I knew life would be different with two dogs but walking them together is NO fun. The older dog, 4 year old Golden is great, he runs around but comes back to me and keeps an eye one me all the time. The new lad a 7 month PointerX Springer has to be on a long lead or line because he would be off into the distance. He started off as a pup being off lead and coming back no problem and then gradually went further away until one day he was off over the far end of a field near a road chasing flying birds or following his nose after anything. On lead he starts off well and we can get his attention but then we might aswell not be there. No matter what we do to attract him from waving his favourite treat under his nose, drop them on the floor near him, squeek toys, throw balls or favourite toys for him to find he pulls and pulls with his nose going everywhere else. We stop when he pulls until he comes part way back to us and the lead is slack but he then rushes off to the end of the lead again, side to side nose to the ground or watching any birds. By the end of todays walk I had him by my side at heel but he was not concentrating on me as I tried to stop, walk the other way, turn right or left. He was totally distracted. I stopped and went down to his level but he just kept looking everwhere around him and COMPLETELY ignored me. When we got home I walked into the garden and he greeted me as if I had been out without him and he had not seen me for ages!!??
My partner and I feel ourselves getting extremely frustrated with him so we have to take it in turns with the lead but we are both exhausted and fed up in the end. I try VERY hard to keep calm when I walk him on my own but in the end my arm is aching from him pulling and I am really upset because I do not appear to be getting anywhere with him. I am trying to do long line training for 10 minutes each day but he seems to be getting worse with that by not coming to me hardly atall. I go to classes with him and we have had a 121 recently.
At wits end.......can anyone suggest anything to help.

You've got a dog of two gundog breeds who are on their own more active than a Golden so not surprised that he's off and away.  At home and on a long lead I would do some gundog type things, hunting for treats/toys, retrieving etc.  He's just doing what his breeds were bred for.

* Passes a cuppa * ( <- It's got a good slosh of Brandy in it!! ;O) )

I'm so sorry I'm just about to head out so haven't time to post what I'd like but in the meantime one of my tips would be to consider this:
Turid Rugaas - How to loose leash walk DVD As Turid says in the clip the problem is 'universal' so I strongly believe that it is good for owners learning training as much as their dog to watch others, often its not 'til you start to recognise 'mistakes' in other's handling that you can start to see it in your own and improve your technique :-) So this DVD is brrrrilliant for doing that!
    I'm suggesting this method as you have classes and 1-2-1's already but sometimes we get to the 'can't see the wood for the trees' stage esp. when getting stressed/ fed up.

Good Luck!!! you *can* do it! I'll pop back later tonight, but hopefully you'll get lots more tips and encouragement by then. :-)

Your pup is reaching the adolescent stage where, in almost every case, learning goes out of the window; with a cross between two independent, free-ranging, active breeds the challenge will be greater than with others. This stage can go on for several months - maybe even a year - before the dog starts to settle down and act like a more mature animal. It's no coincidence that this is the age when very many dogs are given up to rescue because the owners can't cope. However with a lot of hard work and one-to-one concentration with him you should have a wonderful dog when you get through the other end.

How often do you walk the dogs separately?

It is perhaps because I am a lousy trainer but I find it impossible to train one dog when walking another, best to take them separately till the young man has learned some manners and on the odd occasion take them together but keep both on the lead.

Ditto Nova.

I have been told about this adolescence stage before and yes, I do recognise that is where Burt, the pup is. So I realise he is going to be difficult for a while(?). I am not about to give up on him so I am appreciating advise. Problem is I suppose that when you get advise how much of it can you follow without getting confused?? I DO love him to bits really but it does not stop me wanting to nearly kill him on our walks...............
I walk Burt on his own probably only once a week but I think I need to take the Golden out on his own more and just train with Burt.

>I DO love him to bits really but it does not stop me wanting to nearly kill him on our walks...............

Oh, I so recognise that feeling! I would suggest (having been there with a dog of my own!) that individual walks should be the norm for a few months, with maybe a joint walk as a treat at the weekend when you can both go with the dogs. Lots of brain-training at home as well to help tire him and get him more responsive to you. It can be a very difficult and frustrating time, but there honestly is light at the end of the tunnel. :-)

Hi lyndob, I can't quite make out whether Burt has recently joined you, or whether you've had him from a pup - I appreciated he's only 7 months old. Either way, it doesn't really matter, the important thing is that you take him out every single day on his own, preferrably a couple of times, only that way can you train him to walk as you wish. Lead training has to be consistent, so if you're going to follow say the Turrid Rugaas method (stop when leash tight, or walk in opposite direction when tight), or indeed any other method, then you've got to do that with him as an individual. Don't be tempted to save time in the day by taking the two out together, as you're other dog will get frustrated, and the youngster will hone in what the other dog is doing anyway, and give less attention to you.

It's a total pain having to do that, but putting the work in now over the next month or so really will pay dividends, and you'll have many years of happily walking them out together. I've got 5 dogs that I walk all together, and I can do that because I've taken the time and given the 'new' dog lead training on its own before introducing it to walking with the rest of the gang.  Yes, he is at the adolscent stage, but that might last the next couple of years :-( yikes!

Time, a certain degree of effort, consistency and you'll crack it ... but each dog requiring training, and this is what you're going to be doing, deserves the training on a one to one basis before doing it with other distractions, like your Golden!  Good luck! :-D

I'm so sorry I'm just about to head out so haven't time to post what I'd like but in the meantime one of my tips would be to consider this:
Turid Rugaas - How to loose leash walk DVD

Thats okay HuskyGal.
I already have Turids book on "Calming Signals". Aswell as Karen Pryors "Dont Shoot the Dog" and a line training book.
Look forward to any other tips you come up with!

Hi lyndob, I can't quite make out whether Burt has recently joined you, or whether you've had him from a pup

Trialist...........Burts mum was a rescue who came in pregnant. We got Burt when he was 3 months old. The "Foster" parents have Springers and Pointers and had done some good grounding training. He is a lovely natured and happy lad.

One of the reasons your Golden is so good is that you were able to train him one-to-one and give him masses of individual attention. Ideally you need to give Burt the same - much more difficult when you already have a dog who also needs attention! But it pays dividends hand over fist, and you all (humans as well as dogs) benefit enormously.

(This is why it's a bad idea to get two puppies at the same time - I know that doesn't apply in your case but maybe someone reading this who's thinking about it will take heed!)

> The "Foster" parents have Springers and Pointers

Would that be Alison and Ian by any chance?

Having had bitch that I had to retrain every time she was finished her season I do sympathise with you. She was great until her seasons when all training went out the window. As others have already stated, you need to take him out on his own and find out what it is that pushes his button, so to speak. Long lead, or leash training is a must until you can feel confident that he will come back to you. It is a pain having to go out again, especially in the bad weather, but it is only for a short while until he realises that he is allowed to run free only when he behaves. If you can find somewhere fully enclosed so that he can run free without the risk of him bogging off it will make things easier for you.

We stop when he pulls until he comes part way back to us and the lead is slack but he then rushes off to the end of the lead again

It's a case of persevering! If he comes part way back, then make him come all the way back, he's dictating it at the moment and it's self-rewarding 'cause he gets to rush to the end of the lad again, and I'm assuming moving on again for a while? Only when he's walking by your side, or behind you, wherever it is you want him to be, then take a move forward. Don't allow a long length of lead for him to rush to the end of, keep it shortened but not tight. If it's a case of just a single step and stop, that's what you've got to do. I know I did some very, very long timewise walks, but distance wise they were a couple of hundred yards, with one of my dogs!  In terms of coming back to you, if he wont then don't let him off lead until he does ... that's where your long line comes in. :-)

Yes, Pedlee it was Alison and Ian. Why?

>a 7 month PointerX Springer

I can't remember if I've asked you this before but do you know which of his 'types' is more dominant, pointer or springer?  Also is he crossed with a German or English Pointer?

It's worth talking to a gundog trainer that works with both breeds to get some extra help.  They operate quite differently in the field and as a result you'll find that you get, and hold, his attention in different ways depending on which trait is to the fore.  It may also be worth noting that a pointer will often range at quite a distance from it's handler.  Some dogs naturally hunt ahead so you are fighting with instinct too.

I'm sorry I don't have real answers for you but would recommend whistle training, most gundogs manage this very quickly and it's great at longer recalls.  When he's a bit older gundog training may well benefit him, and you, too.  You may be looking to shape his behaviours not change them :)

As I said...yes it is. We actually go back for training with them. They have been very good but I guess I want someone to wave a magic wand over him and make it all better.
It seems so logical when you talk to them but when you are on your own it all goes to pieces?!!?

I can't remember if I've asked you this before but do you know which of his 'types' is more dominant, pointer or springer?  Also is he crossed with a German or English Pointer?

He seems to be predominately Springer...............he looks like a tall one. I think it was German Short Haired Pointer mum. There may be a bit of Labrador too, maybe.
The trainers do gundog and they were the ones who Fostered him, owning both breeds themselves so they have experience of both.We do whistle training already too.  As I said I think I want someone to wave a wand over him and make it all better by itself especially when the frustration sets in. He really is a lovely pup apart from this!!
I know I will win in the end and I have to persevere. Problem too is finding enough time to exercise both dogs separately every day as it is not always possible.

>  It seems so logical when you talk to them but when you are on your own it all goes to pieces?!!?
>  I know I will win in the end and I have to persevere. Problem too is finding enough time to exercise both dogs separately every day as it is not always possible

Yes, a magic wand would be nice sometimes wouldn't it!  The problem with training youngsters, is that you often need some re-training too.  This is much harder when you are with an existing dog, as you revert to your existing (and well established) behaviours too.

If you really cannot manage separate walks then keep your other dog on lead whilst you work more closely with your youngest one.  It's not ideal but a least then you cannot be distracted.  With the lighter evenings you can also do lots of hide and seek games, and recall games, in and around the house and garden.  Don't just leave it for walks.  The more you can get your boy to focus on you at home, the easier (still no magic wand though) it wil become in the great outdoors.

Hi lyndob, try David Ryan's book http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/shop/books/stop-how-to-control-predatory-chasing-in-dogs/
I found it really helpful--I can't say that my problem dog (also a gundog who would be a great hunter if I could spend more time on him--and if I hunted :-) )is 100% reliable, but he is better than he used to be and I am more aware of the triggers and signs of 'off' days. I work with him on his own a couple of times a week, and I make sure that each of the three dogs gets 'own time' with me as well as communal walks. Not as easy as having one dog, maybe, but wouldn't change for the world.

> I DO love him to bits really but it does not stop me wanting to nearly kill him on our walks...............
>

Me too...my dallie is usually fantastic on the lead, fantastic at recall, fantastic when greeting other dogs... but he finds it so hard to do it all at the same time on the same day ;0) My GSP is such a gentle little chap so well behaved I like to take him by himself so he gets all my attention and so I can completely relax too...It is just like the family with two kids, one good, one a little naughty, every one knows the naughty ones name !

> Yes, Pedlee it was Alison and Ian. Why?

I was just curious really. I know Alison well and have trained with her for a couple of years. I remember the pups being born and seeing them as youngsters. Are you still training with her (sorry if I've missed it elsewhere in the post)? I think we all go through wanting a "magic wand" to get us through difficult stages, but it all requires patience and you will get there one day.

> I try VERY hard to keep calm when I walk him on my own but in the end my arm is aching from him pulling

Every step you take while the dog pulls, you are re-enforcing the pulling.

Does he walk well on a short lead? If not, I think you need to concentrate on lead-training before allowing him out on the long-line. If his normal lead manners are not really good, all the freedom & new distractions that come with being able to run about on the long-line will be far to great for him to listen to you on the long-line.

A good point from Trialist - 'reel up' the slack of the long-line, but don't keep it tight, it takes away the 'lunging' room and it's easier to gain control if they do pull.

A great thing I found for Buster to get keep his attention on me at times he's got distracted (and food wouldn't work as a lure) is to jog along next to him, giving lots of praise and noises, it seemed to help make me more exciting - like a play-mate rather than that boring nag who keeps trying to spoil the fun! A big part of the teenage stage is about fun & action, if you can be more fun/interesting than the distractions, you've cracked it :) Also remeber they still need to learn self control.

Agree with the others re walking the dogs seperate. I would never have managed to walk Buster during his teenage stage if I took my other dog out at the same time, I needed all me concentration for Buster.

When you've decided what method(s) you will be using - stick to them, there wil lbe plenty of times you think it's not wrorking, but keep on trying and always keep calm & happy, (a dog, especially a teenage one will not be intersted in listening/coming back to a grumpy, boring person especially if they've lost thier temper!), you'll get there - eventually :) It really is worth the effort in the end :)

Also, something very easy to forget when you're your working towards a set training goal - praise/reward the behaviour you want .

When Buster was 7 months old I dreaded taking him out for a walk, it was such hard work, I needed 3 leads (chest harness, halit & one on his normal collar), to keep him from pulling me over at times, it felt like I would never get through to him, but I did :)
He is FANTASTIC on the lead/long-line now, (he does get excited when meeting dog, but I've no fear of him pullin gme over), I am so glad I put so much effort in and he makes me proud, especially when I hear people comment about how well-behaved he is - they wouldn't have said that when he was 7 months old

There is hope, don't give up, you'll turn your 'teenager' into a very well behaved adult dog, it's just going to take time & practice :)

Sorry for the long post, it's just I know how completely disheartening the kevin stage can make you feel and a bit of morel support can really help :)

My boy will be 2 years old at the weekend and from 10 months till about a month ago I could have quite easily strangled him on several occasions!! :-(
We have had to over-come several minor problems with him but have to say it has been worth all the hard work.
Like with kids the terrible 2's if handled correctly should eventually pass and you will wonder why you made all the fuss. (I did)
If I were you, I would walk them seperatly, keep the young boy on a long line and keep practising recal at home and hopefully you will eventually find that trigger that he will willingly come back for.
good luck
Paula

I can understand your frustration with regards the pulling.
My dogs never had to be on leads when we lived at our old house, and so although my two labs had be trained from pups to walk well. We were much slacker when it came to the spaniel.
However circumstances have now changed and we are now living somewhere that requires lead walking to get to fields for exercise. I went through the aching arms, the standing still when he pulled, trying to keep his attention, dogmatic, halti. Nothing could stop him pulling, its only a ten minute walk to the field, but by the time we got there i was exhausted.
The solution to this i found, has been to couple him to my eldest lab who walks brilliantly and who is definatley top dog. When he is attatched to her, he walks fine and the ten minute walk on a lead he has to endure before he can be let off has become managable.
Im not suggesting this would work for you, but its the only thing after going down many avenues that seems to work for my boy, and if it means i get to walk him in a pleasant way then im happy.

Thanks for all responses.
I was working full on yesterday and have committments today so I will read and absorb and maybe ask questions tomorrow, thursday.
Thanks again everyone.

I was just curious really. I know Alison well and have trained with her for a couple of years. I remember the pups being born and seeing them as youngsters. Are you still training with her (sorry if I've missed it elsewhere in the post)? I think we all go through wanting a "magic wand" to get us through difficult stages, but it all requires patience and you will get there one day.

Pedlee, I can never remember which one was Burts mum......Orla?? Anyway, he was named Burt by Ian and the name stuck so you may remember my boy. He can be seen on the GSP Rescue site with updates after I brought him home.
We still go back to Alison for training whenever possible. I also take my Golden, Pepper to Gundog classes with her on mondays.

It was me in the same gundog training class with Esme, my Golden, a few weeks ago! What a small world! I'll probably see you again there!
Karen x

Oh yes I remember!!!
I will probably not make it til 17th the next one with Pepper.......see you then, Karen!