Are American Bulldogs allowed in the UK .

Currently, yes.

There is one which lives backing onto a country park and there is no secure fencing it is now using the park as an extension of his garden. He has bitten three dogs the last one an old English which he caused over £100 of damage and the owners vet said if it had been a small dog it would be dead. Nobody seems to be brave enough to do anything about it as there is a rumor the owner is a drug dealer.

Report the owner to your local dog warden

Sadly I don't think all dogs that are being called !"American Bulldogs" are that breed.  If they are then the few that have been imported over the last few years have been very busy.  THink many are crosses of other breeds.

After looking at a picture of one yes it definitely looks like one. It has been reported but it seems they are not doing anything about it.

>If they are then the few that have been imported over the last few years have been very busy.

American bulldogs have been bred over here for years.

although you are right, majority of them are probably pit crosses passed off as american bulldogs.

Are they a recognised breed, they are not listed by the American KC nor the FCI - you do hear people talk of them being shown but I am not sure where. The do resemble the Pit Bull so even if they are allowed I would think very hard before having one as others ignorance may cause your beloved pet to be taken from you and your being forced to keep the dog muzzled or worse destroyed.

I know they have  but I was amazed how when they first arrived how many litters there supposedly were of them when there wasn't that many that had supposedly been imported.

When I first say it I thought it was a pit bull but apparently the owner has said it's an American Bulldog. As it has bitten three times and it is only 18 months the amount of damage it dose something has to be done. I was walking near the property with my dog on the lead and it came barking at me I shouted at it and it did stop but the poor Old English that got bitten recently was screaming and it would not let go.

Report this to the Police then, seriously if the dog wardens are doing nothing and its already bitten some dogs causing harm and the fact its not contained within a garden then this is potentially a serious accident waiting to happen. Get as many people together with facts and not hear say and all report it...

Yes, there are acts that cover dog to dog aggression. It may not be the DDA - I can't recall, my memory is letting me down today!

It may be that one day this dog kills another dog, and it is clearly doing harm to dogs going past  its home ... and it's only 18 months old. Shame when it happens but it's got an owner who doesn't seem to be bothered...

Lindsay
x

The trouble with getting others involved is because the problem of him being a possible drug dealer other are scared to talk out as also I was told by the volunteer dog warden that he is a nasty piece of work and someone has already been warned off.

And American Bulldogs have been being bred A LOT in the 'dodgy' areas round here over the past 4 years at least - they have fair sized litters, and if you think how many pups one bitch can have.... you can end up with A LOT of Am Bulldogs (and have - the ones round here look like Am Bulldogs not Pits). Reply not particularly directed at you btw, just hit a reply button. :-)

There was a local incident a few years ago where 5 loose Am Bulldogs went for an elderly gentleman's (on lead) whippet, which panicked, pulled the lead out of his hand and was never seen again. :-(

> It may not be the DDA - I can't recall, my memory is letting me down today!

I think this one would be covered by the DDA "dangerously out of control in a public place". :-)

Doesn't the law state that every dog in a public place has to be under control, and any dog found to be out of control the owner could face prosecution if the dog harms another animal/human???? 

If running loose with no visible ID it can be picked up as a stray by the Dog Warden.
Then the owner would have to pay a hefty fee to release it plus kennel costs for each day it is kept before collection. I would definitely report it to the DW and mention it has been aggressive to other dogs. If people report these instances to the DW then something can be done via the DW who has some powers and can liaise with the police etc.

Have to say that most AMBs I have seen don't look like Pits to me, they have a more bulldoggy look about the head & mouth, wider chest and heavier in bone. But then even the authorities can't decide on what a true PB looks like! LOL

I guess it's very difficult with a breed like this which is NOT rec'd by KC, so there is absolutely no guarantee of ancestry, and difficult to determine temperament over the generations.

> Yes, there are acts that cover dog to dog aggression. It may not be the DDA - I can't recall, my memory is letting me down today!

Animals Act? (either 1871 or 1891 - my memory's just as bad for dates). There's one about that time anyway which would cover it but 'out of control in a public place' under DDA is the preferred one these days as it covers a lot more.

I attended a SBT seminar at the weekend. Two of the speakers were from the Dangerous Dog Unit, West Midlands Police.

The DDA is very muddy as we all know, what the police are looking at are dogs that fit the description of the Pit Bull Terrier, so even if these dogs are described as American Bulldogs, if they look like Pit Bulls that is what they are classed as. Even if you have KC registration papers saying a dog is a SBT it makes no difference if the dog has Pit Bull looks, saying that the Police Officers I saw said they would only act if a dog showed 70% Pit Bull tendencies and they look at things like height, eye shape, length of coupling etc.

I don't know what area you live in but all Police Officers that deal with the DDA will have had the same training. It might be worth contacting them to voice your concerns.

the Police Officers I saw said they would only act if a dog showed 70% Pit Bull tendencies and they look at things like height, eye shape, length of coupling etc.

Height is irrelevant. The ADBA standard used for DDA assessment has no mention of either height or weight. That's why large dogs like AmBulls can be accused of being pitbulls when they would probably be laughed out of the ring at an ADBA show.

There are 2 types of American Bulldog - Johnson and Scott. All to do with breeding and lines. They do look distinctively different, Scotts resemble taller Pit Bull types.

They were once very rare, but do appear to be gaining popularity as they are not banned.

I don't believe they are a recognised breed though.

They're not a recognised breed as some people would define 'recognised'.  But reading the history behind the breed is quite interesting. :)

Yes, that's what I said in the post....

Height is irrelevant.

This was one of the main things stated by the Police Officers at the seminar to put the SBT owners/breeders minds at rest.

They said that the height specified in the KC SBT breed standard and what "proper" breeders stuck to, was the main thing that immediately ruled out their dogs being considered of Pit Bull type.

Not in reply to you but adding on at the end..
http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/dangerous/index.htm

Its under section 3 of the DDA.

Yes they are legal. Very nice dogs imo, but reasonably high energy compoared to many bull breeds and need good training socilisation ect. The two types thing is interesting I've seen a few of the lighter ones who were very boxerish and there is a tendancy to sell any am looking bull breed off as am am bulldog even if its actually a bulky boxer or leggy staffie.

Adam

SueJaw is correct
You are supposed to insist that it's treated under section three of the DDA.
If the Police don't comply you should lodge a complaint against the constable concerned
with the Independant Police Complaints Commission, for failing in their
statutory duty of care to you as a member of the public.

> If the Police don't comply you should lodge a complaint against the constable concerned with the Independant Police Complaints Commission, for failing in their statutory duty of care to you as a member of the public

I wish it were that easy for someone whose dog is wrongly charged with DDA Sec 3 to get equivalent justice. It seems to be used for all kinds of trivial nonsense nowadays - dogs just aren't allowed to be dogs any more, even and especially when the complainants have behaved illegally and/or in a way likely to make a dog behave in an aggressive or antisocial manner.

The dog warden has replied to my e-mail and stated there is nothing they can do, what do we pay them for. They said I have to approach the police as they are unable to do this. I thought they would be able to speak to the owner as he should secure his property as it back onto the country park and not let it roan around when it pleases. Even though I didn't see the attach on the Old English I heard the noise and it was terrible I didn't know what it was at the time, but suspected it was a dog fight but couldn't go and see as I didn't want it turning on mine. The wife told the owner of the Old English that's what dogs do fight.

> The dog warden has replied to my e-mail and stated there is nothing they can do, what do we pay them for. They said I have to approach the police as they are unable to do this.

They're being paid money for nothing then as this is ENTIRELY their remit. I would contact your local councillors and tell them the dog warden is not doing their job. And go to the police as well... if they pass the buck, you have a great deal of ammunition to prove your dog warden is not worth the council wages paid to them.

What would your dog wardens do, if by chance, you picked up this 'stray' dog with no ID and took it into them? They would have a legal obligation to take it in. That might be your next option ;)

But I don't call the above scenario a trivial nonsense - it's got the potential to turn into a very serious problem.
Why should the majority have their enjoyment and their dogs enjoyment of being exercised in their local park
spoiled by the actions of one very irresponsible 'dog owner'?

Is it just a dog being a dog if this American Bulldog/or Am Bull type causes serious harm to another dog?
Because it's owners deem it fine to allow it to have free access to the park area under no control whatso ever.
I know I'd be fuming if it attacked my dogs or worse still killed them (which could happen to someone).

As dog owners regardless of our breeds traits we have to be responsible and understand/or try to understand
others that don't share our love for canines.
Sadly there will be some anti dog society that will never understand those that own dogs.

Whilst I do genuinely feel sorry for those dogs and owners that have been wrongly charged with section 3 of the DDA
if we didn't need that legislatioin it wouldn't be there.
Sadly there are many dog 'owners' and I use that word very loosely that do not act responsibly towards their dogs nor
society as a whole. The person that owns the above AmBull falls into this category.
If we see injustices then perhaps we need to campaign for justice in these areas to reform the act to allow those owners
that have been persecuted 'right of appeal'.

American Bulldogs are highly territorial, they are very protective of owners and their home.
This dog as it has no proper defined boundaries to it's home probably views the park as it's territory too.
The risks that this could have serious consequences for other dogs and their owners are very high.
It has already attacked other dogs - therefore it's learning behaviour that it's ok to be highly territorial
and attack any canine that is being walked on this field.
It's human owners obviously don't give a jot about their responsibilities to their dog or to other members of the neighbourhood
and their dogs. They obviously think that they are above the law that was formed to protect others from owners like this.

As responsible dog owners we have to accept that today's society isn't as dog tolerant as it used to be or doesn't have common sense to
act correctly around dogs. It is our responsibility to protect our dogs from harm and to try and have dogs that are well balanced, well socialised and trained canine members of society. If we don't then obviously we will be at risk. It isn't an easy balancing task when
you add in to the mix the breeds traits and natural behaviours. But in order to live 'in harmony' in society we either have to accept
or campaign for our rights when we see injustices. To be respectful of others when walking our dogs.

But also we need to stand up when we do see incidences of dogs that are out of control before the actions of an
irresponsible dog owner ruins for all dog owners the enjoyment and freedom of being able to free-run/off lead exercise our dogs
in our local parks or woodlands.
As councils now have the power to put dog control orders in place which means that NO dogs may enjoy off lead exercise in
areas where the control orders apply.
I for one would not want that to happen in my area and to only be allowed to exercise my dogs on-lead for the rest of their lives.

United we stand, divided we fall.

In our area the dog wardens don't tend to get involved in S3, they get you to refer to the Police. Its worth calling up and asking to speak to someone in the local dog unit who deals with the DDA for their advice too.

Boxacrazy,

I agree with you, this is not a trivial incident.

As you say, Am bulls are bred for high prey drive and a strong guard instinct. They are incredibly powerful, it's not the sort of dog you want in the wrong hands, or, in my view, the hands of very many. Every Am bull I have come across thus far has been a problem to some degree and often owners are clueless. Recently one near me was put down, the dog that is. It had attacked three dogs in its short life and badly injured one of them. The owner was not a monster or a drug dealer, he simply did not know what he had and did not keep the dog under control. Instead he tried to let it lead its life as a "normal dog" playing in the park and so on. Alas, uncastrated and lacking in proper socialisation and training all its innate instincts came to the fore. Small dogs became prey and once in attack mode its aim was to kill. Like all guard and high prey drive breeds these dogs need massive and committed socialisation, superb obedience training and owners with great dog skills, knowledge and a sense of social responsibility. It's like the average boy driver deciding to drive a Ferrari round the streets, sooner or later someone will get hurt.

This was one of the main things stated by the Police Officers at the seminar to put the SBT owners/breeders minds at rest.

They said that the height specified in the KC SBT breed standard and what "proper" breeders stuck to, was the main thing that immediately ruled out their dogs being considered of Pit Bull type.

Yes a KC standard staff is shorter that an APBT but their are other distinctions, an APBT is proportionally not as broad, is leggier and has far more angulation to the point where it is slightly roached. Basically what an SBT would look like before they were squashed to their modern form. You could still have a 16" dog conforming to type. My point was that a dog too large and to tall for an APBT can still be seized as type.

> Yes, that's what I said in the post....

I know, I was affirming Bez's last sentence :)

> This was one of the main things stated by the Police Officers at the seminar to put the SBT owners/breeders minds at rest.
>
> They said that the height specified in the KC SBT breed standard and what "proper" breeders stuck to, was the main thing that immediately ruled out their dogs being considered of Pit Bull type.
>
> Yes a KC standard staff is shorter that an APBT but their are other distinctions, an APBT is proportionally not as broad, is leggier and has far more angulation to the point where it is slightly roached. Basically what an SBT would look like before they were squashed to their modern form. You could still have a 16" dog conforming to type. My point was that a dog too large and to tall for an APBT can still be seized as type.

Quite scary isn't it?
I think all of the above have relevant points, but if one actually reads the 'enforcers guidance' from Defra, it makes for worrying reading for SBT owners in my opinion.
I've posted this a few times before, so apologies if it has been on this forum before too!

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/documents/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

Another American Bulldog in the news:
http://www.thisisdorset.net/news/8160305.Portland_killer_dog__Pet_owner_s_fury/?ref=rss
" THE owner of a family pet mauled to death by an American bulldog is furious that no action is to be taken against the killer animal.
Elaine White's dog Kassy was attacked and mauled to death on Portland.
She spoke out after it was revealed two other dogs had been attacked at the same spot."

Boxacrazy, spot on. :-) Excellent post.

>      Yes, that's what I said in the post....

> I know, I was affirming Bez's last sentence :-)

It wasn't in reply to you, Tessies Tracey, it was in reply to the person whose post was immediately below my previous one about the DDA - sorry, thought I had hit the 'reply' button to their post. :-)

Edited to correct spelling of your user name, sorry! :-o

Quite scary isn't it?
I think all of the above have relevant points, but if one actually reads the 'enforcers guidance' from Defra, it makes for worrying reading for SBT owners in my opinion.
I've posted this a few times before, so apologies if it has been on this forum before too!

Especially the last line in it:

"Overall the dog should have an athletic appearance, the standard makes no mention of ears, colour, height, or weight."

On a side note, the photo of the dog on the cover is also in Gladiator Dogs by Carl Semencic. I can't remember the exact details off the top of my head, but it is credited as being an SBT (albeit not UK bred).

Good examples of the KC SBT and ADBA APBT are very distinct, but it's the grey area in between that is so problematic.

An e-mail has been sent to Essex Police lets see what happens. Bumped into another lady this norming who said they will not use the park while the dog is allowed to roam free.

surely someone should do  something asap  .  could be a child next time , let alone someones poor dog.

It won't be a child next. Statements such as this are excatly what gets breeds banned imo.
This thread seems to be a big downer on am bulldogs. While they are high drive and guardy their no worse than sheps, 100s of which make very nice pets. I think anytime we're too anti a breed it simply attracts the wrong people too it.

Adam

AT no point can i see from the original poster that this dog has caused harm or shown any aggression to people. (correct me if i am wrong on this)
Just because a dog is dog aggressive doesn't mean its human aggressive.

Regardless of breed no dog should be running around 'out of control' in a public place.

I agree that assuming that because a dog is dog aggressive it will therefore be human aggressive is erroneous. However small children in particular are noted for making noises and behaving like prey species (running round, making high pitched noises etc) - and a poorly socialised high prey drive dog could make a mistake - though it is VERY unlikely, dogs are pretty good at differentiating between canines and humans, and humans and prey - but if it did happen, it would do neither the breed nor dogs in general any favours, not to mention omeone getting hurt. Though, as I said, I agree making the leap from canine to canine aggression or dogs catching rabbits/ injuring cats to 'it could be a person next' is VERY misleading and in terms of the behaviour wrong.

But I don't understand your parallel of the Am Bulldog with 'sheps' (I assume you mean GSDs?). As breeds they are nothing alike and were bred for completely different purposes!

Both big, both have guarding instincts and high prey drive, both popular (though sheps more than am bulldogs). Both perfectly nice dogs in decent hands.

Adam

> Both big, both have guarding instincts and high prey drive, both popular (though sheps more than am bulldogs). Both perfectly nice dogs in decent hands.<br />

I am not sure you can draw a true parallel between the two breeds. And in any case, it is the Am Bulldogs that appear to be a growing problem, with the original poster's loose dog AND another loose dog in another part of the country behaving the same (see link I posted earlier). As one poster noted they are intensely territorial which means, in black & white, if they are allowed to roam they begin to see all their environs as their territory and are more than prepared to defend it aggressively. I think there is far more likelihood of a crossover to human aggression in this type of scenario, with this type of dog, and the type of owner they are appealing to.

I don't think the thread is a big downer on the breed per se.
More so on the irresponsible owner allowing his/her dog to get seriously out of control (and not doing anything about it).

Unfortunately as with a lot of 'other status type' breeds you get an influx of owners that
want the 'status symbol' or 'extension of their ego' dog that looks the part.
Unfortunately for the American Bulldog it fits that criteria.

Unfortunately those owner types on the whole (althou there can be exceptions) do not completely understand
that particular breed or it's training needs just that it 'looks hard' or infact some train them to fight for the
prestige or the 'respect' it brings in their peer circle.
Some use their dogs as a weapon to threaten others.

Sadly at the end of the day it's the dogs that pay the ultimate price for their owners ingnorance/attitudes.
Along the way also some humans will also pay the price for those ego's/attitudes that are also 'out of control' in today's society.
Unfortunately the vast majority of these irresponsible status symbol owners have no respect for their dogs or other members of society and their animals that they share this earth with.
But it's the majority of responsible dog owners that also pay the penalty (and especially those that own the breeds targeted by the irresponsible as status symbols) in society. As it's us that gets affected by any legislation that is brought in.

Adam,

I quite understand where you are coming from with your shepherd comparison, but a shepherd has been bred for certain manifestations of prey drive, the Am Bull was in part developed as a hunting breed and is still used for that. Prey drive is obviously a component in the breeding of each but the job of working/shepherding to command (as distinct from a flock guard that also works alone) and hunting are in some degree different. The Am bull is also known to be quarrelsome with other dogs which adds another element to the mix. Finally, we do not see that many shepherds out and about and, thank goodness, they no longer seem to be a "status" breed. I am seeing more and more Am Bulls etc..

You are right though, in the end it is all about socialization.

I think we all agree that the key point is that the Am bull is not a beginners breed. I return again to my car analogy, you don't put a learner driver at the wheel of a Ferrari, the basics of how to drive may be the same but there is a world of difference in the engine size and how to handle it.