hi,its me again with yet another worry!Help,please!Iwas walking down the street with my two collies,when 3 little boys recognised them and ran up to us,saying"its jess!"the pup(14 months now)snapped at one,luckily,not connecting.Shes known these kids for a while,they throw a ball for her,and shes been brought up with children and has always been fine,however,she is a tad nervous,andwith other dogs,if she doesnt know them,will back off,put her hackles up,and snap,though not actually attack,its always seemed like defensive behavior to me.But this latest incident has made me think,because often,if strangers stroke her in passing,she has ocasionally whipped her head sharply to the side,almost as if she was goingto bite,which made me mildly uneasy,and of course i watch her.But this was out the blue!has anyone any suggestions as how to handle it,give her more confidence-although shes just spent a week away with me and a friend,who has 7 large dogs,and she simply became one of the pack,and loved it.thanks in advance!

a friend suggested she didnt feel secure enough with me,that im not the pack leader soshe feels she has to be in charge,but doesnt want to.i think im fairly firm with her,but my friend says im not because shes allowed to get on the settee,bed etc.im quite happy with that as shes a good little dog,and doing well in her training,and we re enjoying our walks,no major problems,apart from this occasional snapping.to be honest i find all this pack leader stuff very confusing,never know if im getting it right or making things worse.And i used to think I knew how to look after a dog!ive had no trouble since my last post,and ithink what il do in future if children approach,is get in between dog and child,ask child to not rush up and to let jess aproach them when /if she seems happy.maybe 3 kids running at her worried her-it would me!

My GSD is the most gentle dog,but she hates people or dogs running AT her or me if she is by my side. If someone runs at her she goes rigid, shows her teeth and would nip (not bite) if they still kept coming, although if someone, dog or human walks up to her gently then she bends herself in two with excitement to see them and welcomes them into her space. I have had to train my grandchildren to walk up to me and not run as this used to be a problem, but now all is fine. I think maybe having someone run at them they see as a threat, and first reaction is to defend.
When out walking I always ask people to bring their dogs over gently and then she will play with them

she sounds just like my dog - she is very wary of children although she is used to having them around - the oldest - now 5 is fine - they ignore each other most of the time unless my granddaughter wants to 'do some training' with me.  She has learnt to have more respect for the dog.  My 2 year old and 1 year old grandsons both make a bee-line for Meg and go to grab, they are fast squeaky and unpredictable.  Meg has warned them off several times - I have to make sure they don't push her too far.  A snap is a warning but it is not the first warning she has given them to behave themselves - she has already given them the 'eye'.   These 2 have cats that they just squash, carry around like sacks of flour etc - Meg is not like that.  She is very self preserving - comes from the instinct of staying safe in the farmyard maybe.  Meg is 5 this month and she will always be very cautious and nervous. 
Don't let children come straight up to touch your dog.  Make her sit nicely and tell the children to be quiet and calm before stroking taking care they don't go straight over her head or go straight to the back end.  Keep treats and tell her she is being good when she accepts the stroking.  Telling her that her behaviour is good will give her more confidence but you have to protect her from unpredictable children.

> Don't let children come straight up to touch your dog.  Make her sit nicely and tell the children to be quiet and calm before stroking taking care they don't go straight over her head or go straight to the back end.  Keep treats and tell her she is being good when she accepts the stroking.  Telling her that her behaviour is good will give her more confidence but you have to protect her from unpredictable children.

Very good advice!
The "pack leader" thing is oldfashioned. Don't pay  any attention to your friend.
Our dogs all sleep in our bed, and are allowed up on the sofa and armchairs. In spite of this, there is no
doubt what so ever about who's in charge.

thank you,i wasnt prepared at all,tho perhaps i should have been.i will be from now on!ive read before about the pack leader theory being discredited,does anyone know of any reading matter on that subject,please?Or am i likely to get even more confused?thankyou for your replies!

Carol Price - 'Understanding the Border Collie'. 
Just looking up about what she refers to as the 'nip reflex'.  She says that 'the brain of a sheepdog is commonly wired to have a sharp nip reflex as a matter of both efficient working function and survival.  A sheepdog who can't quickly respond, defensively or offensively and with suitable intimidation when managing livestock, is a dog who either quickly loses the respect of that livestock, or runs the risk of having it's head butted in, or other injuries inflicted by the animals concerned'  She then goes on to say that more fearful or dominant-minded character leanings soon discover that nipping and snapping can be highly rewarding behaviour in domestic contexts .... and can escalate into something more of a problem, aggression-wise.
She recommends either diverting attention with a toy or teaching a wind down command like down, stay or watch me and rewarding it when it calms down. 
That is easier said than done when children approach a dog who is nervous - Meg got trapped between both my grandsons approaching from different directions today in the kitchen - the house was full with family - luckily I was right on the spot to speak and calm Meg to let her know that I was in control - diverted one child and got s-i-l to move the other so letting Meg have space.  In this situation children need as much control as the dog - whilst remaining as calm as possible and letting Meg know what I want her to do.  I just wish that my family could just read the dog too and take notice rather than leaving me to deal with the lot - preparing food, child and dog watching whilst everyone natters.  Exhausting.

> a friend suggested she didnt feel secure enough with me,that im not the pack leader soshe feels she has to be in charge,but doesnt want to.i think im fairly firm with her,but my friend says im not because shes allowed to get on the settee,bed etc.

I let my dogs on the furniture too.  And don't insist they wait at the door for me to go through when they want to go out to wee.  I have a BC boy that did this nipping thing as a youngster, particularly when he got over excited.

I made sure that I had something to shove in his mouth and distract him.  He loves fetching me things now!  His nipping was just a trait that I have found in herding breeds, so I knew that it would be easy enough to control, as long as I was consistent.

I don't go round trying to prove I'm the pack leader, and this boy just wants to please me.  Not because he is frightened of me, just because it's in their nature.  And you can stop it by kind methods.  I would now allow a toddler to give him a dog biscuit.  Knowing how carefully he would take it.  Naturally I wouldn't leave a child unsupervised with him, but I feel that with any breed.  You will get there!  :-)

well,ceejay,your family sound much like mine,glad im not on my own!i have 6 grandchildren,aged from 3mths to 9 years,and a selection is here most days as they all live very close,providing food somedays gets exhausting!i cant complain though,theyre all lovely,and fairly good with the animals,but you cant rela x,can you?    - - but thanks for the distraction tips,and reasons behind it all.                    

yes,jess just wants to please,my other collies have been the same,so why would you want to train using unkind methods?theres no need is there?i was once in class doing,or attempting(!)an exercise,when jess became worried about something,and it went wrong.The trainer said she was using avoidance tactics,i.e,"Im a scared little puppy,dont make me work".I thought at the time,a dog cant lie,if its acting scared then it IS scared!She wouldnt avoid work,she loves it!and im glad there are other people who let their dogs on the furniture!thanks for your reply!

Mine has a favourite chair in the kitchen but I don't actually allow her to sit there - she does it when my back is turned and nips off when she hears me coming.  No way am I going to let her think she has a right to sit there otherwise we would never have a chance to sit on it ourselves!  Seriously she is also prone to guarding behaviour and by me sticking to my guns on this one I make sure she doesn't get away with anything. 

yes,and i think thats the kind of common sense and dog savvy i lack,unfortunatly!i could do with a book of do s and donts-but even then,if it felt wrong,id probably argue with it,or feel guilty doing or not doing,it!is there any hope,sigh!

I have been reading my Carol Price book again - not picked it up for a couple of years!  She does use the dominance theory so maybe it isn't such a good book from that point of view.  What it does do is spell out the collie character so well and offer ways of dealing with problems - but she does do the feed after everyone else, walk through the door first thing.  Anyway I have read Barbara Sykes book too and it is much the same thing - both good reads but as you say you will question everything you read anyway - good thing!   I have no dog savvy I am afraid - I found I knew so little about dogs when I had Meg - having had 2 setters before - so easy compared. I have learnt by going to classes, agility and good advice given from this forum.  I read all I can and I feel I understand my dog much better now.  When she first snapped at me (over food) when she was a pup my OH said - get rid of her you can't have an agressive dog.  Well here we are 5 years down the road and she is still with us - a great character but not an easy one.  I now know that her behaviour is because of her breeding not because she is a bad dog.  She would probabally have been an excellent sheep dog.

i have that book,better dig it out,eh!its so easy to get things wrong!yesterday,i went on a walk with a friend and his 5mths bc pup,theyve been great friends.however,pup has grown and is as big as jess now,it was interesting to see how the play has changed,pup is now calling the rules,and,when an innocent dog walker came past,pup ran after and barked,i had a job to control jess,whos usually ok!talk about egging each other on!ive also had to stop going to flyball,at least for a while,as she was just so frantic last time,its a pity as she was quite good,and of course loved it!

> pup ran after and barked

I find a ball very handy to distract my dog when we pass cyclists, runners etc.  Get the dog to be more interested in the owner than other people around.

My shetland sheepdog was a timid but very gentle dog, the one thing he really hated was when we were out on holiday usually on a walk and children shoved their hands or face in his, i was always wary I am no expert but at the time i thought why do people think its ok to let kids do that to strange dogs .... maybe tell them 2 be a bit calmer with your dog... I know in my dogs case it was all down to his nervousness

Its not uncommon,nothing wrong with your dog, just requires some "management" Dont let people dive in on her :( Collies are very sensitive to movement, & quick to react!

I always make mine sit before people stroke them, If people are charging up you should get inbetwen your dog & them , in order to "protect" your dog so not to make a mistake.Then if the people want to stroke her, one at a time & slowley.Hand out to let her sniff first.

Id also teach a "watch me" & "leave it"

thanks for the advice and support everyone!

that is interesting, the comment about colleys being very sensitive to movement...i had the scottish colley for years...and that was an issue with her...FAST off the mark too...was not safe around kids who made sudden strange movements. the dog i have now is a shepherd too but a Belgian, and to date does not have those reactions to kids as my colley did. seem to calculate more rather than instant reaction. mind you...eyesight not as good as the cat for movement either i note. misses the ball many times. i did not have kids i add...i think they need to be used to them early on to know what to do with them. and kids nowadays are a NUISSANCE parents do not control them enough. sigh. am not going to add more than that here...i have VIEWS on things like kids and dogs out of control ! lol...MANAGEMENT seems missing in the case of kids and you try TELLING a parent anything negative about their kids ? ooh la la...worse than a dog bite response i say ! i avoid those too !