my puppy of 12 weeks old continues to have a fascination for dog shit. i have to say there are just too many of them near me in France everywhere. but yesterday she vomited an entire turd ! i am concerned. she also is difficult about eating her normal food. ignores it unless i hand feed her often. this is a pantomine i know the vet said so too. but the dog shit issue bothers me the most. any reasons as to what or why she is doing this welcome. a local brit told me he knew a dog which ate its own turds ! an adult !

All dogs do this.  It's a dog thing!  Perfectly normal, even if it is gross.

Picking up faeces as soon as your dog eliminates means that there won't be any for him to eat!

LOL ! but it must be unhealthy to eat OTHER DOGS pooh poohs ! i wish people would train dogs to do what cats do...bury them ! i will try with mine...she is a digger...LOL

I see your flag is French so if you're in France it may be different - but in the UK it is considered responsible dog ownership to pick up and dispose of your dog's faeces in public places - in fact I think it is that law - I could be wrong, but since I clear up after mine for reasons of human and canine hygiene and to avoid unsightly mess I've never felt the need to find out.

And yes, it is normal - mine are partial to a spot of fox (or human if available :-o ). I think with eating other dogs it can be territorial, since the faeces is scent marked by anal gland secretion to mark the territory - she may be getting rid of the other dog's 'marks' - or sometimes it's just to do with what the dog is fed on. :-)

yes that flag is a problem ! nieko tokio...which means...never mind in Lituanian...and there are LAWS for picking up dog turds in France too...it is just that like everything else that is a LAW like that in France...people IGNORE IT ! not very CIVIC MINDED culture  ...the first WORDS a French baby learns ? is MOI MOI MOI !!! and it sets the scene ..for INDIVIDUALISM ! i prefer...British Eccentricity myself ! at least it means FANCY DOG POOH BAGS ! LOL ! she has stopped...today...i said NON to her at a turd...several of course...PART OF THE COURSE in france on a 500 meters walk you meet at least 3 ! in public places...the FIELDS are safer ! and i think being SICK as she was yesterday throwing a full one out undigested taught her a possible lesson ! good to learn the HARD WAY for that as for many things in life ! there must be some vitamins or scent in them yes though...

i have just sent an email to the local French council...advising they put up notices about whatever law exisits around here...and collect REVENUES from policing adherence to picking up one's dog's turds !LOL ! they will NOT reply. SULK is the expected reaction. Like when i informed the airport security my hunting knives were not picked up in their scanner security and searches...they IGNORED me !

If she is also picky it could be that she is lacking digestive enzymes, which she is getting from the poo.

A little green tripe (not the cleaned bleached type sold for human consuption, but the raw type straight from the cow) added to her food may sort out both issues, as it encourages appetite and also because of the contents of partly digested grass in the tripe it has beneficial enzymes.

In my area they can fine someone up to a £1000 for not picking up poo, though I haven't heard of anyone being fined that much.  One thing for fines to be available but another enforcing them or catching people.

The neighbouring council is very good at the amount of poo bins they provide, which helps a lot.

FANTASTIC !!! that is good info ! i will tell her breeders too ! seeing them for classes first time again today ! thanks.

I've been meaning to email my local council to ask for more bins locally (the richer areas get more round here....) but it has been pushed way down the list owing to personal circumstances. I'm glad you're getting somewhere with curing Black Fairy of her habit. :o)

We had our first successful prosecution in our borough last month. It cost the owner £250, which would probably buy his dog several years' worth of poo bags. He was given every chance to clean up after his dog, and when he didn't he also refused to pay the spot fine, which was apparently noted by the magistrate when he handed down the fine. If that kind of behaviour doesn't merit a £1000 fine, what does?

Sometimes think a lot depends on the breeders hygiene regime - bitches will pick up after the pups if the breeder is not quick, a pup will watch the dam clearing up and learn to do it as well. It is possible that this pup thinks that she should clear up, after all that is what her Mum did, kind persuasion not to continue will work to some extent but a lesson learned in the nest is hard to erase.

ALL DOGS   dont do this , some do and loads don't ,  i have found it seems to be genetic  running in lines .

I don't know about WHY your puppy is doing it, but I'd be thinking along the lines of, HOW can I deal with this? and WHAT do I do to get her out of the habit?

I guess the first thing that comes to mind is, keep her on lead wherever you may encounter stray turds. (Or don't go anywhere where there are any stray turds til you have a cast-iron way of getting her attention back onto you.)

That way, you might see her go towards one but you could at least distract and reward (Clicker training might help).

Getting her attention as in a reliable "Watch me!" command will not only help but be a good foundation for other things. If you can somehow make yourself more interesting than dog turds, you've won. She is so young and keen to learn that she should be soaking up new stuff like a little sponge, and if you can't get her attention away from things at this age, chances are you won't when she's older. I see no reason to use any punishment or aversives for a pup this young - especially a Belgian - they are, just like toddlers, learning about the world and curious as anything... you need to guide them as to what's ok and what isn't but not by any kind of force.

Is there a toy she loves most of all? What happens if she wanders off and you suddenly start dancing around calling her & waving the toy?

> ALL DOGS   dont do this , some do and loads don't

Did anyone say they did?

My one puppy eats my other dogs fiecies, I was told that they have a vitamin deficency!! but i could be wrong.  In my area if you dont clean up after your dog you could be fined uptp £5000.  That doesn't stop the dog walker who lets her dog mess on my front garden, and when i catch her she is going to get it. I mean how would she feel if let my dogs poo on her garden and didn't clean it up, its disgusting!!  Wel;l enough of my rants.

Yes Nova someone said they "All did "

Must have forgotten reading that then, was puzzled because you replied to me. Will re-read the posts to see why that conclusion was come to.

Must have forgotten reading that then, was puzzled because you replied to me. Will re-read the posts to see why that conclusion was come to.

Yes, I see JeanSW did, not sure she actual meant that but you are correct she did say that.

Well most will t some point, but often minimising the opportunity and gentle distraction is enough to break the habit.  I often find pups at about 5 weeks will sample so am vigilant when cleaning up after puppies, some breeders may not be, and pups develop the habit.

Often it returns with a bitch that has had puppies, as she will have been doing it for them, and also the veterans seem to do it especially when there is a new pup getting more nutrient dense food (and of course more of it is undigested in a pups immature digestive system).

PUT A FEW PINEAPPLE CHUNKS  IN YOUR DOGS FOOD
WILL STOP THE EATING THIER  PHOOO AND OTHERS
THEY MAY FIND ON WALKS,

It won't stop them eating other dogs poo, and I don't think there is a problem with it's own.

yes she understands NON / NO now when i caught her trying a DONKEY TURD this weekend...took it out of her mouth without a snarl even from her ! LOL ! she LOOKS at them now...then LOOKS AT ME ! knowing...a nasty smack bottom little whack could result in any mouthing of that ! she is far from stupid...but i cannot explain her the reasons why she vomited on these things and the bacterial nastiness of them whatever the nutricious attraction of the smell or whatever. Some dogs die from them no doubt. a little twinge in her bottom once has sent the message. she was FURIOUS about them...absolutely obsessed with them...NOT ANYMORE ! LOL PINEAPPLE COMING UP TOO !!! sounds good...vitamins...pineapple...cheers

> a nasty smack bottom little whack

I'm beginning to think that this post is a total wind up, with references to hitting a dog.  The other post from the same OP talks about punishment as if it's normal.

> I'm beginning to think that this post is a total wind up

I have my doubts too. The OP's website shows pics of a dog playing with one described as "American Pit Bull Terrier" when in fact it is clearly an English Bull.

With the greatest respect to you, Black Fairy, it presents that you are not so experienced with dogs (forgive me if I am wrong) or perhaps it is a cultural difference? If you would like to learn about positive non-punishment ways of training dogs then please stick around, you can find a lot of experienced people here willing to help. And I would love to see your little Belgian grow & flourish :)

Sorry Blackfairy just read that through, did not intend to sound so mean... I just wonder if you are coming from a much different direction to most of us on here - in which case my apologies and hope you stick around :)

hitting puppy issue: explanation. I see i am concerning some that i am violent with my puppy. not at all. oh, the pitbull, the owner said it was an american one, a nice calm dog my puppy likes to chase around with no reaction but calm tolerance from the adult dog i and others know and are safe with. i have had my puppy now a month. i do not pull on her lead, i do not spank her for any routine things at all. she is nearly house trained without any nose in pooh things suggested to me needed. i have given her 3 little single spanks however.
1. after 1 week of pantonmines to play not sleep at night and chewing me in bed i spanked a little spank her bottom after saying NON DODO several times. she did not yelp, was not a hard spank, but sulked and since ? perfection. we sleep at nights undistubed.
2. she was eating anohter dog turd ...had vomited one a few days before...i did not use the word NON that means LET GO or stop what she is doing...i rushed with my hand to seize her and pull her off it...she turned on me to bite me...not in play...so i smacked her...she turned again and i held her down on the ground to stop her. the moment passed. there was no yelp, the hit was not hard...but the message was clear...no growls or attacks on me for trying to take a dog turd off her..since then ? yes i learnt MY mistake....say STOP or NON before surprising her with getting hold of her...and she LET GO of a DONKEY TURD and let me take it out of her mouth this weekend...and LOOKS at me now when she sees dog turds on the streets here.
3. the 3rd time was very minor...from a distance she was for the first time in an open field totally over excited not seeming to hear my calls even to her to return...i threw accurately the lead which caught the back of her bottom slightly...she was surprised and simply stopped and looked around...not hurt...and now the over excitement has passed....she pays attention to look to see where i am from the distance i have noted...important...there are cars off that field...i had to stop her direction fast...btw...she is learning kerb and traffic sense...she stops at the kerbs always...the world ATTENDS...wait...on or off lead...but i still use the lead when on the busy road not cul de sacs where cars go like maniacs too fast to be heard even over the noise for the dog.

i was criticised for this ...told do not use a lead for punishment...she loves the lead and harness...knows it means walkies...carries it...it was just a one off a few weeks back the first time she went awol with the excitement of all the smells in the newly ploughed field...i let her do that freely of course when not near the roads.

these things are a nuissance. i believe...referring to spanking...when a dog repeatedly disobeys, it is in order to give a whack on bottom. especially if aggression and a warning understood has been given. puppy or adult dog...NOW she has learnt...i will NOT TOLERATE aggression from her on me...not for taking anything off her. necesssary.

but i have to give her the WARNING first i know. i must NOT surprise her without a warning. give her a chance to obey.

i will NOT put my puppy nose into dog pooh she occasionally does in the house or whack her with a newspaper for that...no...she is accepting to wimp to say open the door to let her out to me...does it at once when i put her out on words used to tell her to eliminate...so ? i can live with some accidents for a few months i say to that. no violence needed. the puppy understands.

she even wimped and moved off my lap to pee on the carpet in the car the other day travelling...she is naturally clean i feel and tells me she wants a pee...but we were driving on motorways so could not stop at that moment...on the way there we did when she wimped and it was fine.

hope this helps explain ! i am not a kick whack dog maniac ! but it is the last resort to put things needed in order...

i want my little belgian too to flourish, and those words touch me very much as said on behalf of another person...she is so full of spirit, energy, we came back from weekend to rest her...she ran with an english setter hunting dog 2 mornings several kilometers even leading the way with her little legs...she is willing...but rest first...and i want her to become a tracking people dog one day...if she can learn from hunting dogs and cats...i am happy...she loves digging earth too...i think she copies the cat for that...it digs carpets...not my cat...a kitten of neighbours who provokes her to play...he is lonely...she knows his name...looks forward to coming in to play with him...but a little rough around his neck...i am trying to control her growing strength in jaws and needle puppy teeth that pulled his collar off even last night when in frenzy rund around together mode...

I have ordered one of those CLICKER things...for training...seems a good idea. the control of eating dogpooh is a deep one...deep shit...i think vitamins or something is the attraction. but...she is responding to NON/NO now. it is an absolute NIGHTMARE in France metropolitan this issue...rules are just disregarded and men piss in the open let alone dogs...sigh sigh...

I realise you're not a native English speaker, Black Fairy, but please do you think you could try to not use some of the more offensive words you write? Children as well as adults read these posts, remember! Thanks for understanding. :-)

is the word txxd an offensive word ? did not think so...pxxh ? it is hard to avoid using the words to describe what i am talking about...faeces then...kids use words like pXXh...that i have heard normally...talking about the EATING of this is of course revolting...which is clear and a common problem with dogs...cannot avoid that or seeing it even ...kids take their dogs out for walks and see as much too i suggest so helpful to know what to do about it. i am not swearing here, just using words technically correct and common language words for faeces used by kids that i have heard. can we not talk about what is seen in the streets ? i suggest that leads to the highest teenage pregnancies in Europe in that case...avoidance of talking of what is commonly seen is not a healthy way in my view.

T**d is barely tolerable, but S**t and p**s are considered very vulgar.

Poo and wee are considered acceptable childish slang; otherwise people use more technical words; defaecation, faeces, stools, urination, urine etc.

I think we need to remember that English is not the posters first language so words used may have a different connotation to us.

Certainly nothing new about the methods described, ask any non dog person what you do with housebreaking and many will still say wipe their nose in it etc.

Where OP says whack she may mean tap????

Also if I am understanding correctly the cultural background the OP comes from Dog keeping and their training generally is not as enlightened as it has become here.

>I think we need to remember that English is not the posters first language so words used may have a different connotation to us.

That's why I explained that I understood the language problem and politely asked her to moderate her words. :-)

Even Barbara Woodhouse wote that rubbing a puppy's nose in its mess was a wicked thing to do, so people who still advocate it are really living in the dark ages! Luckily Black Fairy is more enlightened than them (and yes, I've come across plenty over here too).

I hadn't got as far as your post JG :), very reasonable as it is.

It can be very hard to know how to progress with a new puppy if the information received from those we respect or assume know best like parents etc is so outdated.

Black Fairy is a new owner keen to learn so am sure he/she will soon learn the best methods if steered in the right direction.

>the pitbull, the owner said it was an american one,

It's a Bull Terrier (whether it comes from the UK or America!), not a pitbull. They're very different breeds. Just a technicality, but important if you're being accurate. :-)

I have never had a Belgian Shepherd, but I believe as a breed they can be VERY sensitive to any form of punishment - even the gentle tap etc. The clicker sounds like a fantastic idea, and when used properly you should be able to achieve some brilliant results as BSDs are also, I believe, clever and fast learners. What I don't know is whether any of the good books about clicker training can be bought in French, or what sort of clicker training classes you can get over there, and I wish I could help more, because your desire to get it right with your pup and love for her shines through. :-)

Lindsay on here is I think a behaviourist, and certainly knows a lot about training and has a Belgian Shepherd (Tervueren not Groenendal) but is you send her a Private Message she may be able to help you with the clicker training. :-)

oh then i must have misheard the name of breed of his dog...he has several names for it too i add...will change my website description thanks !

ooh si, Belgians are very sensitive...this one squeels if a cat defending her kittens hisses at her the other day...YELPED in fear ! high pitched noise that is most unpleasant to my sensitive ears...and she SULKED when she got a slight smack si.

this clicker thing...she has such sensitive ears...hearing...i want to know how to use it...and thanks for advice. i need some books now my credit card last 3 digits are readable again on the replacement card so can order any good ones yes.

> What I don't know is whether any of the good books about clicker training can be bought in French,

I would think it likely - especially as some must have been translated into French for the French-speaking Canadians.

yes this advice of rubbing her nose in her own pooh i have been given several times totally unasked for by me i add...i do not consider i have a house training issue with my puppy ! but for some reason...several people here in France have suggested that course of action...and i said no to them all...i would not do it...and i got annoyed that one man PULLED my puppy's lead taking it OUT of my hands to get her to walk ! i was very annoyed at that...i NEVER do that to her at all...she RESISTED anyway ! as i thought she would ! i use a harness exactly for that reason ! to avoid hurting her little neck in any way ! not because she pulls on the lead ! she does not ! a light resistance makes her react at once ! my WORDS or GESTURES even faster than the lead i add when off lead.

I think other people have a house training issue with dogs here. to give me that kind of advice.

I do need to control other people interfering with my puppy. difficult. they do not ASK first is my problem. they could get BITTEN one day...they like to PICK HER UP !!! no but seriously...she does not LIKE it...and it will result in a bite if i do not stop them doing it. she is not a biter, but things like that i think could start it up.

she is small. a puppy obviously. so people must like picking up puppies. but i wish people would do that to THEIR dogs not mine ! or ASK me...and i see if the dog wants it...she often does not.

You say that she is not a biter but allowing people to push her into something she is not comfortable with make make her aggressive. You are absolutely right. However it is also very true that smacking and forcing your dog into a down is also likely to result in aggression as she gets older. Aggression will be met with either fear or more aggression and a belgian shepherd is a lot stronger than you when fully grown so i wouldn't advise physical punishment at all, in fact if your dog is trying to bite the worse thing you could possibly do would be to employ physical punishment as this is likely to make the dog more aggressive and result in a bad bite.

well i was more upset about the smack than she was i assure you. it upset me greatly to do that to her. not wanting to do that again. she sulked for 2 hours in fact.

what i need to control is other people messing around with her in fact. some idiots in my opinion just like to PROVOKE dogs for fun...calling it play...well i get quite enough of that from her own initiative to not want her hyper and getting frustrated and teasing from others.

picking her up is going to be another NO GO area.

people really should get toys to play with other than other people's dogs i say to that.

off the subject a bit - but relevant - in that i have received...unlike here where i ASK for it...advice and orders of HOW TO FEED PUNISH etc my puppy from just about everyone i meet who wants to tell me what to do ! amazing. maybe a cultural French thing. telling people what to do unasked for. so ? i look to forums with people who have dogs that know what they are talking about. QED.

> well i was more upset about the smack than she was i assure you. it upset me greatly to do that to her. not wanting to do that again. she sulked for 2 hours in fact.

Sorry but I have to ask: why do you think she was 'sulking'? If she was, what do you think was in her mind?
Could it be that the smack upset her, and she was unsure of what to do or how to approach you, perhaps the smack worried her? Belgians are very sensitive - they can be strong minded yes... but mainly they withdraw and become nervous of you, if you worry them. They don't things out of spite, so if you have done something and she withdraws then is reluctant to come to you after (is that what you mean by sulking? That she went away and didn't want to come to you for a while?), be very careful.... as that may mean she's regarding you with suspicion - when you need to be building trust instead. No dogs likes an unpredictable owner and some breeds have no forgiveness.

i had to learn the hard way from my pup ref. this breakdown we had of 2 hours of our relationship yes. she did not growl or bark, just sulked as in did not want to be with me. went off to sleep elsewhere in the house. i left her alone and she moved away from me each time i tried to approach her not fast just slowely getting up and lying down elsewhere. she moved to sleep in the doorway of the study next. then half way into the room. then at last with her paw on my foot at my feet where she always sleeps since and before. she does not expect or fear any movements i make whatsoever i add. but i had a sulk...a massive one from her i accept for that conflict over the pooh and her attack on me for trying to take it off her. she is back to normal, lets me take anything out of her mouth, no growls nothing. i will work on her growing wish to please me instead of herself which has been more why she saught me to play walk with her for the first couple of weeks with me.

the only times she occasionally refuses to come to me i add and just STARES at me is when she suspects i am about to put her in the car...which was also on the agenda the moment of that conflict...she gets carsick...she SENSES even that we are going out to the CAR not for a walk...refuses to come out of the doorway of our place. amazing telepathy dogs i say to that. it is ALWAYS when yes i am about to go by car somewhere !! LOL !!!

I must add...since we had a very nasty encounter in a public parc a week after she came here, when she just stayed sat in front of me and growled back at the 2 huge dogs out of control that ran to us with teeth barrred etc...she does NOT run FROM me but TO me if any instant of a dog movement towards us like that...i pick her up at the moment i add as i do not want her bitten...i do not run from the dogs...but i don't want her to get into a fight ...she is puppy...they would make minced meat out of her right now...i have to control these situations. but...she sees ME as security and does not want to move from me even if afraid of the hissing cat with kittens i add the only thing she YELPED at in fear and surprise when it hissed.She is used to the neighbours kitten, it does not hiss but plays with her. this cat...was with kittens and a danger.

> she does NOT run FROM me but TO me if any instant of a dog movement towards us like that...i pick her up at the moment i add as i do not want her bitten...i do not run from the dogs...but i don't want her to get into a fight

It's better for pup if you WALK AWAY from dogs you don't want her to meet, it teaches her that you will not force her to stay & confront the danger and that she has the option to avoid situations she doesn't like. :)  By 'standing your ground' and not moving away from situations that frighten pup, it can make her defensive (fear-aggresive) and really knock her confidance.

Try not to pick her up, unless you REALLY have to, and be aware when picking up a pup/dog that other dogs are interested in can cause the dogs to jump up at you.

thanks. I really don't know what to do when these things happen, i know picking her up is not recommended, but i am afraid of her getting bitten. i do not want to force her to stand her ground either, that is my style i admit with conflict. i am an adult human not a puppy.

well...hot off the presses...still a big issue here...sigh sigh...oh the T word...i avoided that one. never mind...the BEHAVIOUR is OBVIOUS !!! the things...whatever we want to call them...are in FULL VIEW OF KIDS !! to WALK INTO ! get ON THEIR HANDS ! make them ILL ! let alone ME !

MOI !!!

which leads me after succedding in getting her to agree to get into the lift to go out ...to my next post...about ? POOH POOH that people should pick up...sigh...i was in FULL RANT mode on my website...to the residents of this block...IN FRONT OF THE ENTRANCE ??? for kids to step into ??? and NO ONE BOTHERED that i spoke to about ??? were SEVERAL of the T words ! oooh...i am in FULL RAGE mode...as in RABID...but my language is not foul ! the BEHAVIOUR OF THE FRENCH RESIDENTS IS THOUGH ! and i say so...VERY GOOD FRENCH INDEED in case they try and make a comment about that too ! OOOH..my ACCENT is not heard in cyberspace...but ? the PRICE OF THESE LUXURY APPARTMENTS could GO DOWN with my statements ! so ? LET THEM CLEAN IT UP !!! or else ? well money talks...property prices hey...hit them where it hurts...I do NOT wish to have aggressive or pooh poohing dog owners annoying me !

all i did...was go out for a few minutes in the complex...never walk around here...and my oh my...all the doggy pooh i saw !

http://www.obcarskas.eu/20.html this bit about pooh poohs owners need to clean up...

http://www.obcarskas.eu/23.html this bit about how to handle aggressive dogs in public. sigh. well that is what the internet is useful for hey i say. MIGHT MAKE SOMETHING CHANGE AROUND HERE ! am too lazy to get a stamp out for paper

My dog did this when she was a pup and changing her food changed her behaviour.  She was on one brand and when I changed her to James Well Beloved the poo eating gradually stopped.  At one point I ran out of JWB and bought Pedigree as it was on special offer and she reverted back to eating other dogs' poo.  Once I put her back on  JWB the behaviour gradually stopped over a period of about 2 to 3 weeks and she hasn't done it since. She's six years old now and she has been fed JWB ever since without problems.

She continued to eat the odd treat of rabbit and horse poo for a while though but she seemed to just gradually lose interest in eating any poo over time.

My dog did this when she was a pup and changing her food changed her behaviour.  She was on one brand and when I changed her to James Well Beloved the poo eating gradually stopped.  At one point I ran out of JWB and bought Pedigree as it was on special offer and she reverted back to eating other dogs' poo.  Once I put her back on  JWB the behaviour gradually stopped over a period of about 2 to 3 weeks and she hasn't done it since. She's six years old now and she has been fed JWB ever since without problems.

She continued to eat the odd treat of rabbit and horse poo for a while though but she seemed to just gradually lose interest in eating any poo over time.

well this tells us that the suspicion that said pup is looking or attracted to something she needs...like when eating grass she does quite a bit of...is nutritional defficiency for sure ! so ? how to get said pup to GET what is needed...now she is NOT eating the pooh now...i dare say that nasty conflict we had stuck in her mind...no conflicts now...from a distance she LOOKS at me whenver she so much as SNIFFS one...and the one word NON from me no physical action from me makes her NOT touch it and walk away...must be quite hard for her that...

now i know local vet said vitamin supplement tablets are OUT due to overdoses of calcium in years past badly pushing growth in bones too much....but if these vits i ordered from Poland have oils and other things ? i am going to try them every few days if she does not eat...which is what the pooh thing is related to i reckon as well...sigh...or just natural tendency of genetics...someone here wrote some genes make this a trait in some lines. not that breeders are admiting any of their pups before did this...not something they did ? or just not willing to admit it ? maybe owners did not mention it...in France...that kind of thing is not so DISTASTEFUL culturally i add...not going into human relations here to disgust more prudish brits i add or i will get BANNED from here hey !! LOL !

about time someone mentioned language from black fairy.i thought admin would have blocked it