heres the imaginary scenario: 1st time novice exhibitor enters/takes her perfectly legally docked pup to a show held in an agric show, where there is a paying public,and doesnt notice the schedule saying "no docked dogs etc". She shows it and gets BP. She competes in the group where its spotted by a DEFRA official. At this point who is held responsible? The novice exhibitor who didnt know the law about shows with a paying public? the judge for judging the dog and not noticing it was docked? the steward for similar reasons? the secretary because the buck stops with them?
Just curious :)

Id say both the Steward and the Judge.

This is my take on it..I would probably say that it would be the exhibitor in the first instance as they know that the exhibit is docked or not(secretary would not know this when taking the entry). Unfortunate for them it would possibly be irrelevent that they are novice, ignorance(not the right word) is not bliss...what I'm trying to say they probably could not say something along the lines of 'I'm new to showing & didn't know'??

Once the dog was at the show, I would probably then say, the judge ought to be semi aware of the docked dog rule of the breed they are judging & advise the steward of the need to inform secretary.

In an ideal world, I would like to hope, that the novice exhibitor would be made aware of the error before going into the ring, therefor avoiding the following problem??

Thank god my breed is not a docked one!!

Ignorance is no defence :)

The rules are available in the Show Schedule and the exhibitor signs a declaration when completing the entry.   The final note of which says:  Dogs entered in breach of KC show regulations are liable to disqualification whether or not the owner was aware of the breach.

If this were a real example you'd hope that someone would gently point out the error to the exhibitor before they are judged.  If it gets to the level you describe then the show organisers should use it as a learning point to make sure everyone is fully briefed in future.  I'd expect anyone from DEFRA or the KC would wish to be assured that it were a genuine error and not a calculated attempt to deceive.  I doubt they'd do more than write to the show organisers   ... would they?

dogs a babe...you put it better than I did & thats basically what I was trying to say :)

Providing the schedule was correctly worded then it is the exhibitor, if not worded correctly the show secretary and possible the printer.

I would say the exhibitor, because how would the show secretary would know that the dog is docked ????

Specimin schdules ahve to be sent to the KC to be checked, so really, the buck could lie with them if its not correct ?

The printer is employed by the society, so they have no blame. 

As for the judge, how do they know wether its a legally docked dog or not ??

> As for the judge, how do they know wether its a legally docked dog or not ??

I hadn't thought of that

obviously the sec wouldnt know it was docked but in my OP I asked where the final responsibility would lie legally (in peoples opinions) if the owner didnt notice the rules and the judge even after judging the dog, had either not noticed it was a docked puppy or simply hadnt registered the situation and taken action.

As I said providing the schedule was correctly worded it would be the fault of the exhibitor, no one else would have signed the entry form.

Only mentioned the printer because they would know what should be on the schedule and therefore have a duty of care to their clients to see the schedule is printed according to the current rules.

As for how the judge would know - In many classes maybe excepting open the judge asks for the age of the dog. If that judge is undertaking an appointment at a country fair where the public are paying, regardless or not wether its legal or illegally done its still not allowed to be there under a certain age. At that point the steward/judge partnership should pick it up before group level as this is the exhibitors first encounter with anyone who has the means to find out the truth.

But like others have said in reality the buck stops with the owner as they have read and signed to abide by the rules. Novice or not they are still responsible.

If it's a breed that isn't naturally born as a natural bobtail then the judge, steward and others would know straight away that it wasn't legal for entry!

In reality it is the fault of all, but it was noted in the end and hpefully the second best pup was still around.

Does this mean I have to carry my letter around everywhere then even the fun dog shows?

Tail could have been removed following an accident and the exhibitor may have a letter showing permission to show, it is not part of the stewards remit to ask for such letters and I am not sure it is the judges either, am I wrong in thinking the judge can only dismiss a dog from the ring if it is unfit or aggressive. Think these letters are only asked for if someone complains about the placing or showing of such an animal - that makes anyone who sees an animal being shown who is not as it was born responsible in this case. I still maintain that the buck stops with the exhibitor providing the schedule had the correct information displayed as instructed by the KC.

Two other points spring to mind what if the dog has lost his tail in an accident can it be shown if people pay to view the show.

And what about visiting dogs to shows that allow dogs to be brought into the show they are allowed to be under age are they also allowed to be docked.

> And what about visiting dogs to shows that allow dogs to be brought into the show they are allowed to be under age are they also allowed to be docked.

It only applies to dogs that are actually exhibited, not only attending the show, wonder if it also applies to NFC?? (the docked part)

Think it is all a bit messy, if you enter a dog NFC it has to be of age and registered but a visitor can bring in any dog they like, never struck me as fair but what do I know the KC makes the rules and we have to cope with them the best we can.

I'm suprised that a fellow exhibitor didn't notice and bring to the stewards or secretary's notice before getting as far as the BOB??!?

> what if the dog has lost his tail in an accident can it be shown if people pay to view the show.
>

No, that is also forbidden.

Seems like someone has crawled into a very dim crevice in a effort to be seen as totally PC - just who are we tiring to convince do you think.

R U sure it's forbidden?  I don't think it is as I know of at least one person who has a dog of a breed that isn't docked whose tail had to be docked after an accident and they have a letter I'm sure from the KC to say that they can show.

Think it depends on if the show admits paying public, daft ain't it. Like if it is not seen it is not there - most of us grow out of this at about 3 years old.

If you don't pay to go in all of a sudden your eyes do not notice if a dog is docked, luckily it only seems to apply to very few shows most of which are Agricultural shows that have a dog section, good job the same rules do not apply to lambs and de-horned cattle, and, of course, Crufts.

are you talking to me Nova???? not sure what you are driving at? my OP was purely a hyperthetical query

No Sam, just following the thread. To me it seems the rules are made up or changes made as each anomaly occurs, nothing to do with you I am just bemused at what our betters think is good for us. At the moment it seems you will only notice a dog is docked if you happened to pay an entry fee rather than a car park fee to me it just aint logic.

> Tail could have been removed following an accident and the exhibitor may have a letter showing permission to show

If a dog has had to have its tail amputated due to injury it does then have to seek permissin to show from the KC but it then falls into the same catagory as legally docked dogs in that it cannot go to shows where the public pay to enter.