my OES is 6mths old, deaf, and loves to chase leaves or bags that fly around when we are out, which is fine when he isnt on his lead.  but as you can imagine, a lorry drives passed and whoooossh all the debris flies up in the air and he pulls after whatever it is.   other than this he is really good on the lead, walks to heel, stops at kerbs etc.  will he grow out of it?  what should i be doing to stop it, i cant always pre-empt these ninja leaves! :)

Some ideas here, from a very good trainer & behaviourist:
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/

It shouldn't matter that your dog is deaf... David's work suggests a lot of ways to train out a chasing instinct which relies mainly on visual.
He may seem to grow out if it but what usually happens is that he then directs the chasing thrill onto other things, so best to re-direct it while he is still young :)

great article and explains alot about why dogs chase.  i have emailed to asked advice on adapting the training technique.

Excellent article. I have a whippet who I had to stop eating poo. I taught him leave it & also have been working with him & a ball when we are out. I make it exciting, his retrieve is really coming on. I have also bought him a real rabbit dog tug. Be careful if you search on the internet though, I came up with some rabbit toys, which were not intended for doggies. Stanley ony gets his real rabbit tug when I decide he can have it, he loves it! http://www.tug-e-nuff.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=57

> Be careful if you search on the internet though, I came up with some rabbit toys, which were not intended for doggies.

and LOL!!!
I've found some others (gundog training aids! not the other sort!):
http://www.sportingsaint.co.uk/product_list/27
my only worry would be that it might transfer the chasing onto real rabbits... however I also found this:
http://www.sportingsaint.co.uk/product/807/category/57
so in theory you could scent the rabbit dummy to smell totally unlike a rabbit and get him hooked on that scent - make it smell like something your dog is NEVER likely to really encounter, such as Grouse (unless you live in Scotland of course!). I'm wondering if these scent sticks work, they might be a really fun thing to use for scent games..... or perhaps essential oils would work just as well? Or would it be a bad idea to get a dog hooked on the smell of Vanilla??

> Or would it be a bad idea to get a dog hooked on the smell of Vanilla??

All those kids getting mugged for their ice-creams :-D

these are great, having a dog has brought a whole new shopping experience.

the site doesnt give much instruction, i am guessing that you cover the canvass "toys" with the chosen scent oil?  think i might have read they were injectable?  can anyone tell me before i place an order.  also, i am generalising that all dogs would be interested in chasing one of these not just hunting dogs.   maybe i could get a lamb one!

I really have no idea, but at a guess I don't think it will be automatic, or shouldn't be assumed so.
I read somewhere else about making a toy "special" which would probably work.... though have not tried it myself:

How to make it special? (this also works for a dog that is reluctant to hold a retrieve article), get your toy, which must be something your dog has never had before. Put it in a scrunchy paper bag.

Get the bag out and scrunch it a bit, saying to your dog ' what have I go' 'whats this' etc. etc. but don't let him have it. Put it up out of the way. Do this two or three times a day for two days. Next step is to take the toy out and wiggle it around, still winding the dog up, but they can't have it. Put it back in the bag out the way, do this for two days. (don't use any negatives at all when doing this exercise).

By now when the bag comes out, your dog should be really interested. Get the bag, get the toy and have a game really winding your dog up. You don't let the dog have it, just share it and stop literally after a few seconds, always before the dog wants and put it back in the bag and put it away. (don't tell the dog leave, or use negatives, prise out of his mouth if you have to, or teach the dog to leave on a polite 'thankyou'.

Continue to use the toy only for 'special' play and you always retain it at the end. You always finish the game first while the dog still wants.

I'd love to be able to credit an author for that, but it was something I picked out at random & saved.

You don't need a scrunchy bag, you just need to associate value with an object, for a dog that isn't a strong retriever, if you value an object, it is more likely to be interested.  I used to practise with my two, scenting pieces of gravel and asking them to retrieve that piece after I'd thrown it onto a gravel driveway, both started out with working trials training and were used to a range of articles. 

For heelwork, you need to find a way of getting them focussed on you, for me, I use their lead, they get to hold the end of it, if they are doing nice heelwork, but they have to work nicely to get to keep it, and I pretend to try and get it back off them.  Now 95% of that is without the lead in their mouths, but me making a fuss of the end of the lead, making it a valuable object for them to want to hold, getting their attention, pretending I might let them hold it but taking it back.  I never have an issue getting them back on lead, they pretty much stick their heads in the loops at the right times of their regular walk, because on lead to them means more fun, not an end to any fun. 

Just to mention, rabbit skin, or feathers for that matter, don't at all mean to a dog that it must immediately seek out the real thing, all it does is accustom a dog to holding fur and feather, the same as you teach them using canvas, hard plastic, foam dummies.  I use a variety of shaped, size, weight training toys and dummies, some with fur or feather, but just to get them used to holding them in their mouth. 

AS he is deaf I would teach him an attention cue of you tapping him on the hindquaters. To do this wait until he's lookign away from you and touch/tap his hindquaters. This will cause him to look around at which point you can smile/thumbs up him and give a treat. Just repeat this until he swings round in anticapation of the treat when ever you touch him. Do this in the house, then garden then park.
When you want to tackle the lorries go somewhere were they pass regularly at a distance. Whenever he looks tap his hindquaters and when he swings back simile/thumbs up and treat. Gradually move closer over an extended period of time.

For off lead I recomend a vibrating collar (a decent one though as he has thick coat) you teach him to respond to it in excatly the same way and it works great at a distance.

Adam

Barry Eaton, who has done lots of work with deaf dogs, doesn't recommend a vibrating collar. I can't remember why the heck not now. How annoying! If you've not seen his book, I'd suggest getting a copy - it's good :)

Eton teaches dogs to check in with you regularly, this is great (for all dogs imo) but if your deaf dog is dead focused on something (which is likely in a pastrol breed) he is less likely to check so you cannot give a visual recall cue. I use a vibrate collar as an attention getter (in the same way a hearing dog responds to his name or a whistle) which means it doesn't matter which way the dog is looking.
I believe Eton dislikes using a vibrate collar as a marker signal. I'm inclined to agree with him for this (except in some cases) as its not needed but for real freedom and communication the vibrate collar is invaluable. An alternative is to teach a hearing dog to go and get the deaf one, but this requires a hearing dog with some training.

Adam

> Eton teaches dogs to check in with you regularly, this is great (for all dogs imo) but if your deaf dog is dead focused on something (which is likely in a pastrol breed) he is less likely to check so you cannot give a visual recall cue.

Why would a pastoral breed be less likely to check on you? Hound breeds surely would be harder to pull back from a distraction, i.e. rabbit scent or prey movement. And what about all the deaf Dalmatians, now there's a breed which can be a lot more independent than any pastoral or hound breed as they were bred to work fairly independently, without a handler to check back to *puzzled*.

Pastoral breeds tend to focuse on things in a visual way. Especially sheep dog type breeds. I agree as a trule a deaf pastoral breed will check in better than any other but if something catches his eye (such as movement) he will tune out like a hound on a scent. This is very problamatic with deaf pastoral breeds because when they can hear their tendancy is to be very into verbal commands. Take the hearing away and they have a tendancy to loose that and get fixated on movement very easily.
I've worked with a few deaf collies which had this problem hence the vibrate collar which fixed it entirely.

Adam

I emailed Barry Eaton when my parents first got their deaf Lurcher.  He recommended against a vibrating collar because he said you need to train the dog to keep an eye on you, a vibrating collar can be ignored, and it can also break if the dog decides to go swimming !

Ah yes, that's what it was! It was about training the dog to keep an eye on the owner, as you say; it's obvious really :)

Thanks for reminding me.

The disadvantage of relying on the keeping an eye on you is if the dog has his eye on something else (such as a bunny or a moving leaf) he won't be as likely to look back at you and you loose all communication.
The vibrate collar also allows you to train chase recalls ect.

Adam

Personally I'd much rather have my dog understand that regular checking in with me was very important, than use a vibration collar. Firstly not all dogs like the sensation, although they might be able to be desensitised to it. Secondly, what if the collar was not working at a crucial moment?

If I ever have a deaf dog, I'd use Eaton's way myself.

Hi Lindsay. I see your points but would still advise the vibrating collar, why limit communication?

Adam

>I see your points but would still advise the vibrating collar, why limit communication?

Why reduce communication to electronic gadget level, when person-to-dog communication can work so well, when properly taught? A dog will bond much better with a human being when gadgets aren't involved, on all levels not just with deaf dogs.

a deaf dog can ignore a vibrating collar just as a hearing dog can ignore your voice .... much better to have the foudation training there first.

Hi Adam

I have just read this post and saw that you suggest tapping a deaf dog on its hindquarters to get attention. 

I'm glad you wrote that as I once read Barry Eatons book and he said you should never get a deaf dog's attention by touch as it could startle it and make it snap.  I can see that you shouldn't do that if the dog is asleep but for the life of me  I can't see why you shouldn't do it at all!

If any other dog is sensitive about being touched, groomed, at the vets etc the solution is to gradually and gently touch it more and more so that it gets used to being touched and learning that it's no bad thing.  Dogs that have been consistently handled from being weeks old are much less reactive to it so for the life of me, I don't get why BE said don't do this with deaf dogs.

Can you or anyone else explain please.

Why not contact him and ask him directly?

Because someone here has already commented on touch for attention and others here have/had deaf dogs.  Asking here will get a wider experience/ideas on the subject than just one man and his dog who, at the time of writing a book chose to say don't do it but never explained why.  I find that odd.  Surely if there were reasons why,  it should be said in the book otherwise it leaves the reader who's looking for help and advice only partly informed and, by default, mostly ignorant.

I'd have trying to second-guess someone's reasons is fairly pointless when there's the opportunity to get the factual information from the source.

My guess is that he wrote what he did because of his personal experiences with dealing with deaf dogs. However without asking him I don't know.

this interests me, as i once had an OES pup for a few weeks of my sisters litter than was deaf...and i did not know what to do about when not seen by it...now i was thinking...there might be some sounds that even deaf dogs can hear ? some ultrasound things ? sounds humans can't hear but dogs can ? maybe there is a deaf dog expert that would know...progress has been made on these deterrent sound things for dogs and alls sorts...would be useful to know ! that a deaf to normal sounds dog can hear something nevertheless  not obvious to other ears !

I'm not looking for 'second guesses' as to why the author says don't do it JG.  I am looking for others experience and ideas on the matter as  they may Know why.

Black Fairy

I don't know about ultra sonic sound devices specifically for dogs with hearing problems but there are certainly Ultra sonic devices out there which are used to interrupt or stop unwanted behaviours.  Some can be heard by the human ear and some are pitched so that dogs, whose hearing is far more acute and sensitive than humans can hear the sound.  I suppose 'Silent' Gun dog whistles are a similar tool. 

There have been vibrating collars available to get the attention of deaf dogs, particularly useful for recall and widely used in the States.  Barry Eaton doesn't recommend their use either and I think someone on here has already mentioned that.  Someone they knew had emailed the author on that subject as his answer was to train your dog to check in with you.  The vibrating collar is supposed to do just that.  Just as with a hearing dog you would call his name and/or give the verbal cue to get attention and follow it up with a recall, with a deaf dog you train the dog to understand that the the 'vibrate' means to check in/get the dogs attention and then you give your recall signal. 

Maybe the person who asked Barry E about the use or not  of vibrating collars also asked why not to use touch to get attention??  

Any suggestions anyone?  This is a genuine question and would be interested in any thoughts.

>now i was thinking...there might be some sounds that even deaf dogs can hear ? some ultrasound things ?

There is the BAER test that electronically measures the brainstem responses to sound input of varying pitch and decibel; if the brain does not respond then the dog cannot hear anything at all in that ear.

However deaf dogs can feel vibration (from the floor as people walk about, etc) and sense air movement just like any other dog can, which is why only the BAER test is considered proof of actual hearing ability.

>I'm not looking for 'second guesses' as to why the author says don't do it JG.

Sorry, I misunderstood you when you said "I don't get why BE said don't do this with deaf dogs. Can you or anyone else explain please." That's why I thought it simplest to go straight to the horse's mouth, as it were. Sorry for the confusion.

JG

That's exactly why I am confused as to why BE says don't use touch.  If you are so close to your dog that you can touch it, it will know by floor vibration as you walk up if you needed to, or by your personal scent, or air movement, that you are there.  It might not be looking at you but it will know you're there so touch should not startle it.  If my dog  is focused on something and not 'hearing' me because sound is selectively tuned out with the intensity of the focus he will turn around if I touch him without jumping out of his skin.  Ok he's a hearing dog but deaf dogs' tend to make up for the loss of one sense with others - eg scent, air movement, vibration etc so if sound is tuned out permanently even if he's looking elsewhere a dog should know you are there so why is touch a no no.

I think I will agree with Adam on this unless someone else comes back with a reason. 

Re the touch thing. I agree with you about the need to touch them. I think any dog who can't cope with a  touch is a bite waiting to happen or at least very stressed dog. More so with a deaf dog as unlike a hearing dog you can't call it to tell it what your about to do.

The vibrate collar simplfies things a great deal and is much easier than relying on the dog checking you out. As someone said any training needs foundation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLx-hHhvIVQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsBWSOWgYY8

Adam

Hi Adam

Watched the video of the deaf dog with interest, especially when mingling in with all the other dogs at the 'water hole'.  How many times did he get jostled by the other dogs and not once did he snap!  That's what 'real' life is like, dogs are going to be touched in a variety of ways and need to be able to cope with touch to be well balanced, well adjusted dogs!

Such a shame it is not clear in his book what the reason is for avoiding touch as this is probably the most well known book for owners of deaf dogs to refer to.

> I think any dog who can't cope with a  touch is a bite waiting to happen or at least very stressed dog

You have never lived with a deaf dog have you?

My last dog went deaf, touching him to GET his attention could startle him (this does NOT mean he lived in a constant state of stress - 'startle' is a sudden feeling), but touching him when he knew you were there was fine - he loved a fuss.

> More so with a deaf dog as unlike a hearing dog you can't call it to tell it what your about to do

No but you can make sure the dog knows you are there BEFORE you touch it, by ensuring it has smelt you/felt you near (via vibrations through the floor).

ETA you can obviously also make sure the dog knows you are there by cathing his sight - sorry, I had forgotton this as towards the end we could not rely on this as our dog was loosing his sight too.

Perhaps he means you shouldn't touch the back of the dog without it having seen you first. Approach from the side or front and the dog will see you - touch is important for all animals and humans but shouldn't be done in a way that can startle them. I expect every one of us has been startled at some time by an unexpected touch when we are concentrating on something else - we tend not to react with a bite but we can "snap" back.

Looking at the 2nd video link,Adam,the collar being used is a e collar with a vibration function isn't it? So,presumably,the vibration is used before the shock-so the dog is only responding because it knows a shock is coming-its not a positive method is it? The dog looks stressed in the video and isn't working for rewards although the trainer does give him a couple of token titbits so it doesn't look quite so bad.
Well,thats the way I see it anyway.Why can't the vibration be used as a positive thing?

I haven't lived with a deaf dog but have trained a few. The touch method (done properly) works well according to the owners who live with the dog.

The trainer uses the vibrate as a additional cue (kinda like saying hurry up to a person) she does use the stim element of the collar as well. Her tendancy is to add the vibrate to every command as a physical signal and only use the stim if the dog ignores. TBH I don't think she's the greatest e collar trainer ever. The dog is showing appeasment behaviour in the video (mostly the one were its just her and the dog) this is normal in a training context as dogs are social animals and like to remind us they just want to cooperate.
I don't believe he was distressed as distressed dogs won't eat.

Adam