but you need to be, and he is the one to benefit.  :-)