I recently had a small litter from my bitch and decided to offer puppies to those who made the effort to come and visit us prior to bitch whelping.  They know I am keeping one and will be making my choice around 6 weeks.

When offering pup I sent a copy of my contract for them to see.  I do not vaccinate my pups but ask that they be taken to their new vet within 7 days for examination and innoculation advice.  If vet feels pup has a problem (I get them checked by my vet before they leave me), they can then return it to me and on a written veterinary opinion receive a full refund.

One couple has asked that this period be extended to 6 months.  How long do others give owners if pup has a problem?  Would you consider this unreasonable?

Any advice appreciated.
 

I would not extend the guarantee for six months - I have always made it clear that if for whatever reason a new owner is unable to keep a puppy or dog - be it 6 months or 6 years later - I would want the pupy/dog returned to me.   Any financial arrangements would depend completely and utterly upon the circumstances of the return.

But I'm not Marks & Sparks - can't try before you buy!!

I think you will find that the law would be firmly on their side in any case.

If a puppy becomes unwell so soon after purchase, the Sale of Goods act would come into play and they could prove " unfit for purpose".

I would think 6 months is unreasonable as a guarantee for a living creature. There are so many environmental influences that would be totally out of your control.

Our Contract gives the purchaser 2 weeks in which to take the pup to a vet of their choice - any problems and the puppy is returned and a full refund given. 

However, if the pup developed a condition (hereditary) which resulted in the death of the puppy we would offer a refund, or a replacement in that short a period (6 months).

However if you put 6 months in your Contract the puppy could develop any problem, which could have an environmental cause, would you be able to take the puppy back and afford any vet fees etc., that might be incurred as you would not be insured for any problems that might arise, the new owner should be insured. 

Unless you run a business I think that 'caveat emptor' applies, i.e. 'buyer beware'.   If you are running your dogs as a business then you would I expect be liable in a court.   Look at Trevor Cooper (specialists in dog law).

Someone else may know more about dog law.

I agree that 7 days is ample. You are not running a big business here - as someone else said, you're not M&S LOL. Each circumstance is different though and whilst I wouldn't dream of placing a 6 month stipulation on any puppy contract, if someone came back to me with a pup I had sold beyond that 7 day window that had developed a serious illness, I would endeavour to come to some kind of mutual agreement, I can't possibly say what that would be as such a situation would be judged on its own merit.

I agree, a puppy should be fit for purpose (family companion) at point of sale, and all reasonable available steps taken for the breeder to breed a healthy pup, but living creatures can't be guaranteed as what was bought at 8 weeks isn't what they will have in 6 months.

I have in mine:

Every effort has been made to ensure that your puppy is healthy in body and mind, and is sold subject to it being understood that as a living creature it is impossible to predict how it will continue to develop, especially as regards behaviour over which you will have the principal influence.

Both your puppy's parents have been HIP SCORED with good results; hold a current EYE TEST certificate, and NORMAL KIDNEY function blood test.  At least one has also been DNA tested Normal/Clear for PRCD-PRA (unless genetically clear by parentage) and their pairing will not produce affected puppies.  They are typical examples of the breed, with excellent temperaments.
.....................

and:

It is essential that you take your puppy to a Veterinarian in the first few days for a health check, and to make arrangements for inoculations.  Should there be a health problem not attributable to its journey home (travel sickness) or change in food or water (tummy upset), and this renders him/her unfit for sale as a companion, a full refund of the purchase price will be made on production of a Veterinary report.

I also have in my contract a 7 day window for the new owners to have the pup checked by a vet (I recomend with in 48 hours for a first visit to the vet). Any illness that shows up after that could be down to all sorts of reasons and as some have said they would have to be assesed on individual circumstances. My contract states that I will take a pup back at any time of it's life so if a problem occured they always have me to turn to, though I would not nessesarily refund the whole asking price and would come to an agreement for rehoming. A pup is not like a washing machine with a guarantee....it is a living breathing thing and is capable of contracting a contagous desease, not your fault (But I would offer to help if I can for obvious reasons) Most illnesses will show up within 7 days from sale if pup is harbouring something when sold. I think your owners are being cheeky by asking. 6 months is way too long in my opinion. If you have bred a nice litter with health checked parents then no doubt you will have explained all that to them and also that you will be there for them if there is a problem and will offer help and support if needed. I can think of no reason to accept a pup back at 6 months as "faulty" Heredltory deseases/environmental problems need to be assesed on an individual basis and not as a blanket " take it back and give me my money back" basis.
Stick to your contract, and if they do not like it then maybe they are not the right owners for your pup. I tell people when they see my contract that if they are not prepared to sign it then there will be no pup for them. They know that well before the pup is due to leave me.
Aileen

Thank you all for your comments.  I feel 6 months is unreasonable as I have no control over what can happen within those months with them. I have not yet responded to them, I will later today.  I have to say this is making me feel a little different about this couple, rightly or wrongly.

i agree ,i give 7days and have my vet check pups before going ,i would always take a pup back ,but i wouldnt give them 6months ,new owners have to get insurents for their new pup anything could go wrong! pups are into everything ,that wouldnt be your fault!

yes it would me ,just see how they react about it and if you get that feeling then pick some eles thats right for your pup.

I would just look at it from their point of view. 

They may have trawled the Net and seen mention of health guarantees, and the commercial kennels give such with seemingly generous timescales, but when push comes to shove they are meaningless, as they will blame the new owner for causing an issue, unsuitable feeding, exercise, etc, but it will look good on paper. 

Commercial breeders and Puppy farmers can always rely on the emotional bond, and can always 'replace' a puppy with another.

Just checked the commercial outlet that sells puppies of my breed and they state they give 6 months guarantee, but I see no details of what form that takes, and they also mention temp vaccinations and chipping.

Ditto Tooolz,  quite suprised how many breeders don't realise the extent of their responsibility.

I've known breeders offer a 12 month or more guarantee both for health and purpose i.e. a pup sold for work that doesn't turn out to be suitable. These aren't commercial breeders or puppy farmers, just dogmen/women who take a great deal of pride and have faith in their breeding program. They do honour the guarantees also.

I don't see how any pup at 8 weeks can be guaranteed for work, show, or breeding, only have potential.

A companion is another matter as whether they are suitable for anything else they should be fit for that purpose, and with good luck and judgement with the selection of breeding partners and correct rearing to point of sale, are likely to be healthy.

I cannot see how anyone can guarantee beyond that, unless they are selling an adult with a proven track record.

A proven stud could become sterile, a proven brood develop Pyometra, and a working dog sustain an injury and be unfit for work, ditto show.

Also an owners ability (re showing working) and husbandry/rearing can all
negatively effect the outcome.

I suppose it is rather different if a dog is sold at a premium due to the purpose it has been sold for over an above the price for purely a companion, but that would be most unwise when selling a puppy.

I don't see how any pup at 8 weeks can be guaranteed for work, show, or breeding, only have potential.

I never mentioned show or breeding, but I did say health and purpose. What I should have said instead of purpose is work. It's quite easy to guarantee working temperament and health. Even though you may not see how, breeders do.

Edited to say: I'm using the word guarantee to define a written guarantee (i.e. pup will be refunded or replaced), some pups inevitably don't work out and the breeder honours their written guarantee.

Is it possible this couple have had a lot of heartache previously.. and maybe trying to cover all eventualities...

Not saying its right or wrong to make/or not make such a guarantee, but I would ask them why they felt they needed this.. if the pup is purely for companionship,  not for show etc, where you could never guarantee function... then I dont think I would have a problem with the 6months.. have never done it.. Like most breeders, my contract is 7 days, but, as the breeder, we are responsible..

I would have a chat with them, and maybe even split the difference..

> It's quite easy to guarantee working temperament and health. Even though you may not see how, breeders do.
>

I don't see how, as dogs abilities vary, and so do the handlers.  Just as two champions will not produce all top drawer offspring for the show-ring, so two working dogs no matter how talented are going to produce all offspring that will work well. 

Sure if the parents work you have a better than average chance the offspring may inherit these traits, same as two good examples to breed standard or constructionally good animals are more likely to produce offspring like themselves, but there just aren't guarantees.

Even dogs bred specifically for a single purpose like guide dogs still have a failure rate, and that from preselected puppies.  Even some of these fail on health grounds.

Totally agree - and don't we know how much litter brothers and sisters vary in character?  Nothing is guaranteed, we just try and do what we feel is the right thing to do.

It's quite easy to guarantee working temperament and health.

How can you guarantee health? Even something like HD has environmental factors as well as genetic ones. The only things you could guarantee would be problems that can be DNA tested for where you can be certain that two parents that does not carry a gene cannot produce affected pups. Anything else is a guess.

ive been planning my first litter for some time and starting to worry about contracts, im struggling with the wording. would someone be kind and let me see thiers? (pm me)

Brainless i can remember yours along time ago but cannot find it?

As you all so rightly say you can not guarantee any dog will show, breed, work or guarantee health of a living animal, but I'm not talking guarantee in this sense. Just as you can not guarantee a tv or washing machine won't break down within the first 12 months of use once you take it home... you are given a written guarantee to protect the buyer in the event of THIS happening, offering repair or replacement. This is what I have seen some breeders doing, offering refund (of varying degrees) or replacement and dependant on the reasons, in the event of a replacement, the breeder doesn't ask for the original pup/dog to be returned so it isn't a 'pull at the heart strings deal'.

I'm not the one offering the guarantee, so can't really comment, but I do respect those breeders that do. A great display of faith in their line and responsibility for it.

I think 7 days is fine and would not consider 6 months.  I think my puppy contracts for the dogs we have most recently bought in are something like 10 or 14 days.  If I pick up a pup at 7 weeks I will give it a week before they go to the vet for a check up and start their injections but my most recent pup was given to me at 9 weeks so she had a couple days  before going for a check up....although I don't have a contract with her because she was given to me in partnership with her breeder.

I have been pondering this (can you tell I have nothing better to do lol)

While most of us do contract for the 'usual' 7 days.. most of us are more than happy to honour our responsibilities way past this.. I personally have offered a pup to a wonderful owner, at some point in the future when/if she is ready.. I sold a pup for showing, no guarantees that he would set the world on fire, but had wonderful potential.. pup was monorchid... so did not fit 'purpose'

Many breeders are more than happy to work with their owners, and never take the original pup back, that is just too callous for words.

However.. my ponderings are not along the lines of the 7day cut off, and thats it!   My thoughts are on this potential owner requiring a 6months cut off.. without knowing the full story behind her request.. I am wondering, is she is thinking that she could simply return pup if it did not 'fit purpose'... and in this case, she would not be a suitable owner for any of my pups.. that is even more callous.. that is calculated..

I may be well off the mark, but just something else to throw into the pot

fushang, there's this thread that was set up specifically for sales contracts, though doesn't seem to be being used now:

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/23215.html - that one's only to add wording and no discussion about contracts - fair enough :-)
then there's this one which basically seems to suggest what the one above does:
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/6710.html
and this one:
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/104909.html
and this one:
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/57593.html
and a whole load more.  You should find something helpful in these.

I only learned a couple of weeks ago, if you want to search for older threads (beyond 6 months) if you put your item into the Google Sitesearch box it brings up everything from donkeys years ago!  I thought Google Sitesearch meant it searched Google, but it's basically a Google search but just of Champdogs Forum.  Hope this helps :-D

(can you tell I have nothing better to do lol)

Now, where did I put your e-mail addy ..... hey, 2 yesterday!!!  Bizarre.

Hit the nail on the head Kay.  I 100% support honouring the Sale of Goods Act BUT I am always suspicious about people asking certain questions. Now whether others agree or not if people do not make me feel 100% in all areas I go with my gutts.

I turned a couple away recently who were buying a puppy, the mother and the 21 years old daughter clearly wanted a dog and the father didn't. It was so clear he didn't.  I didn't sell them a puppy. I told them to go think about it for a few days and then when the caleld back I didn't offend but politely made an excuse.  I personally have to warm to people 100%. 

I wished every little just brought the next show puppy without the surplus  :-)

The 6 month guarantee has apparently come about  from a recommendation from one of the vets at their surgery.

I have received a long email from them apologising if I have been offended etc and assuring me that pup will have the best of homes.  They are now asking other questions and hopefully they will be happy with my answers. 

I have to say I am a little upset with their request and may yet not let them have a puppy.

> I have to say I am a little upset with their request and may yet not let them have a puppy

I think if they were going by a recommendation from their vet that they ask, then I would not still be upset. For many people a vet is the ultimate authority on animals and they probably thought that whatever the vet said must be right. If these prospective owners were OK before and given that they have apologised for any offense caused then I would put it all to one side. The fact that they went to the vet and mentioned it at all shows they are keen to learn and make sure they are not making any mistakes before they get the puppy. We always say on here that we want prospective dog owners to be educated so we can't complain when they ask questions.  JMHO :-)

> I have to say I am a little upset with their request and may yet not let them have a puppy
>I think if they were going by a recommendation from their vet that they ask, then I would not still be upset. For many people a vet is the ultimate authority on animals and they probably thought that whatever the vet said must be right.

It's a good point.  There will be many vets that have been on the wrong end of sickly puppy farmed dogs and will offer advice to prospective owners to ensure that they do not fall into that trap.  Some puppy farmers and getting very savvy and may not be so easy to spot.

Hopefully puppy buyers are becoming more aware of the dangers and if they means they are a little over enthusiastic in their efforts to identify a good breeder then so much the better.  Don't penalise them for wanting to do the right thing but do explain the way in which you aim to support them long term.  This will show them more clearly than any contract that you are a good breeder to choose.

thankyou for the links and thanks to brainless and others for the pm's it has helped alot especially the endorsment part.