I have become aware of a brood bitch and possibly a stud dog for sale from a puppy farm. These dogs get no quality of life and the bitch is very thin having been bred from every season since goodness knows when. She is 5 or 6 years old.

Would it be considered wrong to buy them in the same way as not buying puppies ie. would I just be making room for another one?

I just feel terribly sad for these particular dogs.

Sadly there will already be another one what you will be doing is clearing away the business rubbish and paying for the privilege. I do understand your desire to give this pair a better life and in your place I would probable do the same.

Although I feel terribly sorry for these animals I feel very strongly that buying them and 'rescuing' them only facilitates the puppy farmer to carry on the vile trade with new stock. Others disagree - there's no right answer.

In reality, yes, you would be making way for the next batch of puppy machines. The bitch has probably been bred half to death and more than likely has a daughter or two to keep things ticking along.

So  yes, head says no but the heart...its not so easy is it? What is going to happen to them if you don't have them, do you know?

I feel so torn

To these individual dogs, to be able to live out their days as 'normal' dogs, going for walks and cuddling on our laps in the evenings in front of the tv, surely they deserve a break?

Rocknrose

Apparently they will be sold to another breeder in Wales; this particular puppy farmer is moving away from this breed

I know it's a dreadful thing to say, but what would happen to these ex-breeding dogs/bitches if homes weren't found for them?  Either way they already have replacements lined up :-( :-( :-(

> but what would happen to these ex-breeding dogs/bitches if homes weren't found for them?  Either way they already have replacements lined up

It may be dreadfully painful to walk away from this and similar situations but if we give them one brass razoo, we buy into the filthy trade.
Before long, the farmers will be breeding dogs for rescue, rather like the vast puppy auctions in the US where a great number of the puppies from the Amish are bought by the rescues.
Where will it end?

I know you are right really Tooolz

Very very hard to just turn away though

I agree with what others have said about you taking these dogs on and it making way for the puppy farmer to carry on but from another point of view this is may what happen:

A friend of mine (well a lovely lady I know who rescues animals) occasionally gets older Chinese Crested dogs - bitches.  I asked why she takes these ex breeding bitches on when it makes room for the so called 'breeder' to do the same thing over and over again.  The answer was simple, this lady knows that if someone doesn't home these bitches they are pts...this have been proved in the past.  So Tallulah and Tabitha found a lovely home with my friend and although were very under socialised they have got a lovely home rather than being pts.

So maybe that is also something to consider.

I would have imagined they would be PTS if no homes found. So someone not offering such dogs a forever home won't actually stop these low life cretins from continuing their cruel practice.

The only way to stop puppy farmers is to educate the public not to consider a puppy from anyone other than a reputable breeder who is dedicated to their breed and who breeds for themself and not to flood the pet market ! But we all know that anyway.

if they are pedigrees would your breed club welfare be able to help ?ours dont generally buy dogs but try to negioate with people to save dogs that they feel are at risk,  i know it doesnt stop the puppy farmers and you are damed if you do and damed if you dont, it maybe woth having a word with their welfare person.

Almost impossible to turn away.   Once a bitch has finished her breeding life I would imagine that they are pts as others have posted - how sad is that, and the newest breeding machine will already have been installed.

are puppy farms illegal? Or only if they dont have the appropriate license? Just wondering if you  could report it if its bad enough?

I think you will find that the term 'puppy farm' is used to describe an establishment that in the main breeds lots of different breeds in large numbers, some concentrate on a smaller number of breeds.   Breeding establishments have to be licensed by their local authority, lots of rules and conditions, how many bitches you can keep before you need a licence etc., there is a 'Breeding and Sale of Dogs Welfare Act'.

It still would not change the fact that once breeding bitches are past their breeding life, they have to be taken out of the equation by various means, because they would no longer be cost effective.

Others on this forum will have more information.

In principle I do agree with the others - in practice, seeing the dogs in front of you, it's much harder. Do you think you can negotiate so you get them but don't actually part with any money to the foul person?

Puppy farms are not illegal but to mistreat or not provide basic care and conditions is, if you find underweight animals, dirty or inadequate conditions or injured dogs then it should be reported.

Before long, the farmers will be breeding dogs for rescue, rather like the vast puppy auctions in the US where a great number of the puppies from the Amish are bought by the rescues.

There already is at least one wellknown rescue here that happily takes in very large numbers of ex puppy farm breeding dogs, no doubt enabling those puppy farms to easily and quickly re-stock. :(

We are all human though and I know if I was faced with the situation, SAW the dog, was offered it -no I couldn't walk away no matter. Which is why I never go inside petshops that sells dogs and cats.

I can understand how you feel but no way would I be handing over any money for these dogs - tell him you will take them as rescues at least then you won't be lining his pockets!

yes i agree ,i wouldnt pay alot of money but if they would pts then they get nothing for them ,so offer them a token!

How heart wrenching for you, I understand how your head is telling you no and your heart telling you yes. As other people have said chances are these two have already been replaced with younger 'breeding stock'. I know a lady who rescued a bitch from similar circumstances she had, had 6 litters and she was barely 6 years old, she was skinny and her teats were dragging on the ground, she was a sorry sight. but after having her spayed and giving her some good quality food and lots of TLC she has blossomed  and is a beautiful gentle little thing and is a great companion for her other dog. I know someone in my breeds who does welfare and on one  occasion a puppy farmer wanting to have a 'clear out' of their older bitches told her that if she didnt come to collect them by a certain time they would just take them out to the field and shoot them!! she arrived at this 'puppy farm' to find the farmer ready with his gun about to acutally shoot these poor bitches, so his threat was not idle at all as she has initially thought? So I dread to think what happens to ex breeding stock if they cant re-home them. I cannot see them even having the compasion to have them pts humanely as they havent given a dam about their welfare while they have been producing puppies for them. So to me if you have the room and can negotiate a 'sensible' price for them I would most definitly take them and give them a life they have never had.

> they would just take them out to the field and shoot them!!

If I'd just lived my entire life in a shed, pregnant my entire life,wearing an eartag because nobody knows my name, I'd want to be shot too!

A blessed release for a poor animal which cant take its own life and has to endure.

The only sensible price would be free, saves them the cost of a a bullet, as that is of course what happens to them, or they try to squeeze just a bit more money out of them by emotional black mail to rescues.

> I can understand how you feel but no way would I be handing over any money for these dogs - tell him you will take them as rescues at least then you won't be lining his pockets!

This is exactly what I would do, and I think the best way to deal with the situation. If you don't take them chances are they'll meet a foul end, it's unlikely the puppy farmer will pay to have them put to sleep properly, more likely they'll be dispatched with a shovel :(  However, I would not be parting with any money whatsoever for them, the puppy farmer shouldn't profit even more from the poor souls, and they're likely to cost you some money in vets bills too getting them healthy again.

Yes there are worse fates than death.

For many of these unsocialised little animals integrating into normal life is impossible/difficult.

If they don't come round, then they will not make the happiest and best of pets if they have lots of hang-ups and issues.

Suitable only for really experienced owners.

> Yes there are worse fates than death.
>
> For many of these unsocialised little animals integrating into normal life is impossible/difficult.
>

I agree, I've rescued battery hens, I know they don't compare to dogs, they have the brain of a pea, but it's taken a full year to get them back into good health, they've now picked up on what it is to be a chicken.

I think to rescue these poor little breeding machines just perpetuates the whole situation, that's my head talking because like others I know if I saw one I try my best to help.

Therefore I would avoid such places and PTS is the best option.

These places just provide 'cheap meat' and they make me feel sick but then JP knows no better.

I understand they will be timid and life in a real 'home' will not be easy for them.

Brainless, you are right, although I have always had dogs from childhood I wouldn't class myself as a dog expert (far from it!)

I have met these 2 dogs; they are both very friendly if a little excitable but both really love human attention. Makes me wonder if they came from an unsuspecting good home.

I realise they wouldn't be trained in any sense of the word whatsoever.

I have even thought to take them and have them humanely PTS.

I realise they are not my responsibility, but should we all just turn away from suffering.

This lady is pressuring me for a decision now

No one can give you the answer- You need to do what you think is right. No matter what that is it will be right for you.x

No, we should not all turn away from suffering.

Many years ago I brought home a FCR that at the age of 12 months had had her first litter from the local wandering stud dog in the village. (I had to pay to get her, this was before our breed rescue existed).  Her owners ran a sanctuary for other animals, they also had a female golden retriever that was allowed to live in the house, the FCR was banished to the garage the wife did not like her.

When I got her home she was that frightened that she screamed when she saw my other dogs, she also was petrified of women, on her belly, crawling on the ground.   It took me 6 months to be able to get a collar and lead on her, every time she saw one she went to the ground and would not move.   Unfortunately she could not bear to be in the same room as other female dogs. After a lot of hard work, time and patience we were able to home her with my cousin who took her home and she settled in very well, he also had a male retriever with whom she was at ease with, and after a while with no threats from female dogs in the household became a different dog and lived her entire life on his farm until she died at the age of 12.

It has to be your decision, no one can make that for you, but take on board all the comments - if you can turn the life around for these dogs that has to be a wonderful thing to attempt to do.

It's very difficult isn't it, a bit like 'the chicken and the egg.' Ideally it is best to just not look, to not be tempted at all by pup or adult in the first place and to turn your back on anything near or resembling a P/F in person or on a website not to even read it and to walk away, that would be my advice to never look in the first place.

But, darn it you looked, and worse still there is now the picture of a very thin bitch of 5 or 6 used and abused and looking for a loving home along with the male, now you feel, and now your hooked, along with many others of us too no doubt. :-( (Hands up - big sop right here)

IMO there is no shame in taking on a bitch or dog like this. I firmly believe in continuing to walk away from the pups if the pups have to be destroyed through lack of interest I can stomach that as they have only been on the planet for a matter of weeks or months, and it would lead to an end of P/F's, whereas the adults IMO deserve a life, a chance to be loved and cared for and shown human kindness. Hypocritical I know, but just how I personally feel.

If you do take on these dogs though, do so after a vet check. And only once you have thoroughly thought about the longterm reality of possibly giving 10 years to these dogs and not just going by your heart and thinking no further, it is a long commitment. :-)