excuse me asking this question before i get all the books i have ordered on various things...and my clicker thing has arrived at the post office to collect...no idea how to use it of course until i read a book on it LOL...but

is it now standard to use titbits for all training of pups and dogs ? does no one not do that ?

i ask..because i never did it before with my dogs years ago...i did nto do agilty or things i want to with this one i add ...did not know about all that then...but...

i have not used any rewards for things i have taught my pup so far just actions and words of praise...and i would prefer to stay that way...but it seems fashionable to use titbits ! do they make such a difference ? i don't want my pup obsessed by a piece of food !

I reward my dogs with whatever they like best when training, my young rotty is very food orientated so liver cake is a winner with her.  My eldest GSD will work for liver cake or a ball on a rope which he is mad for.  My 3yr old GSD trains at agility with a ball rope, not interested in treats very much.  The incentive must be high, the reward worthwhile, whatever your dog is mad for works the best. 
I wouldn't go to work for nothing, a 'thank you' would only last a short time but give me something I value and I will do more work again! Its got to be enjoyable too.

You must reward every time you click (if you are going to use a clicker) - make sure you read up on it before using it to get the best results.

thx...yes i am very unsure about this clicker thing..need the books first ! lol...it has arrived before the books of course...don't recall ordering a book on it...i have not done extensive training before as i said...so i will find out if pup dog loses interest...it just seems for now she does not need rewards for the things i teach her....

I promise your pup will not lose interest if you read & follow the clicker training properly! :)
If people can train parrots, rats, cats, horses, dolphins and even FISH!! (Koi Carp) using clicker training, then you can see how good it can be for dogs as well. Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot The Dog" will teach you what you need to know, and probably get you very interested in this way of training.

If the dog likes food its great, many dogs prefer toys though.

Adam

Think of it like this: what would you rather work for, money or praise or both? Food is the dog's payment.

A trainer called Roy Hunter always said there were 5 Ps to reward your dog
Petting - rub ear, scratch head etc
Praise - verbal
Popping - treat into mouth
Play - quick game with toy
& 1 more I can never remember
His method was to pick which ever your dog found MOST rewarding, some dogs far prefer a quick game to any treat etc) and if poss vary them round so you didn't have a dog always expecting a treat.
Chris

You will be amazed at how much quicker she will learn if you use treats(or toys) to reward her,the higher value the reward the faster she will learn and the keener she will be.Years ago I was told by an obedience trainer not to use treats as it was "bribery" and that the dog should do it because you tell it.Thankfully things have moved on since then and you only have to see some of the fantastic performances in Heelwork to music/freestyle and Obedience at Crufts to see what can be achieved with clicker training.Dog training has certainly progressed.

> i have taught my pup so far just actions and words of praise...and i would prefer to stay that way

Very, very outdated way of training.  Agree with Helen - do it the modern way.  Rather than get your dog to obey you just because you're the boss!

Just got to say,Black fairy,that your Belgian girlie sounds like a positive trainer's dream dog as you say she wants to be doing things all the time and she sounds very bright.Its so good that you are taking on board the advice you have been given by some of the very experienced members of this forum.Clicker(and positive) training is right up a Belgian's street and it sounds like she's the type of dog that will be a complete star given the right approach.If you use aversives on her again(which I'm sure you won't now) its all likely to go horribly wrong!

ooh i am excited...thanks...i was talking to farmer woman yesterday about the wild birds of prey all over her ploughed fields looking for mice...her husband tamed a baby one once...i thought...ooh i would love to do that...a wild hunting bird...but i live in a flat...lol...they fly in front of me..clicker training for birds too !!! lol ! sounds good this...must get to post office to collect before lunchtim several hours shut here in france !!LOL

oh helenmd...just saw that comment...just started reading today here...well i do hope things continue as they seem to be good to date...other than the love of the nips and tugs she really is a madam...this morning i got licks in bed as well as mouthing but gentle ones...she was not AWAKE ! lol ! well i said to the poles yesterday what a great forum this was it hits hard tells it like it is and cares about the dog not me ! which is great for me ! now i have such hopes for this dog...for the first time in my life i have the maturity and knowledge that such things for dogs exist to do with them ! and i have i think a super specimen ! i nearly went for a buster black pup ...he is a champion of france dog...i never met him though...and it was far away...then i found a local breeder...and her bitch captivated me...she barked at me...but 2nd visit...recognised me and treated me differently...stared STRAIGHT into my eyes hard close up wagging her tail...seemed like she was talking to me ! i thought...i can't go wrong with these dogs...there are not many around ! can hardly FIND one in fact to have for months i had to wait !

petting her ? not appreciated that much by my pup...tires of strokes fast...likes under her body if on her back but otherwise quite happy not to be stroked much...she ADORES my words and CLAPS of praise though...what she likes to do to TREAT HERSELF when she has fetched the ball and kamikaze landed on my lap or chest with it ? BITE ME !!! she only lets it go if i let her BITE MY ARMS !!! LOL !!! she thinks THAT is REWARD for bringing the ball to me !!! seriously !!! if i let her do that ? oooh she goes on for at least 15 more ball fetches !!! then ? gets hold of my bag, keys lead ball everything around and LIES on them all defying me to try and take any without a seizure of my arms in her mouth !!! LOL !!!

since i started all this BITE CONTROL ? ah yes...she does STOP the bite or lunging at the word STOP now...why ? BECAUSE she knows i will NOT throw the BALL for her if not !!! LOL !!! it is a dratted NEGOTIATION right now with madam worse than any FD MD i have ever had to face as a challenge ! she is harder work ! more cunning ! LOL !!

i did not see any amazon books on freestyle music training...pup is too young i think legs need to form before she can run far...so too early...but i love those sessions seen on utube at crufts...harmony agility of man/woman and dog in fast movmement and synchronised...what a challenge that must be to train and achieve !!!

Would you be really keen to work for no pay????

well i have done yes ! forgot to bill !!! i enjoyed my work !! LOL! excuse me disappointing you brainless on that one !!! i like activity ! forgot expenses, pay all sorts in my time many a time !! !LOL !! which reminds me...really MUST get some done that are a few years old still !! LOL !!! bad hey ? for an accountant !! LOL !!!

Yes, but you found your reward in other ways.

Dog training is the same, some behaviours that dogs were bred for are so self rewarding that little needs doing to encourage it, in fact many find trying to temper or discourage it harder.

On the other hand there will be some behaviours that we want from our dogs that are not especially rewarding in themselves for the dog, so titbits, praise, or free time after can all be used to get what we want from them :)

For example retrieving breeds need very little encouragement to retrieve, on the other hand very few of my breed are natural retrievers.

I had a bitch who would bring me fledgelings (alive) dead things, etc (as using ehr nose is innate and pleasureable for a scent hunting dog), but if I threw a ball, dummy, tuggy etc, she would look at me as if to say, you threw it, you get it.

The fist time I went to dog training classes was in 1981. We used treats already back then.

that makes sense to me...well put brainless...for sure on the agility i see that running up a plank is not the first thing that comes to my pup's mind last friday...had to be pushed gently up it...now i am going to see about that acutally before we go again this friday...it was heights she was nervous about...and strewth if she fell at such a young age with not strong legs she would harm herself...so has to be held...i just want to conquer her fear...i thought to myself watching that...sXXX if my pup takes a liking to this i will be worried she falls doing it without me nearby ! not that that was on the cards...just concerned she did not take to overdoing something.

i need NO rewards of food to fetch a ball. i order her to pick up her lead or the ball and bring it to me if lying on the ground in fact and she does it.

i think the SIT and LIE down orders will be different...she will see no point in them...i have not used them to date...classes started with this titbit and taking it backwards so she sat without pressure...sigh...i watched that by the breeder and thought it woud be faster to push her bottom down...minus titbit...just teach her the WORD...but i am willing to obey myself ! LOL ! i am not a trainer ! just a command giver !! LOL ! and the command for STOP BITING MY ARMS is a difficult one !! LOL !!! i LOVE it when she is asleep ! such REST ON MY ARMS !! LOL !!

I was thinking of this statement that breeds are specific...well dare i suggest...dogs are COPY CATS ? odd term for cats...never understood the English expression myself...cats are independant ! why say copy cat ? passons...let us not get semantic...

well the other weekend fairy belgian shepherd followed 2 days an english setter, a duck hunter/retriever dog...old one...with al the instincts...and ? since then...i ASSURE you...she is LOOKING up at BIRDS...holds her paw up even ! i was amazed...that is COPYING i say...BIRDS !! just like Nemo the retriever does !!! STARES and holds his paw up !!! LOL !!! so ? COPYING has a major possible effect ? would anyone else agree ?

well i have never been to dog training in the past myself...just HEARD about woodhouse many years back...and then i had foyles handbooks breed specific books only to read...so there are gaps in my knowledge that i need to plug and fill !

I always use treats for learning new comands only, once a pup understands the command asked the treat IMO is no longer required they are more than happy to get that praise instead. But IMO when first introducing a clicker or whistle a treat is important to install that whistle/clicker is a good thing it is far easier even when just using for a garden recall for a pup to come running knowing it is getting something for returning as asked, it's a good tool for the young, but to be honest I don't use treats after approx 5 months (depending on pup) they have never been needed. :-)

To the OP I'd say there is no hard and fast rule about what or how you reward desirable behaviours - just that you do reward.  Take the time to help your pup/dog learn what pleases you, and what is worth repeating.

By that I mean that all acceptable behaviours should be acknowledged and marked in some way.  You should experiment with every type of reward that you know and make adjustments as you go along.  You may find that what works at home doesn't work 'in the field', and what reward you use for one type of behaviour doesn't work quite as well with a different behaviour OR when there are distractions.

At this early stage with your puppy - do not discount anything.  Try lots of different foods, toys, and voices (oh yes!) and be prepared to learn at the same time as your puppy :)  Lots of variety is often the key to keeping a bright dog motivated - they get curious about what excitement might be coming next and won't get bored.

I do hope you aren't doing agility training already? Your pup needs time to mature first.
You need to use whatever YOUR PUP finds most rewarding, not what you think is rewarding. For most that is food and for some thats toys, but there are very few dogs that would work entirely for praise alone, especially when there is something more exciting going on.

Agility should be enjoyed with mature dogs, not puppies.  I did a foundation course with my gsd bitch where we trained around the equipment NOT on it! Please don't push your puppy onto the equipment, its far too young.

As I said in my original reply  - the incentive must there, the reward worthwhile, whatever it may be, food, toy or game.

such a nuissance...just back from vets booked her rabies last vaccination needed tomorow...and asked for some treats for training...they gave me buiscuits...she ignores them...sigh...they are dry like croquettes...i did say don't you have something soft not dry ? no ...sigh...am fed up with this place...saw none in pet shop locally either...

the good news ? is collected her ordered pup competition FRISBEE from post office ! she took to it at once in teh post office even ! i came to this site finding a post regarding luminous stars one can attach to collars...they arrived too ! not very useful i add..clip on things...would easily come off...will email supplier a message about that...a slide clip...i dont; think them good myself. still. will try them out. have batteries. she is DARK so i need to see her in the dark !! LOL !!! it is strange one cannot have one's personal website in signatures here..it is standard on many forums...but anyways...not bothered the darkness black of my black fairy can be seen in my profile where the link to website it ! LOL ! ooh i am pleased about the frisbee she liked and got hold of ! but NOT PLEASED at the DRY TREATS sold to me by vet ! will offload them friday to other pup owners who might like them...and see where i can get something Fairy likes !

How old is your puppy black fairy?

I find the best treats are actually human food, not dry biscuits. I would only tend to use biscuits if the dog has a sensitive stomach. I've always used something like cheese, hot dog sausage, chicken or liver instead. It needs to be something very tasty that the dog will sell her soul for in order to get the best out of her.
Just a word of warning about the frisbee though - not too much until she is mature, twisting and turning and sudden stopping at such a young age could do a lot of damage, same with agility training. My pup didn't do any contact equipment until she was well over a year old.

oh, born on 10th feb 2010...so ? just over 3 months old ! she had all vaccinations except rabies which had to wait until at least 3 months old...so now is ok. the food issue is a big one with her. she weighs 8.3 kilos this morning, is not thin, but is a difficult eater. does not like dry food ! and i have 20 dratted kilos of puppy royal canin of it ! sigh. well it is full of nutrition needed, recommended, it is the TYPE she does not like...she wants WET food. will eat anything like meat cooked or not cheese even eggs...but dry food ? she ignores it ! sigh. and this TREATS thing is now the SAME PROBLEM ! if i am to use treats...then i need to find some that she likes ! this is hilarious ! taking those treats to pup classes this friday will have ? NO EFFECT on her for motivation !!! LOL !!!

ooh she was a madam just now...were at the farm for ages...farmers chat...well she heard me say words to set off home again...but took one look and thought of my CAR she hates travelling in we had stopped off on way back from PO for her things and ? STARTED TO WALK HOME HERSELF the way we go accross the fields without me !!! LOL !! i could not BELIEVE IT ! went and got her ! she was NOT coming back to the car ! this is good and bad news ! some dogs GET LOST ! cant find their way home !! this one ? will GO HOME by herself if she gets fed up !!! LOL ! bad and good points ! i could find that i look down at my feet one day at a bar and find her gone home ! LOL !!! what a madam ! i have to be careful...she did that action a few times at a bar she does not like i add...started off towards the road that i cannot allow her to do without a lead on...she knows the way once she has done 1 walk anywhere i can see now...i do add...the times at that particular bar...she BARKED at me !!! yes looked back at me and bARKED !! this is TAIL WAGGING DOG NOW ! she likes 1 bar and dislikes the other...no reason that i can see...except 1 person i find she does not like attentions of a customer there sometimes.

she is strange...she never hesitates getting into the lift ususally...just now though 1 woman unknown to us as most here was in it...and the pup WALKED OUT AGAIN and refused to enter it again...woman said to come in..i replied no go on, we wait. lift came back...pup went in fine no issues with ohter people in it. just awkward sometimes. it was an instant reaction. nothing scared her...just noticed the woman and walked out yet she BARGES in sometimes with a full lift !

she does a SIT DOWN all by herself when in REFUSAL mode. and lately has taken to BARKING AT ME if i say the word for CAR to her.

Black Fairy

Your stream of consciousness style of post (seemingly unedited)  is incredibly difficult to respond to.  You start off on one subject and gradually throw in more and more as time goes on.  131 posts in 13 days :)

You've been given a lot of good advice over several different topics about how to handle your young puppy but I'm unsure about how much you're really listening to what has been said.  It certainly seems that you may be attempting to do too much with your young puppy and that you have expectations of her that are better suited to a mature dog.

Please do take a bit of time to re read the advice you've already been given and spend some time just enjoying this puppy stage.  She's only 5 months isn't she?  You can spend time shaping her behaviours for sure but do remember to allow some time for her to explore and learn at her own pace.   She may be the centre of attention at the moment but she'll be a nicer dog if your world doesn't revolve entirely around her :)

PS treats needn't come from the pet shop - some of the best are home made, or derived from human food.  There is a thread here about natural treats. I think French supermarkets may be one of the best places for interesting treats, mmm sausages!!

thank you and i am doing so...taking time to re read all messages several times in fact...and ordered books too suggested. i need to read up...should have done so before getting her in fact...did not think or see any books to read the weeks leading up to getting her was so busy reading things on this breed and dogs on the internet all over the place...searching for a pup....all that.

> i need to read up...should have done so before getting her in fact...did not think or see any books to read the weeks leading up to getting her was so busy reading things on this breed and dogs on the internet all over the place...searching for a pup....all that.

Oh yes the research stage is fun isn't it!  The trouble is that you don't always know what's relevant before the pup comes, and then after the pup has arrived you're too busy for reading.  Yep, been there, done that!

Just take it one step, one topic at a time and remember to really enjoy this bit - she'll be grown up soon enough :)

thx too right ! one is thinking ...what was it i read about house training ? how long should the walks of a 8 week old pup be ? how much should she sleep ? why is she not eating ? what words do i teach her first ? what can i do about car sickness ? why does she not like mirrors and bark at reflections ? why does she not like dark corridors ? uh oh her feet are stung by nettles this looks like an epileptic fit now in pain what do i do ? all sorts...sigh sigh...and the reading one thinks...uh oh...should have thought of that BEFORE ! now i am in a million questions mode and she is only a few weeks with me !! LOL !!! but ? surely ALL the points made are common to pups somewhere somehow ! LOL ! and we have particularlities too...all the stuff about don't curb her natural drives or she won't be good for various skills those drives use...that one bothers me the most i have to say. and then ? all the LATEST THEORIES of not spanking ! negotiating ! oooh i cease...she just too dislike to some muslim headwear...hats upset dogs generally...and muslims do not like Black dogs in particular, the prophet had a bad experience with one Gabriel did not visit due to one being around...so everyone senses hostility and is on edge let alone the Beauceron that cannot STAND them since kicked as a pup by them so everyone is arguing and in conflict telling others dogs are not demons and should not be kicked...sigh sigh..NO POINT MENTIONING THE READING OF THE LATEST THEORIES TO THAT LOT i don't think ! they needed a LIKE DOGS book first ! LOL !!! they keep coming to buy the milk at the farm though...but now there is FULL BLACK DEMON DOG there ! my pup !! LOL !!! didn't DARE kick her i add...my bite is worse than hers if they had. scuttled off fed up with farmer and i talking DOGS however ! LOL !!! i was on about these dratted useless TREATS i just got at the vets !!

ENOUGH !!! but ? have a laugh and enjoy i suggest...my GROWING PAINS !! LOL

>on the agility i see that running up a plank is not the first thing that comes to my pup's mind last friday...had to be pushed gently up it...

I believe it's inadvisable to start dogs actually on the agility equipment until they're a year old, to minimise the risk of injury.

>how long should the walks of a 8 week old pup be ?

They shouldn't behaving walks at all at 8 weeks - they shouldn't go on the ground outside their own garden until 2 weeks after the second DHPL injection, and then they only need very short walks for socialisation and training, not exercise. The general rule for walking puppies of medium-sized breeds upwards is 5 minutes per month of age. A 3 month pup would have walks lasting no longer than 15 minutes. A 4 month pup could have walks of up to 20 minutes once or maybe twice a day.

I have got to ask if you are for real? Sorry but this is sounding like a WUM.

oh ! that old ? well i will have to wait then. I do add we on pup classes use agility stuff to get pups used to bottles rattling and a sliding mat pull and the thing they walk the plank on..holding the pup...it seems ok to do that to me ...gets her unafraid of heights i think. disappointed she cannot do it in classes or seriously til so old as a year, she is hyper...runs like a ferret too much of her own accord. i make sure she sleeps a great deal though and have stopped walks outings in teh fields that involve her rushing around for the ball etc after 20 minutes now. make sure we rest...darn...she is rushing around like a mad hatter with the kitten now...BELTS around the place...leaps everywhere..crashes off things and just throws herself at them again to get at him ! it is not ME that encourages that it is what she does naturally ! if tired ? she ignores the kit and sleeps !

she is 3 months old now...i overdid some walk lenghs earlier yes i realise. carried her when tired though. and it was HER wish to be put down when i put her down i add. i was not looking to tire her.

it did not SAY on websites about agility what AGE dogs had to be here ! i looked ! am at pup classes first anyhows obviously ! where it is fun to see the agility equipment ! i was going to ask to use it privately in fact...doubt i owuld be allowed to...just to get her used to heights etc...seems quite reasonable just holding her walking the planks. nothing strenuous about that. the equip costs a few hundred i noted on some websites. well the BOOKs arrive soon ! they had better mention AGE then hey ! for dumbos like me ! LOL

a wum...well sigh...i am not trying to wind anyone up i recall that is the word in wum. have a look at her website for the evidence of all the activities i talk about, except the pup class agility stuff. i have pics of that not on the web. she is on her website from 8 weeks old, first day in woods, all sorts. she was vaccinated and ok if meeting vaccinated dogs...now she is fully vaccinated since 10 weeks old and rabies vaccin tomorrow finalises all needs. I DID NOT KNOW HOW long to talk her for walks at first ! i forgot to ask that ! just judged by when she was tired ! she is hyper mostly...i INSISTED on sleep when busy on laptop many hours.

and i MUST add...when i see her as now FURIOUSLY CHEWING bottles, papers, toys. biting me for attention ? i think ...ok...has slept enough...wants to have another WALK ! to expend her energy elsewhere not on frustration ! she is playing now at my feet TEARING things to pieces quite happily ! SHE just TOOK HER LEAD in her mouth and brought it to me ! that is my pup asking me in my view to go out ! i have REFUSED her busy replying here and thinking for heavens sake she has been out several times today and expended herself...REST MORE !

jeangenie...i don;t know what these guidelines are obviously...but thinking about them more...seems a bit limited to me ...my pup is active and likes running around. now when i took her walks...i did not have her on lead and she rushed around probably several km per day herself of her own wish in teh fields where we went. i WALKED ! did nto run...EXCEPT a few weeks later when i put her HARNESS and COLLAR on she did nto like and SHE insisted on running 611 meters ALL THE WAY not flat out just gentle run i could keep up with to the bar we usually WALKEd to for a drink ! now that is the only time I HAD TO RUN with her i add. surely...pups rush around frantically and exercise themselves is what i am thinking. so taking her outside and letting her do it there was not that bad. she LIES down and rests in grass all sorts i add at HER initiative. i always let HER decide that. then SHE started up again wanting to rush around fetching ball etc jumping into ditches of water digging carrying her lead and sticks thrown to her and insists i throw them again for her. I add...after a FRANTIC active session INSIDE the house here of charging after the new frisbee knocking things over...she is flat out sleeping now. i much prefer all that to take place OUTSIDE in the field is all i try and do to avoid the chaos it causes here in limited for her space ! she went crash wallop on the tiles again in her rushing around in her own wee out on the balcony ! i mop it up fast of course, but she just rushes around madly all excited here !

AND jeangenie...i have SEEN PICTURES on French belgian dog forums...of pups who CHEWED THE ENTIRE CABLES ETC of rooms to pieces !!! and i said NOTHING !! but thought...NOT ENOUGH EXERCISE !! these pups are behaving in a PSYCHOTIC WAY due to lack of exercise !

i am not having Fairy CHEW my place to pieces to give her rest ! if she wants to chew ? i TAKE HER OUT ! energy elswhere i say to that !

tell me i am wrong if you like...but the alternative to not walkies ? A CHEWED UP HOUSE ??? NON MERCI !

the only other dog i had for a short while that chewed the house carpets to pieces ? was a WELSH BORDER COLLEY..HATED being INSIDE the house....suburbia...went to a farm after a few weeks of me seeing how unhappy it was with its home with me. other dogs i had did not have this high energy that i see in this pup i add. seemed more NORMAL for sure. i have a big flat...100m2 area several rooms and outside balcony. it is NOT a place i want a dog exercising wildly in though ! fairy no longer targets internet cables...1 day was enough...i said NON to that...she plays with anything but that now...but i take her out yes a great deal...as SHE seems to need it ...i would not do it otherwise i assure you not wanting to tire a pup of course. one day i hope she will RUN with me...but i was ready to wait 8 months i thought for her legs to get strong enough...what she does now ? is entirely of HER choice. i carry her let her sleep on my lap anytime she is tired or bored at bars and anyway don't let her rush around bars of course. in fields ? it is ALL HER freedom i give her...and she does NOT want to come in at the end of what i think reasonable 30 minutes even time of rushing around. I do though ! lol !

Pups do have mad run arounds perfectly normal behaviour, they generally have short bursts at this age lasting no longer than 10 mins often much shorter where they have a burst of mad energy, this is fine and how a pup expells any excess energy as continual walking will damage your pup, so I am glad you came on the forum to find out that it is dangerous to your pups joints to over exert. Playing games with your pup is far better, it developes a good bond between you also and exercises her body and mind.

The 5 minute rule that JG has already mentioned you should stick to for walks and then good games and training will give her plenty of stimulation.

Re:  The food treats, I've always wrapped some chicken or mince meat in tin foil and kept it in my pocket to give bit by bit as a treat.  People often use cheese, but make sure any treats are worked into her daily food intake also. Or have you thought of soaking the treats the vet gave you in warm water for a while, pups often turn their noses up at dry treats but if soaked seem to like them then. :-)

thx. i am very concerned now obviously. just emailed my breeder saying i want a word with him on friday about this. i do not want her legs damaged. she pushes herself i can see often. just THROWS herself around. i do admit the weekend with the English Setter adult dog we went out 2 times for a 40 minutes long walk with ? that was excessive...she RAN with him all the time...took the LEAD even far away from us...her legs and body crashed several times on the run...she just gets up again and rushes again. it is impossible to stop her unless i put her on a lead and restrained her. the answer is to limit her obviously with a hunting dog ! lol...laughable so obvious now but stupid at the time...his wife said to me...the pup will not be able to keep up you will end up carrying her...i said ok i will carry her but of course FAIRY did not WANT that at all. LOVED the fun...ABSOLUTELY DELERIOUS with happiness on those 2 morning runs with that dog...she was very impressive i must say...energy and willpower amazing for a dog like that...a huge English Setter used to really long runs on duck trails.

she picked up on his behaviour i add...watches now for BIRDS...and lifts her paw ! lol ! she might be a retriever in time ! BUT NOT YET I AGREE !

soaking the treats...will try that...sigh...she HATES dry food.

http://www.obcarskas.eu/resources/webchasssenemofeenoire.JPG that was them together close up...beautiful setter...

I'm sure you'd be able to find all kinds of 'human food' treats that Fairy will like - I can think that perhaps some pieces of saucisson sec, little bits of ham or hard cheese, will be good! Whatever you use, cut into tiny pieces the size of a pea, no bigger.... this is enough and will keep her wanting more, without adding to her waistline.

Or perhaps she will enjoy a little game with a tuggy instead? You can keep one in your pocket and see if that is a good enough reward for her. The tuggy rewqard might be a way of allowing her to expend some energy too, without too much running around.

>tell me i am wrong if you like...but the alternative to not walkies ? A CHEWED UP HOUSE ???

Training. Using the brain is far more tiring than using their bodies, and less damaging to joints. You can exercise and exercise and exercise, and end up with a very fit dog that's still bored out of its brain.

Loads of physical exercise on a developing skeleton is notorious for aggravating hip dysplasia.

yes jj...i ordered the frisbee...and i need other games toys challenges...just for first time ever shut the study door on her...she is into hyper bite me mode...ignoring all other toys to bite offered...sigh...the barks will start sooon...yes...didi not get far...excuse me...jumping on my bed out of her way for the past 10 minutes is not wearing her out...sigh...it is 22.30 nearly at night here in france...just not my time of day ! bedtime for me ! sch...must go see to the barking pup...bit inhibition...well reading not poss right now with needle teetth aimed at all my skin !

she has settled with her turtile soft toy...biting it to death...hip probs...well of course i want to avoid all this excess exercise...healthy exercise is whta i want for her...goodnight...will try and say the DODO words and go to bed now...

what other toys to tire her brain suggestions ? oooh bedtime...will look in morning..it is HXXX here right now..

With praise I find many shep type dogs are praise orientated. Also if the dog doesn't get too much attention it will be praise orientated.

Adam

Hello Noelle,

A belated 'welcome to the Forum' from me! I see you are making full use of the facility and good for you I say :-)
   I wouldn't pay too much attention the comments made about 'you' by some members, it takes all sorts to make a world... and to be honest it'd be pretty dull if everyone where to have the same posting style (we'd be the Stepford dog owners not the Stepford wives ;-)) I think as long as people are mindful of their manners, respectful of acceptable behavior, of others and the Terms of service of this forum then its your thread/topic to formulate as you like. (there is an 'ignore' option on this forum if people don't like it ;-))
   Lots of posts in a short period of time just shows what a great forum this is, people stumble across it and finally find a place where pretty much all questions can be answered and where we all learn something new everyday! Who wouldn't want to take full advantage of that.

I think 'Dogsababe' hit the nail on the head, you do need to slow down a tad though! Calm and consistency wins the day with training.Do the basics well.
    Which is why I'm going to post a link to an excellent article It was written by Turid Rugaas (a Norwegian Trainer who is greatly respected Internationally) The Puppy and the Young Dog - About Growing Up I think it will give you a very good insight into how/why and what it all means when Black Fairy is interacting with you!
     And this really is the crucial foundation stone to you then building your training that you're learning and for that training to succeed.

I wish you the best of luck!
Calm, calm.... be her rock and she'll become yours.

i can manage just one reply right now while pup and kitten are engaged in who can kill who the best...at least distracted from biting me...that kitten...gets THROTTLED by my pup...and it JUMPS on her full claws out...the pup backs off with rump in its face often...

now HUSKIES !! oh...before i launch into that at a tangent latin style...i appreciate any comments meant for the welfare of my pup...THAT is what i am here for...i have a thick skin personally i add...not easily offended at all...except if anyone suggests i lie...oooh...not done here...but careful i bite on that and a frog forum got a legal warning from me that once was enough...my pup understands that concept...so humans should take note...i said there were such things as short haired black malinois...and there are...of course not a breed standard...but that does not mean they do not exist to say what it was about...never mind that...

huskies...i will read the link tomorrow when more compus mentus...past my bedtime...i awake at 5am naturally ...those are ALL THE RAGE in frogland...of course totally unmanaged by owners...could tell you stories ! strays...biters...all sorts of problems with them due to owners treating them as fashion accessories...YVES SAINT LAURENT is NOTHING compared to having a HUSKY right now in France !...bedtime...bonsoir !

> You've been given a lot of good advice over several different topics about how to handle your young puppy but I'm unsure about how much you're really listening to what has been said.  It certainly seems that you may be attempting to do too much with your young puppy and that you have expectations of her that are better suited to a mature dog.
>

Exactly the conclusion that I came to some time back.  Enthusiastically accepting advice, which, from later posts, is more than obvious has been ignored.  I give up.

>i need other games toys challenges...just for first time ever shut the study door on her...she is into hyper bite me mode...

Just like toddlers, puppies don't recognise when they're getting overtired and need a nap, and then they get all tetchy and grouchy and tiresome! It can be very difficult recognising when they're getting too wound up before it actually happens, but that's when a stuffed Kong or a nice juicy bone in a crate can be a Godsend at defusing the tension and encouraging the pup to slow down and rest. A properly rested pup is a happier pup and much more easily managed. Bless her, she still needs several naps each day.

> jeangenie...i don;t know what these guidelines are obviously...but thinking about them more...seems a bit limited to me ...my pup is active and likes running around

Your puppy is a baby, and like human babies needs lots of rest in order to develop properly.

A human baby that weighs 3kg at birth takes some 14 - 16 years to grow to nearly adult size, say 50 - 70kg, and often children can suffer growing pains during periods of rapid growth.

A puppy of your breed will reach approximately 20kg by 9 or 12 months, and started off at less than Half a kg, that is 40 times birth weight in under a year compared to 14 years for human to get 20 times birth weight.

A newborn baby will put on about 25g a day, so does a newborn puppy that weighs a tiny fraction of a baby's weight.

At 3 months your puppy will be growing at about 1kg a week.

So you can see that the rate of growth means that any over exertion, accidents, walking on ah rd human made surfaces, climbing stairs, jumping off furniture can cause damage to such fast growing body parts.  Your puppy could end up with crooked bones, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, etc, and also not grow properly.

sometimes Young creatures will not give in to tiredness.  My daughter was like that sh would get so tired she would become really hyped up, until she was pulling her own hair, I had to learn to make her rest before she got like this..

Exactly the conclusion that I came to some time back.  Enthusiastically accepting advice, which, from later posts, is more than obvious has been ignored.  I give up.

I agree, looking back at other post from Black fairy, this is the conclusion I came to or its just one big WU.

An excellent post, Brainless, explaining how expecting adult responses, behaviour and sense from a puppy is foolish in the extreme.