Hi,
Im asking this for a friend..she doesnt have access to the internet at the moment.

She had put a deposit on a pup..she was the first to see the litter and chose hers...now the breeder has said that the pup isnt for sale as it has turned out to be better than he thought it was going to be and has returned her deposit...she is devastated to say the least...can a breeder do this and does she have any legal come back.
The pups are 10wks old and she was due to collect next week.

Any help would be great

Sorry to hear of your friends disappointment and the answer to your question is the it depends on the contract your friend has with the breeder. If it was just a receipt for the money then the breeder can reasonable change their mind but if there was a contract signed that stated that the pup selected would be the property of your friend once the balance of the purchase price was handed over that may be different.

Fact is in law a pup is just an item for sale and no one in law can force the owner to sell if they do not want to - it is very bad form to take a deposit and then say they wish to keep the pup but I do not think there is much that can be done. They have at least told your friend the truth they could have said the pup was sick or did not pass the vets inspection and that there were no other pups to spare, that may, of course, be the case but they may not wish to admit it.

Hi Nova
From what my friend was saying I think she may have signed a contract.. although I dont know what it said. she was pretty upset on the phone at the time.
She has been out and bought a crate, the food he is feeding, vet bed, toys and collar and lead, shes had photos from birth up until now.

Some people are really cruel.

That is very sad, and the reason given is really just not on. Whether she has any redress I do not know it will depend on the contract perhaps a visit to the CAB will be helpful. Think the best advice would be to start looking for another pup as I fear looking for redress may just extend the period of pain and distress.

Suppose a letter to the breed clubs and to the KC may help stop it happening to someone else but I don't think it will help your friend.

Yes, I told her to ring the KC and ask for their advice.
Many Thanks Nova.

maybe just maybe.....they decided that she wasnt the rifht owner for their precious puppy nd so this is the excuse they made to "get rid" of her....much like we often see on here when the boots on the other foot and a breeder suddenly decides there is something they dont like about the potential owner? Personally when i breed a litter i breed it for me and for me only....and if I suddenly realsied the best puppy in the litter was going to a pet home, id probably do the same thing myself!

> id probably do the same thing myself!

Yes Sam, I'd do the same thing too.

Sorry Toffeecrisp but there is a big difference between people who breed a litter to sell (but may keep one as the next brood bitch)
and those of us who want a new puppy to continue our line either for showing/work or exceptional health status and see selling the pups we cant keep as a 'neccessary evil'.

In the latter case the puppy owners have to except the fact that the breeder keeps what they want...it is the reason they bred the litter.

I understand where you and Sam are coming from but do you take a deposit and exchange contracts and if so does the contract give both parties the right to change their minds - if so what is the point of a contract and deposit.

I dont take deposits for this very reason but if I had lost my mind and did offer one.... I'd do anything I could to get out of it if I wanted to keep the puppy.

The prospective buyer will be disappointed but it's rather an overstatement to feel that they would be devastated or deeply upset.... annoyed maybe but they dont know the pup, reared it and bonded with it after one or possibly two visits.

Don't depute the rights of the breeder to do as they think best but if a contract is exchanged they the breeder should abide with the terms of the contract or at least the spirit of it. Breeders can't have it all ways if they take a deposit and issue a contract they are no longer free to decide at the last moment that the pup would server their purpose better than they thought and then try to rewrite the contract.

However in this case we do not know how binding the contract was or even what it said which is why I suggested that they take advice but doubted if they would achieve anything.

I can see both sides of this argument... I told a couple the puppy they wanted wasnt right for them...not in those exact word though.. They hadnt signed a contract and although he had sent the deposit, which I didnt ask for, I sent it back.

Ok..maybe devastated is a bit much...very upset...she had been waiting over a year for this pup and was given the choice of all 6..she chose and was then told 6 weeks later she couldnt have it, after signing the contract and paying the deposit...there has to be something wrong there.
I dont know what was in the contract, but she is getting in touch with the KC, although I told her she might still not get the pup anyway.

Sadly, the same thing happened to me 11 years ago and I insisted on getting the pup. Lily came to me at 8 weeks with a huge vaginal infection, which took me 6 months to clear out, leaving her scarred and not able to breed. My vet couldn't work out how she became so contaminated at such a young age. It left me very suspicious as this breeder has since shown herself to be a very unsavoury character in other dealings.

Thankfully, Lily has given me such joy, I am glad to have had her anyway.

For others who may read this post outwith this forum and for what it's worth....

In my experience .....The best way to get a pedigree puppy is to get on the list of a reputable breeder who breeds dogs for themselves -first and foremost- and then forges good lasting relationships with the owners of the rest of the litter. This relationship can be exteemely valuable to you as a source of great information, help and support throughout the life of your dog.

Buying a puppy 'off the peg' and from someone you cant get along with..or worse...dont even know...leaves you with no aftersales help, no back up and probably little guarantee that the breeder even cares about the future of your puppy beyond taking the money for it.

Ok..maybe devastated is a bit much...very upset...she had been waiting over a year for this pup and was given the choice of all 6..she chose and was then told 6 weeks later she couldnt have it, after signing the contract and paying the deposit...there has to be something wrong there.

Yes, both parties were wrong -but of course the main responsibility here should lie with the breeder in my opinion.  I wouldn't dream of letting somebody choose a puppy at just 4 weeks of age, it's far too soon -characters will not have come through properly for a start! Secondly the contract shouldn't be signed until pup is paid for and collected, and thirdly most good breeders would never take a deposit, simply BECAUSE they know things can change. The looks of the pups can change so they may want to keep a different one themselves, the relationship with the potential buyer may change and they may no longer feel it is a suitable home -the list is endless. Yes the buyer should also have been aware of all of this BUT it is far more difficult to find out such facts if you're not in dogs. If you search the net you will find thousands of breeders asking for deposits etc, sometimes even without pups having been viewed or even born!, they don't state "I'm a back yard breeder" or similar, so it can be very difficult for people to find out what they should look for in the breeder, not just in the pups.

I have bred my current litter for myself......................I want the best bitch to keep with a view to show and possibly breed from.

All my puppy buyers were not allowed to view the litter until they were 5 weeks old and those that were wanting a bitch have been told from the start that they have to be happy to have any one of the bitches as I wouldn't be making my decision until the last possible minute.......So when the new owners come to collect at 8 weeks old, they will be advised and can choose from the remaining bitches in the order in which they are on my waiting list.
I did take deposits but a contract will not been signed until the day they collect their puppy.

If she signed a contract already, she must have read through it and have a copy of it, therefore knowing what is detailed within. A contract has two copies, one that is signed and kept by the breeder and another copy given to the new owner. Maybe she only signed a detailed receipt for her deposit, but again, should have a copy?

I don't think this breeder is necessarily cruel, if you are breeding for yourself you simply have to keep which ever pup(s) you deem to be the best prospects, as that is why you did the breeding in the first place. Was she offered another pup in the litter? If not, then maybe they just changed their mind as to her being suitable if they are in regular contact via email with photos being sent etc... maybe she said something that changed the breeder's mind? Or maybe they are just telling the truth and already have the rest of the pups booked. I know that if I was in that situation and I changed my mind for any reason, I'd do exactly the same, afterall I will have gone to the expense of rearing that pup and will have bonded with it. This is a good reason not to take deposits or allow people to view pups until you've made your own mind up as to who is staying or you remove whichever pups you know you haven't decided on. I don't know how anyone but the breeder with intimate knowledge of each pup can choose a pup from 5 weeks of age and even then things still might change over the coming weeks! In fact I know breeders that often go to the extra expense of running a few pups on before making their final decision on who stays.

Toffecrisp, I would have thought maybe you'd have been a bit more understanding of the breeder's side of things, given the recent situation regarding the couple you turned down for your own pup. A fair point that you didn't take a deposit or sign a contract, but those owners were probably still just as upset and disappointed like your friend is. Buying and selling a puppy is a very emotional time for all concerned. Although she has gone to some expense buying a crate, toys etc... she will need this regardless for any future pup, so it's not a waste of money. The food if unopened and purchased recently with a long use by, it may be possible to return it to the supplier for a credit or refund.

this is why in another topic a few days ago I said I dont tell people which is there puppy until I have decided completely that that particular pup is for them , I send info for all the litter and if they dont want to wait then so be it but noone then is upset , if they know they are 'getting a pup' and are happy with the way I work then thats fine if they dont then they have to go elsewhere.

I agree it may just be the breeder has had second thoughts about the prospective new owner something she may have said or done which altered her opinion of her and to prevent an argument she has said she is keeping the pup.
I have heard of this before in my breed not too long ago .

So sorry your friend is so upset but I am sure she will find her new companion elsewhere ..I would put it to bed my self.

I can only speak from the perspective of a buyer but if I had been on a waiting list for a pup for a year, had taken time off work, arranged my life (holidays, work patterns and social life) around the new pup, had bought lots of things in preparation and then was told the week before pick up that I wasn't getting the pup I would be really annoyed. 

I can see why people go to BYB where they can get a pup when they want it and without any of the fuss and hassle associated with going through a reputable breeder.  FWIW I have never bought from a BYB and have never had any issues with breeders sticking to contracts.

We had a stunning litter last year, with 2 orange roan girls, the other family knew there was a pup for them, they just had to wait until I had decided which.  I didn't take a deposit but the family did
come and meet both girls knowing that one of them would be theirs.

sharon m exactly my point

i think its the only best way to do it ! be upfront from the start ,tell new owners to be that untill breeder has picked her own pup theres no choise ,but can still go and meet the litter and get to know them ,and if you get the pup youve have picked then great but at the end of the day the if the breeder is open about this problems dont arise and i think this also is apart of being a good breeder too! IMO

I wouldn't let somebody choose that young either, like others have said you could easily change your mind about which one you wanted to keep. If my girl has puppies this time and there's more than one of the sex I want, I will be telling prospective owners that although after visiting if we like each other I will sell them a puppy, I won't be deciding which one until much nearer the time. Such a shame for your friend. :-(

TheMutts
Thats why I said I could see both sides of the situation...I do understand the breeders side, but to tell someone a week before they collect the pup...I hope I never have to do that. I do understand that we breed for ourselves and I am keeping one of mine

She is going to wait for a while and look around again.

Hi Marriane not sure if I am reading your post in the way you meant, but you state "if you search the net youll find thousands of breeders asking for deposits" and "they dont state I'm a backyard breeder" can you clarify if you are using these statements in conjunction with each other in relation to those breeders who do accept a deposit as a sign of commitment from new owners after the pups and Dam have been met ?
Stan Berry

Hi Stan

I simply meant that there are lots of breeders that take deposits, many bad, some good (although I know of very few good breeders that do take deposits, the only one I can think of offhand is Brainless here -I have never personally been asked for a deposit by any breeder as long as I've had dogs, but it seems virtually all bad breeders do) -but the bad ones don't exactly tell the world they ARE bad. :) Searching the net as a potential puppy buyer it's probably easy to come to the conclusion the majority of breeders take deposits, which I don't think is true of good breeders. Not the majority. I'm not saying taking a deposit equals a bad breeder. I'd never take one myself though for a puppy, I'd feel very uncomfortable with it.

If any breeder has decided that it is time to let new owners make choice of pup (with or without deposit/contract) then that choice should be honoured by both parties unless exceptional circumstances arise E.G. I had two dog pups both equally good show prospects one of which I had chosen to be retained by myself and other chosen by new owner just a few days before collection there pup injured (slightly) his rear leg and had a pronounced limp as unsure that this was only a temporary problem that would not re-occur I spoke with new owner suggesting they take my choice pup which would let me retain there pup to monitor if injury a one off or something more serious, after I had explained everything to them it was left to them to decide which option they wanted to follow. Injured dog stayed with me and went on to a full recovery and to date has either won or been placed in his show carreer  and owners have a dog that they are very happy with, If the need arises and you take new owners along with you in deciding what should be done there is no need for disapointment or hard feelings
Stan Berry

Hi Marriane, Thanks for clarifying that, suppose you can add me to your (short) list of deposit takers as I find it shows buyers commitment to  purchase of pup. I have refunded deposits in past where there has been a genuine reason for buyer withdrawing, in fact there has only been one instance when deposit not refunded and that was exceptional, chap had come several times with two sons to view pups telling me they had lost a dog and it was a replacement and wifes birthday present (not to mention it to her if phoning) two days after sale he asked to return pup as wife crying all the time and parent-in-laws not talking to him. He had not told me that wife was full time carer for a wheelchair bound 17 year old son given less than a year to live by doctors. As pup needed to be re-advertised and further veterinary health check etc. I felt justified in not refunding deposit as buyer had not been exactly straight in describing circumstances in pups new home
Stan Berry

If the need arises and you take new owners along with you in deciding what should be done there is no need for disapointment or hard feelings

Nor a need for a deposit.

I totally agree with being open and honest with puppy buyers and I don't think I'll ever ask for a deposit either, leaves all balls firmly in MY court!! I had one man very keen for a pup from my last litter. All sounded good until he came to visit with his wife before pups were even born. I immediately didn't like him - he definitely wasn't getting any puppy of ours! He wanted to pay a deposit there and then, but I said no. As he had been referred by the stud owner, I called her to say he wasn't getting a puppy and my reasons why. Needless to say he was extremely angry when I made that phone call... I understand he had been disappointed in the past, etc etc, it was our very first litter and if I hadn't been firm he could easily have pushed me into selling him a pup (he was that sort!). No doubt he went elsewhere and got his precious pup, but I can sleep at night knowing it wasn't one of mine!!

We didn't have any problems with buyers who couldn't choose until we had made our final choice. As others have said, they all visited every week from 4 weeks (quite difficult to arrange with 8 buyers), told me their choice between pup a,b, or c, and when we had made our final choice, I called each person and told them which pup they were getting. The pups were 7 weeks old.  I made sure they knew the personality of their pup and that they were suited (most important!) The buyers pretty much let me choose their pups for them... and the feedback from all buyers has been so good, in that without exception all are overjoyed with their dogs, I'll do it this way every time.

At the end of the day it's the breeder who spends every waking moment with those pups, knows them all individually (or should do!) and if they know their breed well, can make sure each pup is a "good fit" for their family. Those experienced owners we had, pretty much made their own choices, but still had the pups earmarked for them (didn't have anyone after any particular pup, luckily)

Do other breeders here think it's a good idea to guide buyers into the correct personality or fit for their family? No matter how cute and cuddly a pup is, it's so important that they can live with the dog.

Anyway, I digress...lol! Back to contracts and deposits... I explained to all buyers that I would not take deposits but that if they changed their minds or decided against, would they do me the courtesy of letting me know immediately of the situation. They all knew they had been hand picked from an extensive list, and nobody let me down, luckily. We had absolutley no problems at all, and everyone who had a booked puppy (all booked before pups even born) took one home.

Honesty is definitely the best policy. If someone isn't going to get a pup regardless, it's the breeder's responsibility to let them know, not drag it out (especially if weeks go by). Buyers appreciate open and honest communication, I intend to conduct any future litters in exactly the same way.

Think we will agree to disagree about accepting/not accepting deposits, I suppose we all have our own preffered methods of doing things
Viva La Difference
Stan Berry

Hi Itsadogslife, Fully agree with you regards guiding buyers (often in first experience of getting a pup) in regards which of pups would best fit with there lifestyle/circumstances but must let them have there input into choosing "their" pup as it will be living with them for many years so they must be happy with choice from day one
Stan Berry

Ah, but if the puppy buyers spend a lot of time with the whole litter, chances are they won't mind which puppy they get... I didn't bother to split up the boys/girls either, the buyers got the whole lot clambering all over them...lol!

Plus, we had a couple of buyers who had children and not previously had a dog. It was extremely important to me (and them) that they got a pup who wasn't going to present them with too many problems. I needed to wait until their personalities had come out before I could say to these people "this pup, or this one would be a certain personality". A steep learning curve for sure, but I must know my breed because so far I was right and everyone was very happy on puppy collection day!

I think the trick is to let them have a choice (to a degree) but also guide buyers to the pups you as a breeder think would be suitable for them.

carnt put it any better itsadogslife ....just how i do it ,but i do take deposits for the other sex im not keeping ,and if new owners just dont care which they have i will take adeposit too x

it works for me :) x

"If the need arises and you take new owners along with you in deciding what should be done there is no need for disapointment or hard feelings."

Nor a need for a deposit.

I agree. I'd never take deposits. If someone wanted to back out, so be it. I don't see it or them as a waste of time, just that circumstances change and sometimes that cute little puppy helps to put everything else on the back burner and pulls at the heart strings. If everything went well, I'd tell them to go away, have a good think about it and get back to me in a few days when they've come to their senses, in the meantime holding the pup for them until they confirm, no pressure. If they confirm, just stay in touch until the pup is ready for it's new home. It's no biggie if anyone backs out on taking a pup, there should always be plenty of good homes in the pipeline to pick and choose from.
By taking deposits, even if you are honest and return them if the buyer backs out for a genuine reason (anyone can make up something convincing anyway especially where money is involved!), why would you want to put yourself through extra stress and paperwork by doing this? Or the risk of legal threats if you want to back out or find someone unsuitable further down the line?

I think some people prefer to pay a deposit for their own peace of mind. I guess if you as a puppy buyer trust your breeder when they confirm that they will sell you a puppy, you don't have a problem. The problems arise when the breeder isn't being honest or open with the buyers.

The last person to be contacted and told we had a pup for them (pups were only a few days old) were also told that if we had any losses, they would be the ones not to get their pup. Others on the list didn't mind which sex they had, so that would have made it easier to swap about. The people accepted this, but ironically were the ones phoning and asking when they could come and "choose" their puppy even though I'd made it clear we would accommodate a choice if possible, but that they "may" not get a choice. In the end, they still got their first choice, so were happy.

I guess when dealing with people, some just have their own agenda, and have to be told how it's going to be...

The puppy isn't theirs until the day they come to collect and have paid their money to the breeder. Until then, it's the breeder's perogative to say no to them. Which is why a good relationship from day one is so important.

As a side note, one of the families I was a little concerned about and who almost didn't get their pup because their 10 year old child was afraid of the adult dogs have so delighted me with how well they've got on with their pup. They've become friends and we meet up occasionally for walks together. It just goes to show that not everyone makes a good first impression, but are really lovely people.

Another gruff chap wouldn't have got a pup either if we hadn't met him and his wife. He obviously hated speaking on the phone and came across as really off! When we met them every time they mentioned their previous dog his wife broke down.  The day they came to take their pup, the wife had to go outside because she was so emotional. Anyway, the first photo's we got were of this chap lying on the floor playing with his pup. I just knew that pup was going to the BEST home! Pays to meet people - every time!

I certainly agree that you must meet the buyers at least twice before selling them a puppy, although in some cases this will not be possible. I didn't take deposits for the last litter we had and found that it worked out fine. Contracts are read over by the buyer the first time they come over and explained to them but they only sign it when they buy the puppy. There shouldn't be a problem with time-wasters if you have a waiting list. I think that the breeder was within their rights to retain the pup that they thought was the best in their litter, although I am surprised that he let your friend choose the puppy. I 'assign' each puppy their owner once they have met me and chatted, and I have never had any complaints. I would suggest that your friend should look at some other litters, no decent breeder will begrudge her looking around for the right puppy. Out of interest what breed of dog was it she wanted?

loulou22
I know we cant mention the name of the breed here so have pmd you.

My friend is much better and has resigned herself to not having this pup....she is going to look around for another and is going to take her time.
She did sign a contract, but no where does it say that the breeder has the right to change his mind if he so chooses. It mainly says what the pup has been eating, if the person decides the pup needs rehoming, nothing about endorsements on the paperwork, which he didnt tell her about until after she had signed it..just a basic contract. She wasnt bothered about the endorsements as she doesnt want to breed, but just thought she should have been told before she signed.

yes breeder should of said about endorsments ,i tell all mine before i even meet them ie over phone or in email.

Everything about my pups is listed on my website and get hopeful new owners to read it before deciding if they want to go ahead with a pup from me, and of course me being happy once we've met etc.  But at least this way they know what to expect.