I have taken criticism for admiting i have spanked on 2 occasions my puppy of 12 weeks old since having her 1 month. Explained in the Dog Turd eating thread.

I am not FOR corporal punishment as a norm, but as a last resort and controlled not done in temper and immediate so that relationship with what is wrong is understood.

please tell me, what the latest views on this are. Woodhouse years ago was very into it i add. maybe too much. i think, in cases of aggression it is necessary to show who is boss to get the alpha relationship clear between owner and dog...things i have read on usa sites i add. but i am not dog expert, just an owner who wants to learn.

I'm afraid I didn't read your other thread - mostly because I really dislike the terminology you used to describe the problem - but I'll answer this one.

Hitting a dog is completely unnecessary in all but the most extreme of situations (ie when a dog has hold of a person, in a bite, and cannot be removed in any other way)

If you have difficulty stopping your puppy from eating anything it shouldn't whilst out and about then keep it on a lead and use positive reinforcement and distraction.

It is illegal in the UK to hit a dog under the Animal Welfare Act. You can get reported to the RSPCA for it and this does happen.

The modern way of training dogs is to not use any force or any punishment at all, only positive reinforcement. This has been proved to be not only the kindest, but by far the most effective method. Humans are NOT bosses or alphas of their dogs, that's a very old and outdated theory that we now know is incorrect. Dogs do not see us as pack members, because we are not dogs. Thankfully dog training has moved on so we can now all be nice to our dogs and still have them behave well. :) I'll post a lot of links for you to read articles on in a moment.

that is very interesting...that this alpha and pack thing is old hat...right...so these usa websites with all that stuff are out of date. i welcome any links on this subject. i add, repeat, i hardly use ANY force on my puppy at all. I smacked her twice and not hard only one hit for situations that had reached the limits and were understood by her. her behaviour since has been in line with needs...this eating of the "T" word really annoyed me...made her ill...and it is very unhealthy...but it is more under control now. she was on a lead actually the last bad time...i was TALKING so distracted and did not see the dratted T word she was into. it is THAT common on the streets of frogland si.

This site will help. :-)

Also this one.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/documents/cop-dogs.pdf DEFRA's leaflet "Code of practice for the welfare of dogs" Page 7 mentions training and says "Only use positive reward based training. Avoid harsh, potentially painful or frightening training methods."

http://www.rspca.org.uk/allaboutanimals/pets/dogs/behaviour RSPCA on training your dogs etc. Quote:
" Training a dog using rewards will help it learn to behave appropriately and make it easier to control. Good training can enhance a dog's quality of life.
Frightening experiences and punishment can lead to behaviour problems and suffering." Plus:
"Train your dog from an early age to behave well using rewards. Never shout at or punish your dog. The dog is very unlikely to understand and can become more nervous or scared."

http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog_training_tips.asp Association of Pet Dog training puppy training tips

http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?sid=14&pid=1640 Debunking the dominance myth

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
History and misconception of dominance theory

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/about-this-website.php Welfare in dog training

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die Why won't dominance die?

And I almost forgot this, quote from this page http://www.bsdaofgb.co.uk/bsdfaq.htm of the Belgian Shepherd Dog Association of GB's website:
They are very sensitive to corrections, and respond best to positive reinforcement training using treats and toys.

Many people use clicker training with these dogs. These same characteristics can cause trouble if the owner fails to take the time to train them properly or combines harsh corrections with poor training techniques. Harsh treatment can cause the dog to panic or freeze and may even provoke aggression.

The only thing you teach a dog by hitting it is that your are not to be trusted, are dangerous or to be feared - if that is what you want to tell a dog then carry on, if not learn a bit about how a dog thinks and work your training routine around that knowledge. There are loads of books to help you before you have a pup that is scared of you and starts fear biting.

wow, just read several pages...and will do them all thanks...
http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominancemyths.aspx this one i must say astonished me...why ? well yes,,,all the stuff about dogs walking through doors first, jumping on people...i assumed is dominant behaviour ! ...but...and there is a BUT...it does not mention a trait i see VERY OFTEN in my puppy that I do call DOMINANCE..and prepared to stand corrected...MY PUPPY dominant behaviour...per me...or not understood..
1. She wants to take to her NESTS the things she sees me use...shoes i wear, clothes for example as well as her lead and balls and toys.
2. She tries to CONTROL ALL things i carry when out walking...the BAG i carry...the LEAD...cigarettes...she PULLS them all and LIES on them defending them in play from me !

i play with her...tug of war she loves...i read i should not let her win all the time at tug of war...and it harms her puppy teeth...SHE insists on it...my SLEEVES have to have my ARMS in them to please her...she gets annoyed if not !

now she gets all HYPER especially at the END of a walk. i think...to AVOID GOING INDOORS ! so ? she TUGS and LIES on all my things ! the keys even..having worked out i use them to open doors !

she is smart...watches me...sees what i am using...and seems...to me...to want to DOMINATE those things herself !

she does not even CHEW anything i do not touch ! seriously ! cables - only those she saw attached to my laptop ! now stopped...she does listen to me...but i do not forbid her many things i admit...and am covered in little bite marks and trying to stop that with BITE CONTROL ways.

Please, rest assured, my puppy is NOT AFRAID Of me IN THE LEAST !!! she is very confident...i have given her 2 times a small smack only. She never cowers if my voice is high or arms wave. i do not speak to her anyway in anything but soft tones. very quietly indeed.

of course the last thing i want is a fearful dog ! of me in particular ! but...i do maintain...she HAS to know...that IF SHE DOES NOT STOP...i will smack her. oh yes, just read it is against the law in GB ...sigh sigh...excuse me...but LIMITED NECESSARY smacks for kids as well as dogs...are in my view...occasionally needed. I am NOT losing sleep over the equivalent of a 5 year old human playing up for hours at night...there came a moment...when enough was enough of warnings...and it did not reoccur. i would do as much to a child. without MARKING them of course ! it is RIDICULOUS to suggest kids cannot be smacked occasionally. i do not open another can of worms however on that subject. i have to ENDURE the badly behaved and one day will take drugs due to not knowing LIMITS of other's kids enough sometimes to hold my tongue on this one.

>1. She wants to take to her NESTS the things she sees me use...shoes i wear, clothes for example as well as her lead and balls and toys.

These things smell of you so she's taking them to her 'safe place' (her bed, where nothing nasty ever happens) for reassurance when she's feeling lonely.

>2. She tries to CONTROL ALL things i carry when out walking...the BAG i carry...the LEAD...cigarettes...she PULLS them all and LIES on them defending them in play from me

That's a fun game! How do you ract? Calmly and with minimal attention or by scolding?

oh i NEVER scold her for taking my things no..it is cute i find...she adores looking at me and bringing them to me even..brings me the lead to go walkies !! age 12 weeks old ! quite a madam...i treat them as OUR things ! lol !!!

I adore my puppy in case there is any doubt...i was SO UPSET when i smacked her over the T word the other day i did not speak to anyone for hours.

now re reading the last answer...i do wonder another question...does my puppy need her own bed ?

She is not r lonely...i am with her ALL the time ! never out of her sight...the 5 minutes i was ? she nearly brought the roof down with howls and screams...too young still...insecure ? well possibly yes..she is a puppy and alone with me except for the kitten of the neighbours she likes best not here even often.

She has a rug of her own...and likes to chose to sleep at my feet wherever i am. so ? i did nto get a CRATE..she reacted negatively to a box i tried first night...does not like the dark...generally...is much better now if following me i add. 4 weeks i have had her and she has made much progress on the dark issue. but the bed thing ? would she even go to it ? i am inclined to think not as she wants to have her head or paws on my feet when asleep and moves with me if i get up.

you see...that was another thing i read and breeders advised...a crate...and i never had one for my dogs before....and i move around...take her blanket...she does not seem that attached to it i add. more my feet !

None of what you mention is dominance. :)

1. She wants to take to her NESTS the things she sees me use...shoes i wear, clothes for example as well as her lead and balls and toys.
This is a puppy being a puppy, playing and having fun. Particularly liking the items that has your scent on them the most, as they are used a lot. Not all that different to little kids that will be fascinated with their mother's items -I can remember my babies playing for ages with my keys for instance. They weren't dominant either. :)

2. She tries to CONTROL ALL things i carry when out walking...the BAG i carry...the LEAD...cigarettes...she PULLS them all and LIES on them defending them in play from me !

That is also just normal puppy play and not dominance. Watch puppies play with each other, they always steal each other's toys and try to get them back.

i play with her...tug of war she loves...i read i should not let her win all the time at tug of war...and it harms her puppy teeth...SHE insists on it...my SLEEVES have to have my ARMS in them to please her...she gets annoyed if not !

Tug is good game for Belgians and many, many of my puppy buyers check if the puppy will tug before they agree to by the puppy -it means the pup is happy to play and a game of tug can be used as an excellent reward. I encourage my Belgians to tug, and I also frequently LET them win, as otherwise the game will lose its fun element. Losing all the time is no fun. I wouldn't worry too much about the puppy teeth apart from during teething.

If she tries to tug with your sleeves or anything else unsuitable, just walk away into a different room. When she bites or tugs the wrong thing, especially arms or hands, all the fun should stop. Only if she uses the tug toys will you interact.

now she gets all HYPER especially at the END of a walk. i think...to AVOID GOING INDOORS ! so ? she TUGS and LIES on all my things ! the keys even..having worked out i use them to open doors !

How much do you walk her? She shouldn't get more than 5 minutes per month of life so if she is 3 months old that is a 15 minute walk maximum, 4 months is 20 minutes etc, any more can damage the growing bones. Also like children puppies can get over excited when over stimulated. Simply ignore her, don't let her get to your keys in the first place, walk in and don't interact with her until she is calmer.

whoops...yes...i have overdone the walks...this weekend she must have done 5 km a day...with an English Setter hunting dog...she let me pick her up asked me to in fact a few times...but normally she does RUN herself...especially if i put her harness and lead on...motors 600 yards non stop fairly fast running with me panting alongside !

she crashes out and sleeps hours afterwards. and she is in rest mode now as i was concerned she was too active this weekend in particular.

I take her out 3 times a day...age 12 weeks old now. about to go out now.

tug of war she ADORES...it is ME that hurts with her still needle puppy teeth ! and it is the only area i have problems with STOP command right now....when hyper with me ? she carries on and on ! for a game...but she is getting stronger...nearly THROTTLED the kitten last night without me ASKING HER NICELY to let go with my face right next to her to distract her...she could puncture him ! ripped the collar off anyhows that protects him...and HE COMES BACK FOR MORE that PRAT excuse me of a kitten to provoke her ! she does not bite my face i add...i make sure of that...even if excited.

the one thing i am proud of her for...is at the START of the walk...she is TOTALLY CONTROLLABLE by me...on or off lead..MORE so in fact OFF Lead...she HATES being on a lead as she LISTENS to me...when i put it on ? she is more awkward in fact than when off it !

at the vet the other day...met an adult dog in plaster broken leg...ran out of house into road uncontrollable excitement...i saw the pain it was in...and thought...i must control this first...and have done...amazing for a puppy i add...

so...she is NOT trying to DOMINATE me...good...this is good news...i was as you can see interpreting this as ALPHA behaviour...a challenge...for leadership...so reacting more towards getting ME seen as that. it is just play...good.

Not really anything to add to all the great advice regarding postive training methods, other than a vote from me too for it :)

Your dog sounds very intelligent so are you doing any training with her to occupy her? Hiding treats and letting her search for them etc. She really is just a baby at 12 weeks so I certainly wouldn't punish her - she hasn't learnt your rules yet and everything is fair game to a puppy including dog poo - our dog also did this and it is disgusting but fortunately she grew out of it after a few weeks. Teach a solid 'leave it' command and you won't have to resort to punishing her - which is a complete and utter waste of time as dogs don't understand punishment IMHO they just stop trusting you. If she won't put things down that she has picked up then you have to offer her something that she would like better - we were trying to get a plastic tray that had had some chicken in it from our 5 month old pup last night (older dog had been bin raking :-o ) and there was no way she was dropping it until she was offered a tasty treat in exchange :-)

i am all for non corporal punishment...unless all else fails...or extremely urgent to stop something unacceptable. i  have dog classes on this friday for first time. i have not used any treats to date for things she has leant fast like her name to cme to wait to stop ...the hiding treats game i look forwards to trying out...maybe too young at 12 weeks old ? not sure. the dog pooh thing took conflict...i handled it badly not warning her but she was absolutely obsessed with it in a way not seen in her before for anything.

IF a puppy or an adult dog...TURNS on a person...for NO OBVIOUS ACCEPTABLE REASON...i maintain, it HAS to be punished. for sure one tries NOT to get to that point..but i was not going to NEGOTIATE with her snarls and teeth...it was fast and short reaction from me. only once has she dared do that...and i was surprised...but that was to me an adequate reason to give her a spank and hold her down. i take many bites in play from her, not complaining about that, my need to follow gently reduction of bite control in that now she is getting tougher with her jaws through practice ! lol ! she always lets me take anything from her otherwise, never needed a treat for that, i talk to her and she lets go...or moves away...lets the cat eat from her food anything. this pooh thing was a real one-off between us.

we are just in from our walk to the farm for milk. she did her usual tugs of war things...i am using the word STOP to get her to let go...she seems to be responding ...so long as i let HER start it up again soon after a pause  !! lol !!

Punishing a 12 week old pup in this way is unacceptable in my opinion. Its only a baby, would you punish a human baby in that way?

A 12 week old puppy is not going to "turn on you" and even if it did to hit or otherwise hurt it is just teaching it to be more aggressive. Never ever respond with violence, to do so to a puppy teaches it that to be violent is the way to get what you want. Properly brought up dogs do not turn on people if they do they are ill or have been taught to do so as puppies.

Punishment is not understood by dogs, you have to train it. How can a dog understand a person suddenly attacking it as far as it is concerned it has done nothing wrong and will not learn anything except that you are not nice to know and have to be avoided because you lash out for no good reason. Dogs are trained for dog fighting by prodding and hitting them so why would you want to do it with a pup you should be socialising with other animals including people.

Please for the sake of the pup and yourself remember punishment does not equal training.

IF a puppy or an adult dog...TURNS on a person...for NO OBVIOUS ACCEPTABLE REASON...i maintain, it HAS to be punished. for sure one tries NOT to get to that point..but i was not going to NEGOTIATE with her snarls and teeth

But to her the reason was acceptable - she had something she valued highly and you were trying to steal it from her hence she did the only thing she could do to keep her treasure. You have to find something that is even more highly desirable and swap with her. Trying the same thing of punishing  her when she is older and bigger is a recipe for disaster and it wouldn't be her fault - you will have taught her that she needs to escalate her behaviour to ensure she keeps what she sees as hers.

Use a toy or a treat - the smellier the better - and she will want to give up the items -  no force needed at all :-)

Think dog hierarchy is misunderstood, if you have ever owned several dogs you will note that the "boss dog or more likely bitch" does not punish or bite a glance or the showing of teeth is enough, only equals go in for bull boy tactics so to do so with your dog is a very big mistake.

Remember dogs do not speak English nor any other human language you have to teach a dog what it is you want and what the command is for that action and the easiest way to do that for both dog and trainer is to reward correct action and ignore the incorrect. So teach "no" and "leave" and you will have no need to confront your dog.

Woodhouse years ago was very into it i add. maybe too much.

Are you referring to Barbara Woodhouse? Because if you are, many many years ago as a young child I lived near to her and used to take my dog to her several times a week and she used to spend a lot of time teaching me about dogs and took interest in my childish handling of my dog (with great patience), but I never ever saw her hit a dog or even suggest doing so. Yes she was old school and was known for her "sit" with the long T sound, but not corporal punishment.

well i am astonished i have to admit at this to me different to what i thought reasonable matter of using occasionally corporal punishement on dogs. but i have taken ALL the details of the website links given, comments made and reading them. the common attitude of people with dogs of their own i have met recently all seem to be in favour of corporal punishement i add. especially for toilet training for some reason i fail to understand actually as it is the one area i never considered using punishment ! hardly a serious crime to wet a carpet in my view !

i have a willfull strong drive puppy for sure. she is NOT however to use a human term...NASTY in intent or behaviour to me as a norm, her playing and biting is to me just playing and i do not shout or be harsh on her for that, trying to reduce her over hyperactive state actually just before having my arms free to write this email after an hour of persistant mouth and teeth on arms play she likes ! she is hardly AFRAID of me i add ! knows she is not going to get a whack for that from me !

i have more reading to do obviously ! cheers ! woodhouse ? oh i only saw her on tv...dragging dogs on leads...and reading that she overdid things on the punishment side...it was a long time ago.

> The only thing you teach a dog by hitting it is that your are not to be trusted, are dangerous or to be feared -

Totally agree with Nova.  Pup cannot do much about your bullying now, but you are teaching her aggression.

When an adult dog attacks, it is often for this very reason.  You reap what you sow.

I totally agree. Treating aggression with aggression is going to cause the behaviour to escalate in the future.

> I totally agree. Treating aggression with aggression is going to cause the behaviour to escalate in the future.

What more is there to be said. If you had no understanding on my 'language' and I suddenly hit you, in the long run it is going to make you fearful and as a dog the only way to deal with it is to submissively cower or answer back with the only means he has and bite. One of ours had been 'hit' 'smacked' call it what you want before he came to us, took me a week to realise he would leave the room when ever I read the paper, even five years on he can be startled by turning of the pages. Why would you want to do it, do you think he has the comprehension to understand the human behaviour of crime & punishment?

> I'm afraid I didn't read your other thread - mostly because I really dislike the terminology you used to describe the problem

Sorry Dogs a babe to use your post in reply but thorougly agree with above and after re reading back through to the original question, I have to question who has/is the problem?

black fairy,

you are to be congratulated on taking the time to listen and to think beyond the views of your dog owning peers- who seem to favour punishment. Marianne B and others have given you links for all kinds of information and I hope you will take the time to read and digest all of that. You might also try to get hold a book: The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey is an easy and useful guide to puppy training and rearing, using kind methods. 

The only time that punishment has a real use in nature is to teach complete avoidance of something that endangers life. Thus a puppy that badly burns its nose on a radiator will learn once and for all to avoid radiators- the lesson does not need repeating. The problem here is that if you hit a pup bad enough to hurt it, it will then probably try to avoid the thing that hurt it, in this case your hand, or attack the thing that hurt it- your hand. Not a useful lesson if you want a family/human friendly and compliant pet. If you tap the dog and don't hurt it, no lesson is really learned- this is the problem by teaching with punishment. To work the punishment has to be severe, but you cannot control exactly what the dog learns and it may develop phobias of the situation it associates with pain (dog at vet) or it may attack first to avoid the punishment/pain. So, punishment is not a useful way to teach a dog.

Dogs are highly sensitive to having a place/position within the family- not a rank- as social animals they just want to be part of the gang. Ignoring and withdrawing from undesirable behaviour can work, or offering and rewarding a different behaviour; or, when pup chews or nips your arm just leave the room for a while. Return and repeat if necessary, praising pup for calm behaviour. Or, return and offer chew to pup, praise pup while it chews on the object/treat. All of this takes time and patience, your pup is a baby and cannot learn overnight. Also pup has a basic need to chew and nip and mouth and human arms feel goood. Pups have no moral compass, they cannot reason, they just go where their urges direct them. Your light taps on her rump will feel part of the contact game- so pointless. Hitting her harder will create a dog that is fearful of you and your hands. Try the kind routes: time outs and distraction/reward. You will crack it and have a fabulous, reliable dog at the end.

Maybe it is that in France people still use force and punishment more than here, so this is where you get the advise from.

This is definately my experience from when visting a show in France.
Lot of the dogs wore prong collars and we also saw few people openly slapping their dogs in a ring (when the dog misbehaved) and nobody seemed to react in anyway e.g. like it was not acceptable thing to do...

I'm not saying all french treat their dogs like this but it was definately different enough to what I'm used to seeing.
Saying this, in general their dogs were more sociable and pretty well behaved!

no not all French do that...and i spoke to the breeders yesterday after messages i read here...they said there is a ruling coming in or in at agility that it will lose points if hit. sigh. and many belgian owners seem anti physical punishment...why i thought it useful to join forums...but outside in the streets ? i see all sorts and hear all sorts that show that hitting is standard for all sorts of things. and uncontrollable dogs on leads pulling their owners...in a way i would not tolerate...not that my puppy pulls..amazing..must be the breed because she reacts to the slightest feel of resistance on the lead...and off lead ? is more attentive to me than on it ! hates the lead actually...carries it..insists on it..too darned clever...has worked out lead means walkes but insists on carrying it to stop me putting it on her ! LOL !!! and i am about to order some of those books...read...all i read before with my credit card replacement awaited...darned 3 digits on back had effaced...was the usa stuff on alphas !!! pack behaviour ! it was all new to me that stuff too i add ! and sounded quite logical ! so ? i started thinking...I HAVE TO BE THE ALPHA !!! as i read on those sites ! LOL !!!

and remember...as in economics...France tends to lag behind modern thinking...they are still into WORKSHOPS in business of the 80's in GB / USA ! but...i see DOG COATS and DOG PARLOURS...ah...but then those are many for humans too...dog training classes are tomorrow...her breeder...i got banned from one forum in France for expressing a view on intervariety breeding and interbreeding..the latter i am against...one described it like MAKING PANCAKES by INSTINCT !! interfamilly breeding ! i gave my common views on that...and that was the end of me !! LOL !!!

because...i had in my view a scottish colley once i felt was too interbred...and she was snappy....highly strung...and it seems dogs get genetic problems more from not enough variety of genes. what i read.

>...was the usa stuff on alphas !!! pack behaviour

Unfortunately there are still people inthe USA who recommend 'waterboarding' (holding its head underwater until it thinks it's drowning) a puppy for messing in the house ... :-(

aaaah ! holding head under water ??? that is BARBARIC...now that is far worse than a smack ! goodness gracious me...there are barbarians in the USA as well ! i cease...i need a coffee to recover ...i have a HORROR of suffocation myself !

> they said there is a ruling coming in or in at agility that it will lose points if hit.

Just goes to show how different things can be, in the UK if someone reports you for hitting a dog at a Kennel Club activity you are likely to find yourself banned from competing for a number of years, typically 5 or 10 sometimes for ever.

ah, the use of a NEWSPAPER to spank i was told to do as well...and i read here what i was thinking myself...and for other reasons...i did nto want to do that...i am training my puppy to NOT be STARTLED by russtelling bags...and i heard from my neighbour a Bordeaux Dogue BIT the dachshund she / he lived with due to startled by a paper flying...so ? that was it ! i started waving papers at my puppy...rattling bags as we walked...russelling newspapers...and ? she sleeps through it all ! i mean...hardly wanted her to SNAP at the kitten if a paper flew up !!! that was the worry of my neighbour...,her kitten plays with my pupppy...she wanted me to promise to never leave them alone and go straight to the vet if anything happened...hardly necessary ! the kitten is a killer ! i had to whack that once to stop it digging its claws into my puppy ! whoops...i did tell the neighbour i did that...she did not tell me off !

> they said there is a ruling coming in or in at agility that it will lose points if hit.

???? this is all about html mark up language ? must be a slip...not about dog  smacking..

>i spoke to the breeders yesterday after messages i read here...they said there is a ruling coming in or in at agility that it will lose points if hit.

The Kennel Club states that "You should never handle your dog harshly or use punitive correction at a competition.". If seen and reported you can be banned from KC events.

ooh la la ! i am going to ask to see the French rules !

nothing...i went on all the sites i know...

http://cfcbb.free.fr/ the belgian shepherb association site.

http://cedia.fr/ the canine club association l am listed on...all LOF kenne club dogs...mine is registered and has to be confirmed when adult..

http://www.scc.asso.fr/ canine club of france.

not a word about anything like conditions for shows regarding behaviour ! obviously it is LAISSEZ FAIRE !! LOL !!! but there is talk as my breeder yesterday said to me when i was ranting that i was getting blasted by the Brits about this spank issue...that AGILITY competitions are bringing in a point losing rule...and they know i want to compete in that when she gets older...

oh of course the breed standard says...NO AGGRESSION...and my breeder was criticised i read for one of her males growling when the judge was feeling the little balls a male dog has to check they were UP TO STANDARD !! LOL !!!

They have to check that they are there, it is a fault to have none or only one and such dogs should not be breed from so of course the judge will check, we all do. A dog being shown will be used to this and should not growl at people anyway. Unless they happen to be breaking into your property.

I understand that, but i do sympathise with dogs on this...a stranger messing with delicate parts...takes a great deal of self control not to say something ! personally ...i take a growl as a warning from a dog...not sure what else it means...it must be hard to get dogs to accept ANYONE doing that to them !

Is there any one else but me that thinks this is a WUM as you call it here?

It did cross my mind.

i do not know what a wum is...but it seems negative. well excuse me if my views as thought are not to liking. i just commented on a dog growling in what i thought was reasonable circumstances. not my issue anyway ! just a comment of a judge i read on teh web about a male dog of my breeders.

Black fairy - one of the difficulties I have with your posts is that they shift topics at speed and are difficult for casual readers to follow.  In addition this type of scattergun approach to contentious issues is one often employed by posters wishing to start or continue arguments.  WUM - wind-up-merchants.

The following comment, that appears to criticise the very people whose opinion you are seeking, does not help

"... as my breeder yesterday said to me when i was ranting that i was getting blasted by the Brits about this spank issue..."

This thread was started by you to address the question of punishment and to solicit other peoples views.  If you have the responses you need, perhaps you could stop posting on this one and start another if you wish to specifically address the way in which dogs are handled/assessed in the show ring.  Please do have a think about the language you use to describe it.  If English is not your first language you do seem to have grasped English slang pretty well, maybe it would be wise to stick with more medical or technical terms like "testicles".  Thanks

"T.B. : COGNAC DE LA VALLEE DES SORTILEGES (s.r. N'Oural de
Brunalines x s.r. Vahia de la Vallée des Sortilèges) à M. Barreaud.
Grand modèle de 2 ans ½ en bonne condition, sans toute sa fourrure. Tête
médioligne un peu puissante qui manque de ciselure et de sécheresse avec
laxité labiale, oreilles moyennes un peu lancéolées bien portées, profil haut,
front plongeant, yeux de bonne teinte, absence de stop, chanfrein busqué.
Denture complète en petites cisailles. Encolure dégagée un peu grêle par
rapport au volume de tête, bon corps médioligne qui doit se développer pour
équilibrer les proportions, bon garrot, bon dessus, croupe fuyante, bonnes
angulations arrière, épaule correcte, bonne ossature. Bonne présentation
calme. Grogne à l'examen des testicules. Fouet en faucille porté gai, décolle
les coudes."

here it is ! http://cedia.fr/ftp/RevueCFCBB6-2009.pdf

and i commented to his breeders...i sympathised with the dog ! the things they have to put up with !

i do not know what all the acceptable childish words for things in english are. i have just come back from a bar in France here where the brits I do not know next to me were swearing with F words and many other words quite openly talking to each other. now if we have to pretend this is not common language, and i did not object to their language in daylight afternoon having a beer with my puppy being stroked by them SOCIALISATION i call it...the only way i get to do it...and i have been slated for taking her to BARS by the French dog people...and i replied...WHERE ELSE AM I TO SOCIALIALISE HER ! at least the foul mouthed brits do something for that ! and i can live with their language !

The FRENCH men do not mix with the Brits in the same bars. they are a nuissance...as they are alone and interested in a word begining with S without specifying it if offensive. I find the INTENTIONS offensive not the word. so i prefer the Brit bars.

scattergun. well that is the FRENCH MENTALITY ...CARTESIAN...OFF AT TANGENTS...so i will try and control it si.

you should SEE the DIVERSIONS in the FRENCH forums ! amazing ! the one on STANDARD went off into AGILITY discussions ! all sorts ! you cannot keep track of a theme on them ! LOL

The language people use in a french bar may well be very different to what is expected on a public forum that can be read by all age groups. We do ask members to use suitable polite terms so as not to offend.

http://www.obcarskas.eu/resources/P1000216.JPG

well this...to me...is evidence...that my pup is not nasty or a biter or afraid of people...and these brits are kind to her...and i do not mind their language whatever it is. i am grateful for their attentions to my pup in her formative period and politeness to me to not seek anything further from me of interest to them.

Have totally lost track now and to be honest interest. For the sake of your puppy and yourself I would suggest you refrain from hitting it and also forget your somewhat strange attitude to a dogs anatomy, they are not people and it is your duty to check your dog from head to foot to make sure your dog remains fit if you find this strange or somehow "dirty" then the sooner you forget that the better for the health of your dog.

?? dirty ? i do not have that sentiment in mind...i thought it natural for a dog to be nervous and growl if touched in sensitive to it parts...nothing to do with dirt ! the dog has no concept of that !

aggression...was the theme...and punishment...and i am in agreement that non meaning no to corporal smacks as are common and advised by many dog owners i have spoken to for various things is best...it is what i practice...i spanked her for attacking me...but i do add...if any STRANGER's dog tried to BITE me...they would not be tolerated by me ...and i would DEFEND myself if the owners did not call their dogs off. physically of course. i am not waiting to be bitten to then start talking negotiations with a strange dog. i put my foot down on this point only.