Why does my 2yr old bitch get to choose whether or not my 4yr old dog gets to have his treat or not?
If they are given bones or chew toys she will (if given half a chance) take hers bury it and then carry on with his.
Again today....I bought some air dryed beef ribs (never seen before). Poor old Jack is warned off by her....he very obligingly walks away and leaves her to it!
I have intervened and brought him and his into a seperate room, but why does he allow this?

Karen

Bless him! He justs accepts that she's the boss.

It must be that simple............She is entire and he isn't and usually the only time she really asserts herself is when in season, that is when I feel sorry for him, for the rest I think he's daft......

Karen ;)

My oldest girl is spayed ... she's boss all year round!!

Just sounds like a healthy pack mentality to me there always has to be a boss in any pack and in yours apart from you its your bitch

I dont kow that I agree, it seems to switch depending on what is going on, sometimes him....most times though her.
Always her when it's to do with extra food things, she also tells him off (vocally) for bed humping.
When it comes to walkiing on or off lead he is in charge.
Karen

But pack mentality changes on neutral ground, or at least it does in our house, our oldest bitch was deffo in charge at home but our boy tended to take the lead outside.

I'd agree with that but then I am one of those people who is happy to refer to my pack as a pack. I know my girl already mentioned is the overall boss at home, except when it comes to going out the door. If I'm letting them into the garden, the oldest boy is vying to get to the pole position so he can go out first ... to scout around and see what's out there. The same when we're off lead walking, he's well ahead and is the first to let us know if there's anyone else about.  Food though, that's the girl's domain!

Thats just like us and the men then!
We are in charge without doubt, however when out and about allow them to take the lead and 'look after us'.
I suppose its the same reason that they ....like men are generally bigger and stronger, we are smaller and wilier.

Karen :)

My oldest boy is also the one to 'grass' up anyone who's doing something they shouldn't!!

My oldest boy is also the one to 'grass' up anyone who's doing something they shouldn't!!

:-D :-D That definitely is the role of my mum's alpha male too, always the one to come and tell us if anyone or anything is out of place, he also takes the lead on walks, keeps the pack safe and chases off any over exhuberhant males that may come to visit or come charging at the pack too full on. The males job is that of pack protector, whereas the alpha female is in charge of the pack and things that are of importance to her. :-)

Your bitch polo obviously values her treats so the male will just have to pinch what she leaves or better still just give him his somewhere else so that he can have a good chew until he gets fed up then no doubt she will take that one too. :-) Dogs know their place, firmly at the feet of the bitch. :-D

I was wondering exactly the same thing myself--I have three dogs who get on as sweetly as anything, but when I brought them a marrowbone each last week the oldest dog made sure he had a taste of all three bones, then rounded them all up to deposit in his favourite corner, and hen I separated all three dogs with their bones they had a chew for an hour or so and then wanted to see about the other's bones...same sgtory oday, with the result that the least dominant dog is not interested in bones at all (or wouldn't have one from my hand) and the little guy stole one when boss dog wasn't looking. As I write boss dog is sleeping next to his hoard, and the least dominant dog is sleeping on my lap--a neat trick for a wet welshie.

Hi,

I'd say because she's learnt she can bully him to get what she wants and he feels intimidated and doesn't want to battle for his food!  I have one here that would do the same given the chance, my little girl can be a bit of a sneaky bully with my bigger girl when it comes to bones and treats, however I have a very strict no stealing policy here, they can have each others bones when they are done but not until they are both done and I'll swap them over for them.  If she knows she can bully him and that you might not step in to ask her to leave his alone consistently then I'd say that's why she gets to choose, and IMO really it shouldn't ber her that gets to choose if he has a treat or not :-)  My Dobe allows my little one to do it because she is uncomfortable with little ones bullying and would rather wait for me to sort it out, why does anyone allow themselves to be pushed around?

I truly didn't think I should interfere in certain aspects.
I do put them in seperate rooms so poor boy can get on with his on his own and in peace, but I thought that was enough interference when it came to pecking order type of things.
Karen :)

Certainly in my pack, if anyone doesn't want to be pushed around they'll eventually tell whoever it is trying to do the pushing! :-) But I'm happy to let them sort it out themselves up to a point.  Dinners are definitely their own, and no one is allowed to steal, but then they can't as they're all fed in their own crate. What I find amusing is when I give them a chewy, they're left to run around and take it to wherever they want to eat it, some it's in crates, garden, sofa, etc. The little pip squeak (the youngest girl), rushes off with her chewy, stashes it and then comes back into the kitchen to see who's a bit slow on the uptake ... that's normally her dad! Rushes off with his, so he then tries to find one that isn't being gobbled.  Alls well in the end though as they eventually sort themselves out and go off to their own place with their chewy, and if someone doesn't want one then that's up for grabs for the first one that's finished ... usually the little pip sqeak girl!  Who is working out how to be boss when she's a bit older!! :-D :-D

Why does my 2yr old bitch get to choose whether or not my 4yr old dog gets to have his treat or not?

Its simple, she is a bitch, and she will rule the roost..I have one here, she makes it her life's mission to make my boy understand he is below her, he cant have anything  , she will take it off him, sometimes I make her leave him be, but she will simply bide her time, she will eventually get it, and then sit with it for 5 Min's,   just let him know,  shes got it and he has not.

Bless him, he gives in most times ,(unless its his tennis ball)  he has accepted long ago   he  is henpecked.  

> Thats just like us and the men then!
> We are in charge without doubt, however when out and about allow them to take the lead and 'look after us'.

I think that's possibly hit the nail on the head - she is in charge - and by body language is telling him what she wants him to do on the walk as well - dogs give off such very subtle cues. ;-) That's my theory anyway. :-)

Hiya,

That in my opinion isn't about pecking order it's about bullying - he should be able to have his treats without fear that she's going to take them off of him - I certainly wouldn't allow any oif mine to be taking things that were given off of another.  I really can't understand why things like that would be tolerated, we have pecking orders ourselves but we wouldn't let one child continually take something of of another child because its bad manners and they would learnt aht they can get what they want by being a bully or intimidating.
There really isn't much inthe way of interfereance to do, I just ask my girls to leave if they look like they are going to steal from the other - if they have something of high value and I'm not around then I;'ll leave them seperately other wise a simple, leave is enough :-)

It isn't true that if a dogs gets fed up with having something taken it will eventually tell the other to bog off, my little one would continually take off my Dobe if she was allowed and my Dobe would let her because she is worried by that kind of thing.

>we wouldn't let one child continually take something of of another child because its bad manners

But dogs aren't children, and have a very different perception of 'correct' behaviour.

>Why does my 2yr old bitch get to choose whether or not my 4yr old dog gets to have his treat or not?

Bitches are almost always in charge in a 'family' (not necessarily related) group of domestic dogs.

But dogs aren't children, and have a very different perception of 'correct' behaviour.

I'm very aware that dogs aren't children but you can use examples to draw parrallels which is all I was doing!!  Often children learn to be bullies and actually don't have a good understanding of 'correct' or expected behaviour unless we show/teach them what we want, much like a dog :-) Letting a dog continually take something off of another is letting them bully, I've never seen one dog take something off of another and the 'bullied ' dog be ok with it, there is always some appeasment or uncomfortable boy language showing stress even if subtle from the bullied dog - they let the other do it because they don't want confrontation or feel initmidated.

It doesn't matter if it's a dog or a bitch doing it, it's bullying behaviour.  There's lots of evidence to show that family groups of domestic dogs have a very fluid heirarchy and not a set rigid hierarchy of one being in charge all the time regardless of the sex of the dogs.

>I've never seen one dog take something off of another and the 'bullied ' dog be ok with it, there is always some appeasment or uncomfortable boy language showing stress even if subtle from the bullied dog - they let the other do it because they don't want confrontation or feel initmidated.

Just like a human parent controlling what their child eats or plays with, then. Is that bullying? No, it's maintaining status, and dogs, being a different species to humans, have a different need for hierarchy. Anthropomorphism can muddy the waters and is why thinking of dogs as 'children' is a mistake.

Just like a human parent controlling what their child eats or plays with, then. Is that bullying? No, it's maintaining status, and dogs, being a different species to humans, have a different need for hierarchy. Anthropomorphism can muddy the waters and is why thinking of dogs as 'children' is a mistake.

Where did I say anything about thinking of dogs as children, I clearly said above that I was drawing a parallel.  It is very relevant because pretty much anything with a spinal column learns in the same way!  Drawing parallels is not thinking of an animals or treating an animal as if it were human, it is using somewthing people can relate to to explain a point, nothing more.

A parent can bully just an any species can, if a parent was repeatedly controlling what therie child ate for the sake of it and because it was of benefit to the parent then yes that is bullying.  If they are controlling because it is of benefit to the childs welfare then of course not, but this dog is not taking off of the other for their welfare!

Dogs as with many other animlas including people learn to do what works!  A dog taking something off of another repeatedly is not about maintaining status, it's about bullying behaviour, if a dog learns that taking something by using certain body language or doing certain things get them the reward they want, whether that be making them selves feel better or getting an extra treat then they will continue to do that, if we don't allow that to happen and they don't get the rewards from that type of behaviour then the behaviour will diminish - it has to be rewarding in some way or the behaviour would become extinct.

A dog maintaining status and bullying are two very different things and a dog that has a high status doesn't need to go around taking stuff off of another to prove it's status any more than it needs to use aggression to prove status, it is much more subtle than that.  Bullying is a very different thing and is not a nice thing regardless of the species!

>Where did I say anything about thinking of dogs as children, I clearly said above that I was drawing a parallel.

You can't draw a parallel between human behaviour and canine behaviour - it's unfair.

>Bullying is a very different thing and is not a nice thing regardless of the species!

"Nice" is a human viewpoint, one not shared by most other species, and certainly not dogs! Nobody would expect horses or lions or piranhas to share 'nicely', so why would they expect dogs to - unless they've mentally categorised them as faux-human?

>Bitches are almost always in charge in a 'family' (not necessarily related) group of domestic dogs.

Certainly is the case in this household.  My dog is older and has been here longer, but the bitch rules the roost in the house.  Outside, on neutral territory, is a different matter...he is inclined to take the lead and she'll happily follow. 

Umm, yes you can draw parallels between human, canine, cat, rat etc etc etc behaviour because as I said, anything with a spinal column learns in the same way, if you can't draw parallels I guess a lot of scientists are a bit stuffed then! 

Clearly dogs and people are different and have different needs after all, people and people are different and that's in the same speicies, but lots of brain function and chemistry are the same, as well of lots of body functions which undoubtedly means that you can draw parallels, once again it has nothing to do with anthropomorphism. If a dog finds a behaviour rewarding then they are more likely to repeat the behaviour, if a person finds a behaviour rewarding the they are more likely to repeat the behaviour, so there is a parallel that has nothing to do with anthropomorphism and you could hardly call it unfair.

But like I have already said it is just a way of making a point so has nothing to do with fair or not.  However how can you say 'it's unfair' which is a human view point but question me for saying something is not nice :-D

We don't live with lions or horses so closely, is it ok to draw parallels between them then! However having had horses if one was a bully over the other then they get fed seperately or the feeding is done under supervision so they they don;t get to bully the other out of their dinner. 

I don't expect my dogs to share nicely by natural choice I want them, having taught them what I want and made it clear and rewarding for them to do so, to leave another to have what was given to them in peace and to ues bullying behaviour as it means less stress for the one that may be bullied.  I mean if it's not ok to teach dogs not to bully because it's not natural, well then why teach a dog to sit or not to beg for food at the table, it's all about teaching behaviours that make our lives together more comfortable and enjoyable for all concerned.

However the not nice comment was just my personal opinion on bullying behaviour, as I said, regardless of species!  I've not really got anything further to add as it seems a little pointless to carry on going in circles.

> Umm, yes you can draw parallels between human, canine, cat, rat etc etc etc behaviour because as I said, anything with a spinal column learns in the same way

But the hierarchy / social structure of humans is different to cattle, is different to dogs..... That is different to learning.

The key is that you have to work within the canine social structure, not think of it as a human one - which is what I was trying to say. In this situation it seems evident the bitch is taking charge. I can't now remember if the OP asked for advice on what to do - but I would give her her chew stick first - don't know if that's being done or are they both getting them at once? Does she do this at feeding time too?

Simplest solution if you don't like the behaviour is just to give each of them the chew stick in a seperate room, with a door between. :-D And I am much too tired to get complicated. ;-)

But the hierarchy / social structure of humans is different to cattle, is different to dogs..... That is different to learning.

Absolutely but a dog that is repeatedly taking from another dog has learned that it is a rewarding thing to do which makes it about learning, it is using bullying behaviour to get what it wants and is getting a reward from that, as if it was because they were top or in charge then they would hae no need to go around proving they were the top girlall the time, it is much more subtle than that!  Heirarchy and learning can be connected, though this really doesn just sound like a case of learned behaviour rather than anything to do with structure.

The key is that you have to work within the canine social structure, not think of it as a human one - which is what I was trying to say. In this situation it seems evident the bitch is taking charge. I can't now remember if the OP asked for advice on what to do - but I would give her her chew stick first - don't know if that's being done or are they both getting them at once? Does she do this at feeding time too?

Yes but unfortuntely people have thier own interpretations on what a canine social structure is, often based on old flawed theory based on wolf packs.  The idea that the 'top dog' should be fed first etc is based on just that, it comes from the theory that the alpha would always get to eat first, which wasn't actually correct, if there were young, and food was limited then the young would eat first, if there was plenty of food to go round then all would eat at once, not the alpha eating first before everyone else, but all together.

>The key is that you have to work within the canine social structure, not think of it as a human one
>Simplest solution if you don't like the behaviour is just to give each of them the chew stick in a seperate room, with a door between.

Quite right. :-) Their behaviour is socially correct for their species.

> Simplest solution if you don't like the behaviour is just to give each of them the chew stick in a seperate room, with a door between. <img alt=":-D" src="/images/default/sml_lol.png" class="sml" /> And I am much too tired to get complicated.

Just what I do....................
It only happens for 'special treats' not normal meal times where they are content to eat alongside each other (from seperate bowls).

Karen :)

> The idea that the 'top dog' should be fed first etc is based on just that, it comes from the theory that the alpha would always get to eat first,

That depends how you are thinking about it. I don't go with the 'traditional' alpha theory, alpha rolls and all that drivel (to use a technical term ;-) ) - but dogs are still social animals and have their own hierarchy, which needs to be respected by the humans or you can end up with huge problems (I have had a very hard lesson in it) - and respecting that canine pecking order can make a huge difference.

The trouble is, as soon as you start using a human emotion/ behaviour - like "bullying" - it is anthropomorphising. I agree that dogs will learn and repeat rewarding behaviours - but there is a lot more to it than that IMO. :-)

Hi,

Why is it anthropomorhising to use a word that describes behaviour, I am after all human so am going to use words to describe something.  The word bullyinmg may be emotive if you think of it in human terms but I'm not, I'm tallking about a dog that uses certain behaviour, body language to get it's own way - bullying!  I'm not talking about premditated meanness - if that's what you equate to bullying as a persons emotional view then you would be looking at it form an emotional perspective but I can assure you I'm not ;-) I'm simply using a word to describe behaviour.

Dogs can be social animals yes, but actually there is so much misitnerpretation about hieracy and pecking order and even some of the original experts in it have done a u turn.  I take in dogs that have troubled pasts and are pretty damaged and manage to get them to cohabit, if I left them to sort out their own pecking order, well it wouldn't be pretty and wouldn't really be about pecking order though many might interpret it that way.  As it is I work on behaviour, making it easy for them to get thing right and manage where that isn't possible yet, pretty much everything dogs do is behaviour, some of it more innate than others but it is all behaviour which can be worked on/moulded and I think lots of people cause problems by focussing far too much on pecking order/pack structure etc etc.

Probably about half of the cases I deal with that are dog/dog aggression/problems in a multi dog household are where people have left the dogs to get on with it and to sort out their own pecking order or follow that train of thought (obviosuly we are getting away from the original post here and I'm not refering that at all) and dogs have learnt to get what they want by usig a certain set of behaviours, this can lead to other dogs shutting down and leading to all sorts of prolems from inappropriate toileting to incompliance, it can cause other problems such as oscasional fights which could be avoided, or worse, to fear and avoidance behaviours.  A large percentage of the time when you go in and change things so the dogs know what is expected and show them what is wanted and give them clear guidlines and makes things rewarding for them and build up positive association where there previosuly weren't any and teah the dogs some self control it makes a huge difference to the dogs and people quality of life.  Not about peking order, but behaviour and teaching what is wanted/expected in a positive way.

Some relevant links, even some of the experts use words like bullying etc to 'describe behaviour' ;-)

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/dog-behavior

http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-your-dog-dominant-or-just-feeling.html

http://www.fun4fido.co.uk/blog/debunking-the-dominance-myth.html

Sorry in a hurry so just posted a couple but not read through to refresh and see how much is relevant ot his particular thread , althoug erlevant to the way it now heading

> Why is it anthropomorhising to use a word that describes behaviour

It isn't! And I didn't say that it was. But "bullying" is a HUMAN behaviour coming with HUMAN emotions - so would be appropriate to describe HUMAN behaviour. :-) You are saying the dog has learnt a behaviour is rewarding and is therefore repeating it - fair enough - but that isn't 'bullying', it's repeating a behaviour that works. 'Bullying' is done for the sake of it/ to be unpleasant/ to make someone else feel bad - dogs are clever, but one of the reasons we love them is because they DON'T use those unpleasant human behaviours like bullying etc in that way. They are dogs and they behave like dogs. They don't have a sense of self - and I think you need a sense of self to bully. Is this dog bullying its leg?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhhWpXP_nfs

I think part of the problem is finding neutral words to describe behaviour (and I agree it's difficult) - 'bullying' has far too many human connotations and to me gives the wrong impression of the dogs motivation. Do you see what I mean?

I personally think she (Poloaussie's dog) is using the behaviour to show her position in the canine hierarchy - I also agree that she is now likely to find it rewarding - and yes it is up to the humans to manage that - which Poloaussie is :-)  - and though the positions can be fluid, dogs have their own social structure, and it is important for THEM to know where they stand in relation to each other for happy canines. :-)

> if I left them to sort out their own pecking order
> where people have left the dogs to get on with it and to sort out their own pecking order

I'm not saying to do that, and nowhere have I - can be a recipe for disaster, especially if the dogs have poor social skills - the humans have to manage it, but you can't IMPOSE the social structure on the dogs and decide which comes higher in the pecking order..... it is dependent on the dogs present, their characters, etc... You have to work WITH the dogs own social structure - yes, certainly training, guidelines, boundaries involved, I agree there, you don't just get dogs and leave them to it (I also am getting well away from Poloaussie's post now as I am sure she wouldn't dream of doing that!). But are you arguing that a social species (domestic dog) does not have a social hierarchy and pecking order that you need to consider when you are implementing the behavioural work? I am not equating domestic dogs with wolves here btw.

I had my boy first then introduced my girl, and from the age of 10 weeks she ruled, she is the boss over the boy, now i have another bitch she is now 8 months and she rules the boy but not the older bitch, she knows that she is in charge, but out on walks the boy rules, but they both look after the pup, espically if another dog goes for her!!  All my dogs are kept on leads whilst out on their walks!!

Bitches do tend to be the pack leader, not sure why?  But they always have been in my house, well after me off course, lol.

I totally agree with this post!

In our house, my girl is definitely the boss. They don't get chewy treats, but if they ever have something really high value such as a pigs ear, they both head off to be on their own, and I ensure they can finish it in peace. During mealtimes they have never fallen out but will always check each other's bowl out after finishing.

My bitch loves her tennis ball, my boy not so much, but if he ever gets to it first, she'll never "take" it from him, but will follow him around until he drops it, then whip it up and come running for me to throw it again. When we had a young 10 month old male pup returned to us, she did wrestle him to the ground once and extracate the ball from his mouth... I read into this that she took it because she "could", I didn't see it as bullying at all.

Her bitch pup kept by my daughter, now a year old, has stayed with us regularly, and it's funny to see the structure between them. Mum is definitely top dog, bitch puppy next, then poor castrated boy last. I have a lovely series of photo's where the pup and my male were lying next to each other and had 3 sterilised bones between them. First pic one each, second pic pup takes bone from boy, third pic boy gets another bone, fourth pic, boy looks away as pup takes the last bone. In the end she had 3 bones and he got up and walked away. Some might feel sorry for him, but surely it's his choice to let the pup take what she wants. Peace has always reigned in our house.

The way I perceive it is that the top ranking dog will simply take things from others just because they can. It asserts their status, and the other dogs in the house will accept and relent, that is why they are lower ranking. I don't believe in interfering unless physical harm is being done, but it's never got to that stage in our house.