Forget it, the dog will not mind being touched anywhere you chose to touch them if they have been trained to expect it - I have never had a dog take any notice when I touch their rear ends and even if not being shown the dogs needs grooming and care from the teeth to genitals it they are used to grooming care and examination then they will not notice it.

Every owner of an intact male should be checking their testicles every time they groom so why would they consider it an attack on their dignity when it is done by the vet or anyone else examining the dog to make sure it is sound and healthy.

well when i read that show report and read several dogs growled, for me it was a revelation of course, never read a report on a show before that...and i thought hey ! this could be an issue !

and of course thought next...handle my pup and get her used to handling then...not that she is male...but she has sensitive parts too of course. and moods. takes possible dislikes to people for no obvious reason, even if judges are dog friendly by nature. i must continue to get her used to me messing with her with the brush etc. lol...she is more inclined right now to roll on her back for strokes actually ! i cease. a habit she has...sleeps like that too...on her back ! exposed ! excuse me saying that i am pleased she is not a male ! i find my sister's great dane stood in front of me when i am trying to watch tv not a pretty sight right in front of my eyes .. huge and blocks my view totally of the tv  ! lol...schh...

>i take a growl as a warning from a dog...not sure what else it means...it must be hard to get dogs to accept ANYONE doing that to them !
>when i read that show report and read several dogs growled,

From the same KC page that I posted earlier:
"*It simply is not acceptable that a dog displays aggression in competition. If your dog growls, or otherwise shows aggression, the judge will immediately exclude the dog from the ring, and from further competition. It is of paramount importance that your dog has an entirely stable temperament when attending any canine event."

Show dogs and bitches need to be trained from their youngest days to allow any stranger to feel them all over.

well ! i do tend to agree of course with that...and was surprised to read dogs growled at judges in that Fr report of a show...i am new to all this obviously...my pup does not growl when stroked ! and i intend to keep it that way ! obviously the dogs that did that here got a bad comment as in the report...but had many good points made about them. obviously more tolerant in France it seems to me ! they are class dogs those i read about ! recognise all the names of the lines !

> well ! i do tend to agree of course with that...and was surprised to read dogs growled at judges in that Fr report of a show...i am new to all this obviously...

Do you have Ringcraft classes for dogs in France? Where you go to train them for shows?

>Show dogs and bitches need to be trained from their youngest days to allow any stranger to feel them all over.

In fact I'd go further and say that all dogs and bitches should be trained from their youngest days to allow any stranger to examine them all over. It makes a vet's life much easier!

I often advise my puppy buyers to go to Ringcraft if they can just for the socialisation opportunity, it is very different to the obedience classes.

oh, well i will ask her breeders tomorrow...not seen anything specific in France for show training ...agility, obedience, tracking etc...there must be show training though of course there must. tomorrow will ask.

Hi Black Fairy
I currently own a Terv and have owned two others previously. I love the breed.
I agree, you do not want to use physical punishment on them. You can, if you understand the training, get them to a very high standard without using that. A Crufts Obedience winner here, Freya, with Lynn Luckock, a few years ago won the Obedience and she is a clicker user!

Belgians are so very clever, loyal and intelligent. They do, I believe, have a sense of humour too, sodont expect them to be perfect dogs even when grown, but instead ensure you too have humour so that you can enjoy what they bring you in life :)

Re the turd eating - usually it is instinct, as to dogs it  is normal behaviour.
You do need to "think dog" and not try to apply human standards and moral to them :)

Sometimes there can be a problem with health (if I recall, it occasionally may be due to a liver problem but I cannot quite remember).

I'd suggest finding a good puppy class (are there any good organisations in your area? like the apdt in the UK?) as badlyrun ones can be awful. See here:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/choosing_dog_trainer_uk.asp

And get some good books - Gwen Bailey's Perfect Pupppy is very good, plus anything of Ian Dunbar's, Pat McConnell, Jean Donaldson. Oh, do read "The Culture Clash" as I think it may help you "think dog" a bit more :)

But in a nutshell yes, you can train BSDs with kind but effective training methods. No need for punishment. Hopefully some of the books mentioned will be available to you.

Lindsay
x

I knew it looked different! :-o But at least the dominance-debunking was there. :-)

I knew it looked different!  But at least the dominance-debunking was there. 

LOL! :)
True!

Lindsay
x

> ...i spanked her for attacking me

12 week old puppies do not attack!  Perfectly normal puppy behaviour, it's the way they play.  On one of your other threads about bully boy tactics, someone has already given you information on this behaviour.

JeanSw...i dare to contradict you on the statement that a 12 week old pup does not attack...please, believe me that i play games where my pup bites and pulls on my arms clothes...reducing it as she is getting stronger, and her attitude then was NOT the same as the moment she as i said TURNED on me...she meant business...hard to believe maybe, and  i am covered in little bite marks from play with her ...i have been an idiot to let her do that so strongly, she loves doing it i add...brings me the ball and then grabs my arm and tugs it wildly...searching for flesh too...gets annoyed if i let her have only the sleeve and move my arm back...lol !!! on the bad occasion i described. i may have misread her mood...but it was very very different a tone towards me than i have ever seen before or since in her. that was why i  hit her. she came back at me furious twice still ...i did nto hit her that hard obviously, i am not a brute ! i just wanted to let her know...you do that to me madame and you get the same back...or similar...and i do NOT want that "discussion" with my pup again of course. it was HORRIBLE. i was very very upset. she was too of course.

I add...i do NOT TEASE my puppy...i got nervous yesterday when a stranger French guy did that...she is not used to it...got frustrated and her barks were different to normal. now of course i hear her frustrated irritated barks sometimes if overexcited and can't get at the kitten or what she wants like getting on the sofa or bed...but i do not TEASE her with those things...i help her out as she i think is ASKING for me to...likes me to lift her up etc...the TEASING by witholding a ball too long from her as done yesterday by someone else i was uneasy about i admit..seems to increase aggression in her...which i am not trying to do. just play.

she is great at ball fetching. charges off and brings it back..grabs my arms with her paws to push them down and sit on them...and lets me take the ball eventually. i do not insist. it is a game. she carries many things she sees me carrying...drags my shopping bag even...her lead...for the ENTIRE walk i add...to the door ! and inside to her nests ! LOL !

That is not attacking it is playing, the only way a pup will learn it by experimentation, your pup is just playing and following the lead you have given her, if she does something you don't like you attack her and she is now doing as you do - please do find someone sensible to talk to about dogs behaviour, I have no idea who you are getting your ideas from but they are misleading you. To read your posts it is impossible to think you are talking about a real 12 week old puppy or that you are mistaking play biting for aggression.

I am agreeing that spanking is not what i will do with her now. i did it once on that aweful day over a conflict i did not understand. all sorts were involved. the dog pooh eating, the fact she sensed i was about to put her in the car she hates. i am ordering some of these books suggested here, and today we have our first puppy class locally in France Toulouse south.

Do not make the mistake in thinking that just because she is good at somethings now that it will stay that way. I have had pups who have been lovely at 12 weeks and then become monsters when adolescence hits. Socialising and training is ongoing - never think you have cracked it until they are fully grown. Pride comes before a fall as they say.
What you describe about tugging your arm sounds like over excited play, not aggression, although you smacking her sounds like you escalated it into agression, particuarly if you say she did it a further 2 times. This is why we advise against smacking.

ooh i quite agree, breeders warned me, ado (adolescence...cant spell it right now...am not good on spelling..French say Ado for short same word used) period is HELL with Belgians ! schh..not wanting to put others off them though ! and i accept her play biting for sure. the ONE time i turned on her was over that unmentionable POOH EATING moment...it was THEN she retaliated to my hit on her by TWICE coming back at me..it was over in seconds...but she was INTENT on NOT ACCEPTING my hit on her ...i read her well...it was a DEFIANCE different to how she plays yes defiantly biting for play that i have trouble now stopping due to my stupidity. so ? i have learnt that hitting her when in a temper as she was is not going to result in anything more than even MORE aggression from her towards me...i doubt she would hold back if i did it again to her...i had to hold her down to stop her ! i could not BELIEVE she did not fear me and back down ! a puppy ! 12 weeks old ! and the first time i turned nasty on her ! schh..it is over now. not starting that up again.

> ...but she was INTENT on NOT ACCEPTING my hit on her

She was defending herself from what to her was to her a totally unreasonable action on your part, Belgians have enough gumption to do so.

When a dog or pup is in a fearful/stressful situation nature gives them several options of how to react, fight, flight or Freeze, which the animal chooses to use will depend on innate characteristics and, experience.

In her eyes it was you that attacked her out of the blue.  She had no concept of poo eating being wrong, it as what she felt inclined to do.

yes she was obsessed with it. it is ok now...she even looks at me when we see one on the streets without touching it...it made her very ill.

I would also recommend the great little book: "Calming Signals - on talking terms with dogs" by Turid Rugaas. I think you will find it quite an eye-opener! :)

many thanks...i am all for this stuff

Hi all, I am a Brit who moved to France several years ago.  I show my dogs here and go to obedience and agility training classes.  As far as I know there is not any ringcraft classes here, I've not found any!! The training for shows is done at home and at the shows, as a novice exhibitor, I could really do with classes but rely on judges and other exhibitors to help me with my mistakes at shows.  The French in general do not clean up after their dogs even at shows, although sometimes there are people going around with bins and shovels to clean up the mess.  At most shows exhibitors are given "poo bags" to encourage them to clean up, some use them most don't!  I have often seen dogs being hit/slapped quite often around the face, at shows and at the training club.  People are being taught modern methods of training with kindness and reward but France does seem to be behind the UK in this and so dogs are still being hit occassionally.  Good socialisation is also not widely done in France although most good breeders are advising new owners that this should be done with puppies as early as possible and more training clubs are opening all the time.  Aggression at shows, I've seen this a fair bit at shows but not so much in the ring, especially in my breed (Golden Retriever) but again people who want to show their dogs must socialise them completely and that includes touching the dog all over including sensitive areas, even so a dog shouldn't growl at the judge for any reason.  I was at a show recently where a dog in the open class for confirmation (French registered dogs have to be confirmed by a judge as being a good example of their breed before they get their pedigree, and therefore can be used at stud or for breeding), this dog growled at everything else in the ring, and showing it's teeth, I thought it was a good chance for the judge to protect the breed and refuse the confirmation, she knew what was going on, but alas it didn't happen she confirmed it.  Things are changing in France but slowly, it can be very frustrating at times.  Good luck with your puppy Black Fairy.

Jan 

mon dieu ! what revelations i read here ! and merci bien pour tout ca ! my breeders show...so i was surprised they did not mention ring training...and their own dogs were growling and accepted by the judges as i saw...wow...and generally yes corporal punishment here is the norm...for dogs...anything that is an animal...although the Belgian dog forum was against it...Belgian dogs are considered hyper sensitive was the reason given...and they are i believe judging by my pup...wow...off now to general pup training socialisation ! mon dieu ! growls allowed there too ? horror of horrors ! will see !!

> JeanSw...i dare to contradict you on the statement that a 12 week old pup does not attack...

A 12 week old pup is not aggressive.  Whatever contradiction you put on the subject.  You later commented on your dogs DEFIANCE!  I didn't know whether to laugh cry.  You are putting human traits on a canine.  You are dominating your dog, so making it more likely to retaliate as an adult.  After all the advice and help you have been given, I despair, I really do.

do not despair ! i am clear that following advice here, and yesterday at pup class first time breeder reproched me 1st for not giving titbits when pup comes or does anything...positive rewards are in with my breeder too it seems ! i resisted 3 advices given to me by them i add...met her brother there...his owners are not covered in play bite marks like me as they practiced bite inhibition from the start...i now have to tell my pup what i allowed is not allowable so hard anymore...my arms are all bruised and cut from her "play" that i never punish her for. i have high pain tolerance. 2nd advice...no harness...i put a normal collar on yesterday...breeder said she is not a sledge dog ! yet vet advised it and many dogs wear them around here. 3rd advice. breeder said also she was defending herself. he did say it was aggressive as i keep maintaining it was totally different to her bites and behaviour towards me normally when she is very bite minded for play...i watched her...,have a video am about to sort our online...of her constantly playing with bigger brother constantly biting him...she loves doing that...flattened him on the ground ...lay on top of him...constantly launching herself to play with teeth...normal for pup of course...but she has high drive if that is the term and has great pleasure in using mouth !

My current Belgian Terv was known as "mad bitey puppy" as she has been the mouthiest dog I've ever had. It is hard, BUT you can follow good advice - eg here:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/Playbiting.pdf use the button to enlarge to 100%

and in time (and it will take time, think of around 20-22 weeks of age for a young Belgian) the nipping, mouthing and biting will cease. What you will then have is a young dog who has very good bite inhibition. This is so important. If you stop it straight away, then the dog may grow up to have hard bites. Remember, all the time, they are learning :)  She is a baby - a baby alligator yes (hehe) but still a baby. She will give you so much love if you treat her well and don't give her cause to become defensive.

I mainly used the advice in the link above, also redirected her onto suitable tug toys. IF I came downstairs and she was bitey, I remembered next time to drop kibble on the floor so that she was redirected onto that. Do it before she starts biting if you can, and her habit will alter. I also played games with her, and if her mouth touched my hand, the game ended and I walked away. If you find yourself getting really fed up, use a house line (never leave her alone with this on, ever!) and say "ah" as she bites, then calmly with no talking remove her out the roomusing the hous eline.

Only leave her outside for a few seconds literally, then let her back in, this will be repeated many times but I found it a great help. It's all about helping the pup understand things - we have to learn to communicate in their language, andto "think dog" all the time, as they cannot "think human".

Also remember not to put human morals or reasons for behaviour onto her - dogs dont have morals and don't think like us (eg defiance).

You have a great breed there - enjoy :)

Lindsay
x

hi Lindsey, just read this extra article  you sent...and good to know it does end in some months time...lol...but it has started by me to dissuade her now as advised...my ARMS ARE COVERED WITH CUTS AND BRUISES !!! LOL ! agony now when she seizes them ! the other bad habit she learnt fast when i was dissuading her ? take a stong NIP hard on my inner legs !! YEEOUCH ! or jump in annoyance or something at me defiance and grab my clothes and hang on permanently there shaking her head wildly ! she is an absolute terror for it ! yesterday at pup classes...i watched an videod her mauling her larger brother constantly...by his neck mostly ! flattening him...her jaws open permanently at him ! she hits the ground with mouth open teech snapping and legs flailing to launch off again even ! LOL ! i started having to GET ON MY BED out of her reach yesterday...she BARKED furiously !! but withdrawing the attraction of my bruised to pieces skin is necessary now !

I have put 2 pics on my website and the link too...if others learn from my mistakes all well and good...my arms do look horrid !

http://www.obcarskas.eu/resources/pourquoiilnefautpasjouercommecaavecchiot.JPG

>i started having to GET ON MY BED out of her reach yesterday...she BARKED furiously !!

She was probably barking because she was so excited at the great game you were playing with her. "Jumping on a bed? What fun!! Let me up to play too!"

Puppies very much reflect the behaviour of the people around them - excitable, reactive people tend to have excitable, reactive dogs; calm, quiet people tend to have calm, quiet dogs.

well yes it was not nasty barking just wanting to play...i got the message ! she is hyper...well i would not say i am hyper i add...i am a morning person, she is evenings, she is just starting to be active now...10am in the morning...i have been up hours ...i let her do as she likes a great deal i think...she has grown in confidence enormously...gets so much of it from me...i focus a great deal on her....but she is very very calm and well behaved when i am busy or talking to people...seems to read me well for that no problems at all i was surprised...she will calm down and not fuss me if i am talking or busy on laptop ! clever pup i say to that ! lol

those marks on my arms, are my fault of course...and i have NEVER SPANKED OR SHOUTED at my pup for playing hard with me like that. i let her do it...did not mind the pain for a few weeks if it pleased her. now of course i cannot bear the pain so well as there is not much spare skin left unbitten ! LOL ! we do it to ourselves hey !

Just reading the whole thread- Is it possible you have a puppy with a very high prey drive that you are unconciously encouraging with tug games etc. Also when withholding the ball and her speaking out- These are skills someone who wants to do working tials with would love and value in a dog but not maybe a pet owner. I wonder if perhaps this is worth thinking about. Do you want to work her like this? If so there are training clubs which will show you how to make the most of these behavious but also very importantly how to teach the dog to switch them off when not working

I too think that your encouragement of the no-holds-barred games has caused the problem, and I think you know realise it too! The fact that she played with the other puppy in the same way shows that she's simply continuing her play in the way she was in the nest; but if she'd stayed with the others then they would have naturally taught each other moderation by stopping playing when it got too rough - all puppies play rough until they learn that games stop when they assert too much pressure and so the fun (the reward for the behaviour) stops. The worry is, of course, that very soon she's going to be out of the 'puppy licence' stage (where adult dogs are more tolerant of excessively boisterous behaviour) and will possibly get badly hurt by another dog putting her in her place. You really need her to have learned reasonable manners with other dogs (and therefore people too) before that time (around 16 weeks).

When she was little she was biting as hard as she could but her jaws were small and comparatively weak (though the teeth were sharp!). As she grows she will continue to bite as hard as she can unless she is taught that hard pressure = no fun. And as she gets bigger and stronger she will do more and more damage, as you're finding out!

Do you have family who also play with her, or is it just you and her?

i absolutely agree i have encouraged what seems as amm describes to be a high prey drive in her...and to answer the question of her being good for working...yes...i want that very much...she comes from father with agility skills...and her natural behaviour which is more provocative than most pups i saw yesterday at the class and in my experience of the past of dogs...tells me...this pup wants an outlet...so ? i don't want to destroy her drive...i controlled her just now with cows chickens off lead by only words...no shouts...she was keen on getting closer...and chased just a few yards a chicken who ran in front of her...stopped at once when i gave her an order to...she is good at that...

i am trying to find how to use utube to put up a few videos of her behaviour..will be better than my words...

it is just me and her to answer that question..she does NOT try to play with others as she does with me...and kids ? very very gentle...totally different. and we are both alone most of the time. no one else around.
[url=]
http://www.obcarskas.eu/resources/feeetlesvaches.JPG[/url] i can control her outside...see these cows just now....could have taken a kick...she is unafraid...i say NON ATTENDS...doucement...

> Puppies very much reflect the behaviour of the people around them - excitable, reactive people tend to have excitable, reactive dogs; calm, quiet people tend to have calm, quiet dogs.

Thank you for explaining this better than I did.  One of the main comments I get when people visit, is about the calmness.  Assuming, I think, that I have a magical formula.  What people don't realise (if they don't understand dog behaviour) is that my dogs are just picking up my vibes.

I have put 2 pics on my website and the link too...if others learn from my mistakes all well and good...my arms do look horrid !

Oh dear, no wonder you are feeling hard done by, but all preventable, once you have an understanding of your dogs character.

Pups, all have different characters they are often apparent in the litter after a few weeks, and how they behave will make a difference to their pecking orders as they mature, so they play fight from the moment they have teeth and can stand, it is part of their instinctual survival, it is important where a dog stands in it's pack, so they instinctively begin to nip, bite, pull, tug, growl and make aggressive moves and noises, they can be extremely rough but, it is play but also they are weighing each other up, as to which of their littermates will become none confrontational and take a lesser stance on the pecking ladder and which will be the more alpha and intellectual dogs.

A pup will not suddenly stop being a dog just because it now lives with a human it only knows how to react as a pup, it is supposed to play fight, the difference is we get hurt when they play fight. (As you can see by your arm ;-) ) Some pups with more will are the ones who would continue to hold their own in the litter whilst maturing and can appear to us to be little aggressive monsters. But they are not, the important thing with pups like this is the worst thing you can do is playfight with them and instigate tuggy games etc. As you are then acting as another pup for them to match against, one with a strong will, will take you on as yours did, any aggression you show will be stood up to and the bigger the pup gets the more aggressive she will become with her play add in intelligence and she will try to outsmart you too.

So, what you need to do is play training games, retrieve games etc and stimulate her mind, not play fighting games, you make yourself her friend, provider and master, not her competitor. :-)

This should also settle her down to allowing humans to touch and stroke her on any part of her body, if she knows there is to be no confrontational behaviour at all. With age she will learn to treat you differently to her own species as you will not play the same.

Time outs for a few minutes away from her family when she is not compliant will also help, along with long sleeves for now to protect your arms. :-)

well i have never complained about the play biting to her at all, never shouted or smacked. i am trying to give her other things to pulllllthat is what she is after...the pulling tugging...but she is smart...when i offer her a sleeve without my hand or arm in it ? she ignores it and goes for the flesh !! LOL ! she is a smart pup. and i must get the video of her yesterday with her brother...much bigger obviously...she was the smallest pup of the litter...but she walloped him non stop flattened him bit him around the neck all he was doing was trying not to fall over and put his rump to her teeth !! LOL !! the unpleasant incident when she turned on me over a conflict with dog pooh and also sensing car travel was right next to us which she gets sick in...was totally a different pup in sound and behaviour to her play fighting to me...it was defense and attack...i have been told here that is not so...but her voice face behaviour was totally different ...we have NEVER had since such an issue...she NEVER growls at me ..never...and she does NOT play with ANYONE ELSE like this i add ! people she meets she is all nice to ! kids especially can step on her feet pick her up she does nothing like a growl to them just licks them and does not leap on them either with her paws...gentle...the breeders did intruduce her to kids i am pleased to say and she adores them. shame she does not have more to play with ! or dogs ! i thought of getting another pup...but after such a long break from having a dog thought...wait...develop a relationship with this one first. she is not very interested in other dogs...prefers their owners to get fussed over by ! LOL ! quite a madam..

I am inclined to think she has a strong character...wants to be active...do things..and that is where all this energy and drive needs to be diverted...she loves ball fetching...carries her lead....just changed her harness too small now for her to a normal collar...she just grabbed the lead in her mouth and walked like that with it...sigh...she really does not see the need for this lead thing ! lol !!! she lets me hold it however and does not resist...very responsive to my words or a slight resistance on the lead. and i HATE pulling a lead myself...my previous dogs never wore them..years ago...laws have changed...we walked the metro and streets of paris with an old english no problem in the old days...leads tangled around the masses of people i say...sigh sigh...have to use them nowadays of course...

i am sensible...i put her lead on on roads with traffic...the pup is only 12 weeks old but for 2 weeks now has traffic sense...and obeys the halt at kerb command and stops to command off lead easily if a car is coming and we are walking on the road..knows the word for pavement...cant always walk on them here in frogland as people park their cars on them...she just emptied the shopping baskets and pulled out the food she wanted...my food of course...lol...

all other dogs..she provokes to play with...and if they do not play as older ? barks at them...and drives them as last weekend out of the house even. she is rough playing with the kitten and other dogs...with humans ? only me is she rough with.

she did just coming in bark at the neighbour she knows...she is unwilling to have others in my place here...he wasnt but she barked and growled...until approached and made her let him stroke her...she just didn't want him near our place i think. does not bark at people outside of her.

i do not like the neighbour...wonder if she picks up on that. dogs do. my colley used to.

> So, what you need to do is play training games, retrieve games etc and stimulate her mind, not play fighting games, you make yourself her friend, provider and master, not her competitor.

I had problems with Busters play-biting, he was still doing it past 7 months old (he left some big bruises on my sister after jumping up & biting her boob ). Up untill then I had avoided play-fighting with him, for fear of it making him think it was OK to be rough with people, but by 7 months, it was apparent he thought that anyway!

So, I started play-fighting with him and before long he learnt that play-biting was not something he could do at will.

Play-fighting is his favorite game (the only playing he will do) , so it was the perfect way to get the message over - break the rules=the game stops. It really, really helped and apart from just getting his play-biting under controll, it taught him bite force-inhibition while at high-level excitement and taught me how to control him too.

You really have to be able to stay calm & consistent with the rules, but it never taught Buster I was a competitor in the slightest.

ooh i am all for distracting the little madam off my arms and body ! she bites anywhere if she can leap and reach if frustrated lately ! lol ! she needs more challenges...and i was looking for some toys for pull games...but the darned thing is smart...is insisting on my flesh right now still...leaning the word STOP though...and then i start another game...sigh...one has to vary it though...after 12 ball fetches she wants another activity...and her favorite ? is a bite game and pull game ! lol ! i jumped on the bed today...she barked her head off...gave her my jacket...she took to that a while i admit...but was watching with her whites of eyes showing into my eyes and sure enough did one of her kamikaze leaps at my chest and grabbed me there with her teeth...darned painful...i am female !! LOL !! outsmarting this thing is the challenge right now on this bite play...and she knows i am trying !!!

I just had a look at mastifflover website to see what this mastiff looked like ! looks like a big soppy dog ! hardly looks like a biter ! well well...individuals hey...the local PITBULL CROSS here is a million times calmer than this pup ! just goes to show...breeds mean nothing ! it is all individual hey !

mastiffs...just looked them up on wikipedia...didnt know the breed...new dog type to me...and it says they were fighting dogs...but now..
"Ce sont des chiens ayant naturellement bon caractère, placide et étrangement doux. C'est un chien qui se plait dans un appartement, comme à la campagne," placid and gentle ! happy in a flat or outside ! how times change hey ! must look at this website more.

> I am inclined to think she has a strong character...wants to be active...do things..and that is where all this energy and drive needs to be diverted...she loves ball fetching...carries her lead....just changed her harness too small now for her to a normal collar...she just grabbed the lead in her mouth and walked like that with it...sigh...!

welcome to the world of Belgians....... ;)
You'll either never have another one, or never have another breed!

my ARMS ARE COVERED WITH CUTS AND BRUISES !!! LOL ! agony now when she seizes them ! the other bad habit she learnt fast when i was dissuading her ? take a stong NIP hard on my inner legs !! YEEOUCH ! or jump in annoyance or something at me defiance and grab my clothes and hang on permanently there shaking her head wildly ! she is an absolute terror for it !

Nips on the inner legs - is that from behind? yes, BSDs do that a lot, mine does that now when very excited and running with my partner :)  It pinches.

Wear old clothes, that don't matter, and use a house line and do not react when she grabs you or your clothes ... it is easy to yell, yelp or scream, but she will find this rewarding as she so enjoys this. Also if she is playing very hard with other dogs, be careful as she will think this is what she is meant to to, and will be practising this with you, too, as well as the other dog. Ensure she also plays nicely with calm, adult dogs as they will teach her that too much hard biting is inappropriate :)

Do use the distract method, it can really help :)

Your poor arms - ouch.

Lindsay
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thanks for telling me my pup is breed type !! LOL !!! breeders i rang yesterday as i was all excited at t thread here i read about differences between show and work dogs...well that debate is very sore point in frogland...i said the comments on gb forum were more reasonable and focused on character diffs...saying show ones were maybe more calm natured for pets...the fr forums go on about diffs in looks...so i rang breeder and said ...look here...i bought beauty and brains...is that not so ? i want it ALL ! from parentage that i could figure out agilty skills from of father in particular...the bitch is too arrogant they said for repetitive stuff like that but passed normal tests...so they said to me...sigh sigh...it is a prob in fr some people have crossed non belgians to get MORDANT biting skills with greater jaw pressure...and others have focused on beauty at cost of character too much...a general statement that could apply anywhere i say to that of course...my gb colley was stunning but a nightmare nature...and i WANT a pup with character...i have the will to use it ! oooh...on my mind is COW HERDING nearby....she shows inclinations...the breeders said yesterday dogs held back too ,much when faced with a herd of sheep do not have drive prey so do not herd...well this one has it but i do for her own safety around cows tell her HOLD BACK...ATTENDS...DOUCEMENT...to not get her whalloped by a kick from a cow ! she is only 3 months old ! but curious...very very curious...and copies easily...

the point made about playing hard with other dogs...yes...i can see that from early age pics and on friday at classes where she mauled her brother around permanently incessant...she is wanting to play like that of her own nature...i do nto tease her at all to have done all that to me...and am desperately since reading her trying to distract her from harming me...my skin cant take what it did 3 weeks ago ! LOL ! she got annoyed with me yesterday...sussed out i was distracting her...sigh...kept on even harder...she is so dratted smart ...i never LIE to her though...the word VOITURE for CAR she hates...but i let her know...that is where we are heading ! she then SITS DOWN walks away and i ahve to carry her to it !! LOL !!!

my internet connection is so slow the video that is PERFECT to show her playing with brother did not load yestday...i will notify when it does...you will then see better than my words this aggression play she has at the END of a school class ! she just never stops !

and yes,, the sqeeky toys i found excited her...i removed one of the sqeeks of the giraffe..was driving me insane...and when the kitten miouws. ? that is a problem...she likes it !!! does NOT let go ! more than once i have dragged her off him ! he comes back for more that little tiger i add...has claws that have pinpricked me in the past well himself ! i am SURROUNDED BY HUNTERS ! kitten and pup !! LOL !!

another ? ooh...i am a sucker for punishment..that is telepathy...i was thinking of a TERV to give her another target than me ! and another dog...but ? the one i would like..a son of Je Taime in GB Belgians just mated...would be too young for my female pup...would have to separate them to my mother when she comes on heat. ...but a Terv appeals...a male...a couple ! lol ! for pups later of course. not too soon.

> I just had a look at mastifflover website to see what this mastiff looked like ! looks like a big soppy dog ! hardly looks like a biter ! well well...individuals hey

:) Looks can be VERY misleading! Buster looks like a slow, sedate, dopey dog, but he can move with lightening speed & agility when the mood takes him and when younger he was just a mouth on legs

Any breed standard is the example of a (trained & socialised) adult dog. Puppies and 'teenage' dogs can act very different to thier intended breed standard as they still have much to learn about the world around them, rules, self-control and as you say - individual personalitties have thier effect too.

Busters training has all come together nicely now and as he's maturing (he will soon be 3 years old) he's starting to act much more like the typical English Mastiff = 'gentle giant' :)  but it's been hard work to get here!

Sounds like your pup is very bright and also has much more energy and eagerness for mental stimulation than my dog (see, that's a breed characteristic difference showing up). . You will crack the play-biting issue it's just a case of being patient consistant and very inportant to stay calm, even when it hurts!

I do know how you feel, it is frustrating when you keep getting bitten and nothing seems to work, but stick with the geat advice you've had from here and it will all fall into place.

don't worry i will...and looking forwards to the books arriving too ! i did not imply soppy meant dopey btw...that is a bit strong a word to describe a soppy dog...PATOU is what i mean in French...it is a compliment if a dog is nice and patou when used in France...LOL !!! so many are not hey !!! just in from bar...the frog man who likes trying to attract my pup attentions was there...ooh...she ignored him of course...was chasing leaves...sigh...for a man who says he is a dog knower and has 2 himself seems basic to me if a pup is busy chasing leaves EVEN I would have trouble getting her attention ! lol ! anyhows...went inside the pub and was chatting to some brits...and saw ??? this frog's kids eating...they converged onto me to stroke pup saying they were afraid of dogs...the frog was there and looking rather embarassed...i said..can you not bring your dogs out because they are bad behaved ? and he replied yes !!! hilarious ! what i suspected ! so DONT GIVE ME ADVICE MATE ! was my thinking ! i did not snarl at him...he is just obviously some divorcee out feeding the kids on a sunday glad of any talk to anyone around and my pup is a good reason ! lol ! i was not nasty to him. my pup did that by ignoring him. sigh.

the dratted video upload failed yet again today...takes hours !! for a few minutes of it ! but that is when i will show you what my pup is like...best to see things in action than words from me even though i try to describe.

PATOU ...sigh sigh...my french neighbour is doing the usual french thing of drilling holes in his walls on a sunday afternoon..need my earphones...patou as i was saying means a friendly dog...not a biter...trustable...soppy was the closeest i could get to it in slang gb but it is not meaning the negative of soppy i think it has in gb lingo.

i think i should add, in view of a negative comment i made in the last post regarding a stranger met only twice in a bar...culturally, French women do not frequent bars n France. North or south. it is a male thing. so ? one gets problems sometiimes with any approaches in them. the other day i just shook hands as one does in FR with a chap i had seen twice also...he did not let go, and i ended up having to be unpleasant...same happens if i engage in conversation often. it is just a nuissance. having the pup of course gives an easier possible approach to me. so it has increased the snaps from me while minding my own business generally having a coffe lemonade or beer. on the way to this bar today, a man tried to stop me on the pavement whilst walking the dog...i snapped that i did NOT want her distracted i was road training her at him. sigh. otherwise ? she will run to people instead of paying attention to what I want her to do. it is not safe. and i did not know this man i snapped at anyway. i have no problem having my pup stroked and me spoken to generally i add. and it is rare..i am the ONLY PERSON in the 2 bars i frequent to go in with a dog !!! never in years have i seen any there...she is welcome...gets offered water and food today even at this bar.

I WANT my pup to be welcome anywhere like this. to behave herself, to enjoy attention of others and give them pleasure...that fact that i see no one else doing it does not stop me ! it is SOCIALISATION for my pup...good for her...and we meet some nice brits and germans often we spend a few minutes with other than me sitting with her by myself watching the world go by.

If more people did this...then dogs would be better behaved generally i believe and welcome in more places.

I got slated on a French forum for dogs for saying i took her like this to bars...i REFUSE to accept that. it is not my dog but PEOPLE who need to behave better often i say ! i will not avoid bars where people are that is good for my pup to see just because it is culturally not the done thing here.

thinking about that mastiff breed...i was thinking to myself...if that sat on me as my pup does with is it i read 145 kilos of weight or is it pounds ? not sure...was on wikipedia i was reading...there is not much except negotiate one could do about it  !! LOL !! a good job he has turned into a gentle giant !

I am trying the video again. sigh. takes hours. for a few minutes of video ! never done it before. and reading all these messages again as i do...i think it is a darned good thing we are going 1 times per week on fridays now to pup classes...as yes the pups do yelp and bite each other and she will learn the hard way...her brother took a pasting at the end only as it was her first time there so not quite sure of herself was curious not into launching into other pups mode until the end. he took a few yelps elsewhere i noticed and barked...and it seems a good idea as i said to his owners if HE teaches her some BITE INHIBITION for me ! LOL !!! when he gets more confident i hope ! he was more timid than Fairy ...that is the problem...i have built her confidence up too much ! HILARIOUS ! my aim yes but just LOOK at the state of me now thanks to that ! LOL !

I managed it...took hours...just for a few minutes of a video on utube...must be internet slow connection...had several crashes !

this is the BEHAVIOUR of my puppy with her brother not seen for 5 weeks about since leaving the nest !

she wears the red collar !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEQbFetVAEc

Looks like perfectly normal puppy behaviour to me.

Ils ont si beaux et patou (if I have that right!) - they are so beautiful and sweet :)

exactement ! too right ! right on ! LOL ! yes normal puppies....but all the same...petite rouge, Black Fairy in the red collar has the upper hand ! lol ! and those little needles in her mouth ? LOL ! prefer them on her brother to me hey ! time to get her off my foot and onto my bed now ! BONSOIR ! oooh i wil do some better videos...this was my first with camera i have just bust after 3 days !!! LOL !! who said my pup was a destroyer ? just look at me for clumsiness ! lol ! silly shutter things are too fragile...sigh...