i went off at a tangent on a theme that touched this, aggresssion, as i read a male did not like testicules touched by a judge.

i watch some UTUBE videos..and on one in particular, i see the dog, a bitch is being distracted by some titbits i think while examined...

my question...and i need to read up and am no where ready yet for shows...is apart from GROOMING my puppy to get her used to being handled and opening her mouth to see her teeth occasionally too for the same reason...and using the word "amicale" meaning BE FRIENDLY that i say when meeting strangers that are to stroke her...i think that is most of what i can do to prepare her...? i think so. i will read up though on anything available on this subject...there is much for me to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV38LEYZbqc&feature=related
[url=]
http://cedia.fr/ftp/RevueCFCBB6-2009.pdf[/url] this article...in French so not of interest probably...but has mention of a few dogs GROWLING when judges examine them. obviously mentioned as a minus point probably. and my pup is female so not going to be upset as a male would be by her undersides examined.

bitches can be upset when due in season by having their rear ends touched, more so than males over their testicles, unless the judge has cold hands or is rough.

This is why Ring training is important.

The dog learns to accept a stranger putting their hands all over the dog to feel muscles, coat texture and to assess the angles of the bones, and length of loin etc.

Also the head will be held, the eyes looked directly into (something many dogs find threatening or challenging) to assess eye colour and shape, the teeth will be looked at and in Europe counted, so can be quite an ordeal for some so preparation is needed.

For a sensitive bred like the Belgian preparing them well for all that is involved with a ring examination is very important, a bad experience can put a dog off showing permanently.

thanks. I did not know that about bitches...the eye stare is fine...my pup loves staring into eyes so far ! i need to make sure she does not play with the brush too much...and i have started opening her mouth. I encourage her to let herself be stroked....not difficult ! just in from a bar...she is so used to hearing and getting reactions to her puppyness and prettyness it is going to her head i think ! wags her tail happily LOOKING at people even to Look at her !! LOL ! she does not move unless i allow it though...i don't want her to irritate people that are not intersted in her ! ...opening hte mouth thing i need to do more of. of coruse she is puppy and wants to play right now so i do the brush thing before we go out so that she knows it is best to get it done and not mess about if she wants her walkies ! LOL ! worse than having kids this i think.

Just one other question i have had on my mind for some time...is it necessary to BE ON A LEAD in the show ring ? my pup prefers and reacts well OFF lead best with me so far...and i just wondered...is it a rule to be on a lead ?

> is it necessary to BE ON A LEAD in the show ring ?

Most definitely, in fact in the UK the dog has to be on lead on show ground.

BF what your pup will tolerate at 12 weeks will be different to her attitude at maturity. You really need to take the advice of sensible adult showing dog owners and forget the present behaviour of your pup who is, one assumes, only a couple of weeks out of the nest and has not yet reached the fear period nor the teenage period which will start shortly before she comes into season and last till she is fully mature probably when she is about two. During this period she will need the correct and careful program of training and care, so enjoy the pup, socialise it and start looking for someone to help you with training for the ring. And yes she will need to be on the lead but most pups of twelve weeks will only just have been introduced to the lead and may not yet have been outside the home on it so slow up and let your puppy develop slowly and with care if you rush you will be almost bound to make mistakes.

thx...am going to first puppy classes with her tomorrow if it does not rain...sigh...this is France...everything is cancelled if it rains...let me not digress...i think you are right, she is confident now, and will have ado...adolescence in months to come and changes. so i cannot rely on what she does now being standard always. i do put her harness and lead on. for traffic issues. she is getting good at listening to the word WAIT for kerb control. but it can all go out of the window later in teenage tantrum mode. sigh. worse than having kids. schh. the pleasures are great though. and we have...a RELATIONSHIP that i care much about obviously hence my obsession to try and find out what to do right now so hard. thx.

If you are intending to show she will need to learn to walk on a collar and lead.

also beware of harnesses, especially the kind that tighten under the armpits as these can adversely affect the front construction if the pup starts to pull, it will push out the elbows which will be penalised as incorrect.

ooh ! i have a harness yes...it does not tighten...is a fixed lock...vet said it was kinder on the neck...not that my pup pulls i add...the breeders did nto like the idea...i thought...sounds a good idea...loads of dogs here wear them...ooh...i don't like all this legs out of joint suggestion due to harness...it is a nuissance as sometimes her fur gets caught in the lock...i notice it when she gets irritated by it...i have a collar too...tomorrow i put a collar on...takes less time...this pushing a ring over her head and turning the threads all around to get right takes ages...and she is now almost grown out of it after 3 weeks ! the vet said she would...said many people forget to lengthen them or change them as pups grow in fact...dogs turn up half suffocated to the vets some weeks later !

Not sure what inoculations are required in France but I am surprised she is ready to be mixed with other dogs as yet unless the breeder started her inoculations very early, in the UK it is not normal to start them until about 8 or 9 weeks and the second shots about two weeks later you then leave about 10 days before taking them to areas where other dogs are. So you see in the UK a pup of 12 weeks would only just being introduced to the outside world having been carried, if possible, until they are around 11 weeks.

We do have puppy parties that we go to when they are not yet old enough to be taken out on the lead so perhaps that is what you are talking of - she is in my opinion too young for formal training although it would be good for her and you to go and watch for a couple of weeks.

oh her vaccins are all done except rabies...that can be done anytime now...i was ok i was told at 8 weeks to wander around outside so long as other dogs were vaccinated...so i ASKED always and avoided the known areas i knew they were not. she has been on the streets so to speak for a month now in France. all ok. except of course...the unmentionable eating of certain dog deposits that got me very annoyed.

oh yes, she has been meeting other dogs for weeks now ! a month in fact since 8 weeks old. all as advised by breeders. the last vaccination last week meant she could meet unvaccinated dogs. so we did. most in the countryside here are unvaccinated. people can't be bothered to.

so tomorrow is dog learn to sit and walk on lead stuff i think and socialisation with a few other puppies. good for her. and me. not that she likes me stroking other dogs i add. she ignores them mostly. since a nasty attack on us in a public parc. did not get bitten though at least.

I don't think she will do much training tomorrow with distractions. she fetches her balls etc to me alone with me and to others if calm. but this walking on lead without sniffing everywhere will be a new experience...i let her do as she pleases if she wants to stop and sniff grass etc...she walks mostly though...and i feel it is the right thing to do to have got her to accept the lead and harness.

excuse me...just had my mother on phone..the cocker she met last week passed a "tic" to my cousin...a parasite...that sucks blood...soupire..sigh..must check my pup out...all over...vet is shut for anti parasite liquids today bank hol...that is France...4 day weeks most weeks...and bank holidays they do the bridge and take an extra one...i went there today...shut...

Just thought I might add, I am very novice, but i've found it was a pain in early Ringcraft classes because I taught "sit" from a young age.

This is what happened!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4LSU3r-Svs

Thankfully we are sorted now!

that video is HILARIOUS thx ! i see the problem ! the dog kept sitting down ! well...i was actually thinking to myself recently...not having used this word ASSIS  - sit for my puppy or LIE DOWN...why would i want to ? ...i explain. when we go walks...or i want her to STOP at a kerb...i use the word in French for WAIT...she does it ! stops still. in a pub, bar, she naturally lies down or sits herself as she pleases...i don't let her wander around.

what is the point of the SIT command ? a man talking to us tried it on her...said the word SIT and of course she ignored him and i said she does not understand that word...and i thought...we are out on the lawn...why on EARTH should anyone tell the dog to sit ? it is control freakism to do that to a dog or anyone !

i said to another man going on about my need to teach her these words...why ? if she lies down sits or whatever even STANDS while i am drinking my coffee at this bar...why should it bother me ? it does not ! all i want from her...is to STOP and STAND at a kerb before we cross the road...STOP before i tell her to advance into a lift...that kind of thing !

of course in obedience training we will learn these things...but i am more interested in agility training myself...i watched some videos of obedience and i thought the dogs heads were unnaturally twisted looking up at the owner instead of walking normally ! horrible ! seemed like they had some motor neuron disease or manerism !

and thinking about it...and the French public strangers OBSESSION with trying to give ordrers to other people's dogs ? i have decided...i will NOT USE THE STANDARD WORDS THEY USE ! to avoid IRRITATING my dog by them !

Sit developed from the shooting fraternity, as a dog would need to sit at handlers side to see where shot game fell.

For myself I never use the sit command at all, but down (for lie down) and off (if up where they shouldn't be) and especially settle (relax at my feet) are most useful.

For showing stand, and watch are most important, as well as some form of command to trot nicely on a loose lead, and to turn at the corners/ends of movement patterns.  Most often a judge will ask for a triangle, straight up and back, and round the ring in a circle..

oh good...and yes for hunters makes sense..i like to watch the graceful way dogs walk not to close to handlers in the ring...fluid free alert heads wagging tails...and apart from handler enough to see the whole dog...and when they trot...it is beautiful to watch coordination and grace too i see. these aspects of WATCH i do not know, must mean look ahead or something. GET OFF my feet would be useful for my pup sometimes i add ! she SITS on them as standard ! lol ! or has a paw on them !

my breeder said i could use ENGLISH words instead of French in fact...he knows my aversion to others giving my pup orders...so i must look some up. must order some books today actually. i have been reading the websites given in the threads and bookmarked them. one negative view i had was...the man writing a report on dogs not being like wolves anymore died before finishing his reviews and reports...so there is missing detail. i agree...dogs have evolved to different skills than wolves...too many times i see or hear comparisons with them...when in fact i pointed out that dogs like mine and others were bred to be ANTI wolves...and i can say...the video sounds on my website of arctic wolves howling made my pup go wild with terror...and my colley years back her hair raised on her back the first time she met my pet fox...instant dislike. herding dogs ! bred for it ! was my thinking. NOT friends naturally with wolves or foxes !

that fox...was more like a cat...played and walked on lead like a cat not a dog i must say. and was always AFRAID of others. men in particular. yet he was BLIND when i got him as a pup.he was sold by taxidemist who had killed parents.sheep worriers.

Watch means for the dog to look at your face and concentrate on you.  Most useful while being examined and to get a nice show stand while judge is choosing from the dogs.  Most dogs are waiting for that treat that comes when they can relax.  You need a word that tells the dog the action requested is finished.  many use OK or relax.

it is amazing how many people give a dog a command, but forget to give a release command so eventually the dog chooses to stop sitting or lying down etc (many use OK, or That'll do, or relax etc), and then they are surprised that dogs break in their exercises.

yes i agree, waste of time giving an ordre that is not released...dog will get tired of it and ignore it in the end. and i guess some breeds are more eye contact friendly than others. belgians seem to stare hard and not shift their gaze quickly i find. what i noticed the first time i met them in Brum sutton park many years back....i thought...hey...a dog that can outstare me ! lol

I'd be a bit miffed at some total stranger giving my dog commands! I do teach sit, stand and down, but when teaching things like interrupted recall / emergency stop, I just shout 'Wait' and let the dog choose what position to stop in - one of mine stops and sits, the other two just stop and stand. As long as they stop that's what I consider important! But I would teach stand after heelwork rather than sit if you want to show. A dog can learn to do both, my girl knows whether to stand at a show or sit at heel for obedience, but it's confusing to teach both at once. I didn't teach sit at heel until she was perhaps 9 months old.

oooh it annoys me si...what good timing that remark made is...i am FURIOUS ! just in from a pleasant walk with her, went to chemists, was allowed in to get her some insecticide liquids and anti diorhea just in case for the future. had just one day of it. after too many people gave her all sorts to eat last weekend...and ? i was chatting very well with some Germans and a Brit about dogs...drinking a beer...my pup at my feet...and some FRENCH people on a table NEAR THE ROAD CALLED HER OVER...interupted me to ask if they could feed her off their plates...i said NON ! i did not want her eating anything and then she would irritate them for more...they replied...YOU SHOULD TRAIN HER !!! i SNARLED at them...and the Brit said WELL DONE ! i said...DO NOT ASK ME FOR HER NAME TO CALL HER OVER TO YOU THEN AND THEN TELL ME TO LEARN TO TRAIN HER !!! she STAYS AT MY FEET IF NOT ANTAGONISED AND CONFUSED LIKE THAT ! ...well..they upped and left...good ridance to them. I am losing PATIENCE...not with my puppy...but HUMANS ! like that !

the French text minus accents on my website just put in FRENCH TEMPER tells them how to behave !

"mais...au bar des anglais...bonne discussion avec des Allemands au sujet Belges et Bergers Allemands les amis policiers disent ils sont plus utiles a cause de leurs hanches a partir de 6 ans meme..et les malinois ca commence aussi ils me disent...

les FRANCAIS ! ont BESOIN de comprendre...si vous etes a table..en train de manger dehors ...et que vous APPELLER un chien a vous pour le caresser...et voulez le donner a manger de vos assiettes ? et bien marci d'avoir DEMANDEE a moi d'abord pour le MANGER ! que j'ai dit NON ! ne faites pas ca ! je ne veut pas que mon chiot mange dehors n'importe quoi, et apres vous agace en plus pour en avoir de plus ! MAIS ! ne m'agacez PAS en  me disant apres avoir fait ca...que moi je doit ENTRAINER MON CHIOT ! c'est comme j'ai REPONDU ! VOUS NE DEVEZ PAS APPELLEZ LES CHIENS DES AUTRES A VOUS COMME CA ! surtout quand assis A COTEE DES VOITURES QUI PASSENT ! et que le chien etait TRANQUIL a mes pieds ou autre personne ! ca ne va pas ca ! j'ai repondu...N'APPELLEZ PAS MON CHIEN ALORS ! et si on me demande son nom pour faire ca ? CA M'ENMERDE JE VOUS DIS TOUS ! vous mettez...mon chiot/chien EN DANGER en faisant ca...vous INTEROMPEZ la DISCUSSION AILLEURS que moi j'etais engagee a avoir avec autres personnes que vous...je vous LAISSAIT TRANQUIL MOI A MANGER SANS VOUS ENBETER AVEC MON CHIOT ! mais vous ? vous voulez APPELER pour CARESSER ET DONNER A MANGER MON CHiOT !!! qui apres ca sans doute j'aurait moi a APPELLER POUR NE PAS SAUTER POUR PLUS !!! mais c'est DINGUE ces MANIERES MAL POLIS ET INCENSEES !

VOILA MON CHIOT !!! SANS LAISSE ! apres que ces gens sont partis ! elle embetait personne mon chiot ! quand on la laisse tranquille  dehors au bar quand moi je discute !!! c'est ELLE qui choisi cette position ! je ne lui commande pas ! et je veux bien qu'on caresse si elle veut bien mon chiot oui ! mais PAS QUAND JE SUIS OCCUPEE AILLEURS EN DISCUSSION ! avec un ANGLAIS et des ALLEMANDS QUI ME PARLENT A MOI !"

this is my puppy !!! HER choice ! to LIE AT MY FEET in bars etc off lead ! i do not NEED other people to want to PICK HER UP and CALL HER OVER or FEED HER ! the man who did it last time was there...i ignored him...was busy talking with other people, strangers, but interested in talking to me petted my dog when near them but did not pick her up and TALKED TO ME !

http://www.obcarskas.eu/resources/aubarchoixdefeenoirepositiondehors.JPG

i am in a temper...latin one...i need a fag.

that is interesting, 9 months old before teaching sit commands...i think that a good idea...walking to heel is more important before that. and i do not want her sitting down all the time of course either if walking and to be in shows ! lol..she is pup now. naturally lies down when tired. no prob with that.

Something like 9 months, not sure exactly. I think I did teach her to sit when called to come to the present, as I was thinking of doing both show and obedience. But I definitely didn't teach her to sit at heel after doing our puppy heelwork, until something between 6 and 12 months.

Fancy tempting your puppy over for food and then telling you to train her - what idiots! People usually ask before treating dogs over here, and I always say not unless you want her to remember you and come over for food for the rest of your life! :-D

thank you, i edited one strong word too strong for a public website on there...i was very annoyed. it is cultural this thing...French people culturally like to take liberties. it is the motto even on our coins...libertee, egalitee, fraternitee...well lets not tear that to pieces here...but additionally they love to TELL OTHERS what to do unasked for. and they themselves have badly behaved dogs generally and are AMAZED my young pup is out like that under my control and not a nuissance in bars restaurants...theirs cannot obviously be taken out !!! LOL ! and so ? they indulge in taking pleasure in my pup...who in time will learn not to respond to her name from others...she is a pup...listens to me...but obviously if she hears her name is confused by others using it. and she is naturally fairly friendly...has not had a bad experience from anyone i introduced her to.

dog training...in France...needs to be focused on the humans more than the dogs in my view...am off now to our breeder for our first encounters at a class..small one...i said i don't want a big class as we do not see many people so let's take things easily for her and me...i can't focus on more than one person to talk to myself !!! LOL ! not a multi tasker ! CHEERS !

> ...bonne discussion avec des Allemands au sujet Belges et Bergers Allemands les amis policiers ...<br />

Just to comment, it's not wise to lump Bergers Belges (Belgian Shepherds) and Bergers Allemandes (German Shepherds) together..... They may look similar, and do similar jobs, but have much different natures and temperaments! Belgians are much closer in temperament (sensitive, reactive etc) to Border Collies than they are to GSDs, (plus their own brand of unique personality).... it would be a mistake to try to train them the same way as GSDs.

Such as shame you get this reaction from people, BUT if you do read some of the books that have been recommended in the other thread, I think you will soon find you know a LOT more than those people, and through that, gain more confidence. Who knows, in a few years time you could be teaching THEM how to train their dogs in a kind and positive way!

To add: it's VERY bad for other people to call your dog, for any reason, while you have the dog on the lead, and in a sensitive breed it can cause a lot of damage. It can cause issues with frustration and redirected aggression in a reactive dog.

absolutely....what i look forwards to !!!thx.