Hi,
I know it wouldn't be usual to clip a lab but I do agility with mine and as they are black they really feel the heat. They do have a fairly dense coat and I think if I could clip them they would be more comfortable. I was thinking that it really wouldn't be necessary to worry about a complete body clip and would just need to take off the main body and sides. Kind of like a blanket clip in horses. I also have a BC I would want to do the same with.
Anyway, We have hand held Lister sheep clippers, I have been trying to find what if any size cutter/comb attachment would work? We have a comb that is for clipping cattle and Goats. this is a 23 blade if that makes sense to anyone.
Any ideas?
thanks

The coat protects from the heat as much as from the cold, so if you clip it the dog will be even hotter!

You need to thin out the undercoat so that more air can reach the skin whilst still keeping the protective top coat intact, otherwise the dogs will suffer more.

Sorry but i wouldnt even go there with a short coat like labs , if you have to keep them cool use a reflective dog coat and keep them in the shade when not competing

You can get towelling coats for dogs - or just use towels - and soak them in cold water, and that helps cool the dog when put over the body before/ after exercise. Ditto, plant sprayers with cold water. The coat protects the dog from the heat - short haired dogs generally feel the heat more. Hope that's some help.

They do have a fairly dense coat and I think if I could clip them they would be more comfortable.
Definitely not!  You just need to groom out the undercoat with a very fine comb and then their natural weatherproof coat will protect them in all weathers, hot and cold! :(

Labs would be more uncomfortable if you clipped the coat.. Their coats are for insulation from both heat and cold... but grooming helps remove any dead hair and strips down the undercoat, which would be a much more comfortable option...

Labs regularly compete at top level in Field Trials and Working Tests (and agility) througout the Summer without suffering from heat..

When waiting or after competing, A wet towel for dog to lie on and cool down should be sufficient, placed behind a chair would give good shade too

field trials in summer???

Yes..  Mock Trials :-) Highly competative, last one I attended was August :-)  Two day open stakes, Mock stakes.. etc.. next one is June...

I was reading an article on salukis that said for active dogs black coats actually help radiate the heat generated by their muscles away from the body.

Aside from that their coats grow back so quickly you will be clipping them every few weeks, I would just remove as much undercoat as you can

surely a "mock" field trial is a working test? Afterall how can you have a field trial out of season......field trials by their very nature involve shooting of game, and no game birds are in season in the summer.

I've seen tests being done in summer where the dogs have to seek and retrieve hidden frozen-then-thawed game.

Mock trials also include shooting of rabbit... ;-)

many Ft Ch are entered at the mocks during the summer .. it is highly competative... some Mocks use dummies..

> surely a "mock" field trial is a working test?

A mock trial is a field trial (with or without seasonal game or dummies) with dogs competing against each other, only one  Trophy winner, 2nd 3rd etc... a working test is against a written standard, pass or fail

I think there's some  confusion about working tests.

A Working Test as I know it for Retrievers is out of the shooting season in the summer on dummies.
Scores out of 20 for each test (or out of 40 for a double pick up), scores added up from each test (4/5 tests usually depending on number of dogs, judges) to find places 1st - 4th with Certificates of Merit.

There are Cold Game tests too.

The judge sets the test depending on the ground and class (puppy/novice/open.)

Never heard of the written standard, what's that for?

> Never heard of the written standard, what's that for?

SGWC, which is what I thought Sam was thinking of

ahh yes, the SGWC is pass or fail you are correct.

However, the mock trial you describe is surely a working test? Is it done on a knock out system or can you keep going all day having a go at each test? Is it held under KC rules and regs or is is a fun day?

To the original poster, no need to clip, just keep your dog wet if you can or if you think your lab has a heavy coat use a furminator to strip some of the undercoat out (if you can!)

> However, the mock trial you describe is surely a working test? Is it done on a knock out system or can you keep going all day having a go at each test? Is it held under KC rules and regs or is is a fun day?
>
>

It is held under KC rules and regs,  and is as highly competative as Field Trials..  Trophy and status are fought for :-) .. But, it is a way to bring Novices handlers into the 'throng' :-) 

The rules are the same as Field Trial, it certainly is not a 'fun' day as in a companion/fun dog show.. in fact many take it very seriously, dare I say, some take it just a bit too seriously lol...those who are Trialing and are just on the cusp of winning at CH level, use the Mocks for bringing the dog on, and training etc.. 

Scurrys are also held,  (pay your £1  per entry), the competative streak is astounding lol... but scurrys are purely for fun, and usually for charity :-)

As everyone else has said I would not clip a labs coat.  I have Rottweilers who have a thick black coat and they take part in Agility throughout the summer and also take part in Working Trials.

I've never had a problem with our dogs, just follow all the sensible precautions of keeping them cool if they are out in hot weather.

Yes, I agree - don't clip either the Lab or the BC. Use an undercoat rake and comb to get the undercoat out, and use water / cool coats etc, keep them in the shade while they aren't running, and make sure they always have access to water, they should be fine. Nothing wrong with a dog panting to lose heat (within reason!), as long as he has water to stop dehydration.

ive never been to any test where there is no winner and just pass/ fail....and Ive been to many as both a competetor and for my job!!! Im sorry I have no idea what a sgwc??? is so clearly wasnt talking about it as i dont know what it is! I think the other poster is getting confused with scurries (ie have a go at what you want) as they are not held under rules and anyone can "compete".

> a sgwc???

'Show Gundog Working Certificate' I belive what you need to make a Show Champion a full champion gundog.

Thanks everybody for your comments. It's interesting what you say, but I'm a curious to know if there is any actual 'scientific' evidence? I'm working on the basic logic that air passing over something that is warmer than the air carries away heat. Therefore logically  having a less hair would make it easier for the heat to escape the body. ( I am talking clip not shave bald btw:) ) I have used wet towelling coats in the past but lately have been told by lots of people that that is now bad for the dogs for some reason? I also spray them with water as we're walking about but it is difficult to get water to soak through a retrievers coat as they are naturally 'water repellent'! My understanding is that water cools by the process of evaporation, one of the things I really don't understand is people who put a wet towel on their dogs and then add a reflective coat on the top so it doesn't dry out.....sounds like Boil in the bag pooch to me........

re the discussion on Gun dogs working at field trials without problems, I have done a little gun dog training in the past but never been to a trial. Is the need for speed as acute as with Agility? I find not that my dogs are likely to collapse or anything ( I am careful with them) but that they definitely lose 'umph' and speed in the heat. As the top 10 places in agility are often only separated by 6seconds or so and won by hundredths of a second this can make a big difference.

thanks for all your input, I'm not looking to start an argument, just interested in the science/logic behind this. :) 

just another thought, anyone out there with the really heavy coated dogs (husky types) have any opinions? I think there is someone on hear that I've seen with Elkhounds?
I know of someone who runs sled dog huskies (sure that's not the right term but the best I can come up with!) in Australia and I do wonder how they cope.

> I am talking clip not shave bald btw

Clipping will just shorten all the hair, top coat and under coat. It will be just as thick no more air will get to the skin than if it was left the natural length - less, in fact, because there will be less ability for the top hairs to lift to create the cooling gap.

So thin out the undercoat but leave the protective top coat intact.

No Sam, I was not getting confused with Scurries, they were added in as another 'sport' held during the Summer where we do not need to clip dogs coats.. .. I did say they were for fun, and usually for charity..or did you not read that part?...  try not to be so condescending. I assumed you would know what SGWC was, since you seemed to know so much.. I was obviously wrong..

Now.. can we get back to the question the OP originally asked..

Thats correct Brainless... Gundogs cannot become full Champions without passing the SGWC

http://www.labclubofscotland.co.uk/page.php?page_ID=129

Not sure of dates, I have not checked yet.. but Lab Club of Scotland are holding a Mock Trial, possibly around the same time as last year (August) , you should come along spectators are welcome .. ;-)

I have a heavily coated Leo, he copes fine in the heat, although naturally I wouldn't force him to stay in direct sunlight, but no owner should. Providing he has access to shade and water he is fine, although still panting. I take a small solid cake tin on really hot days (height of summer) and fill it with cool water for his feet.

> I think there is someone on hear that I've seen with Elkhounds?
>

I am one of the Elkhound owners,a nd would never ever shave or clip one, when bitches have a litter they loose most of their coat, down to virtually nothing about 10 weeks after whelping,a nd than if it is warm they get very hot, unlike their full coated sisters who may feel warm on top, but dig your fingers into the jacket and you will find cool hair.

They cope fine in hot climates as they are sensible enough not to whizz around when it is hot, waiting until it is cool.

My first puppy arrived during a heatwave, she would eat her breakfast at 7 - 8am, and would not eat anything again until about 6pm (worried me sick), then had her third meal at about 10pm, she was 11 weeks when I got her.

I used to have a Black AfghanX with the full Afghan coat :-D   He never seemed to suffer with the heat in summer, but that's because I used to take out his undercoat with a comb wound with an elastic band (interwind the band at the base of the teeth)  It worked a treat while leaving his topcoat, just lift the coat and comb from the skin outwards in the direction that the coat lies ;)  or you can buy shedding combs with two sizes of teeth http://www.groomers-online.com/product.php/1310/moulting-comb

Another way of helping to remove the undercoat is to use a rubber brush on a damp coat, this can help remove quite a bit of undercoat

Hope this helps :)

agilabs the following is an article that HG posted a few years back and I saved it to my favourites and it should hopefully explain why you shouldn't clip a long coated dog

http://www.samoyed.org/heat.html

> xmlns="l">try not to be so condescending

ditto!

I'm still a bit puzzled by this despite explaination sounding sensible as i sissored my grans long haired chihuahua down to very very short (just left tail and ears on )one hot summer and her whole temperament changed. from being a rather miserable snappy little hot dog she really brightened up and looked much happier with life.

So what we're talking about here is a gundog who is not able to do the job he is bred for because he has the correct Lab coat.

A dog bred with the correct double coat is surely the product of generations of breeding for its function - if not - a sad state of affairs.

I still think a mock trial is a working test with a different name ---  *runs*

Indeed they were bred with a coat to do the job, but the job was in the colder months, hence the need for such a coat, however I guess todays labs are expected to be a jack of all trades doing modern things like agility in the summer. (Nothing wrong with that.)

not getting into the whole Trial/test debate, another thread, another day...

back to the coat..

Does the Lab actually have the correct coat.. So many labs today do not have the correct coat, some have poor undercoat, longer top coat, some even have soft coats.. top coats are meant to be harsh, and quite rough to the touch, undercoat should be so thick, that water will not penetrate..

I have 16 Labs.. only 8 of those are my 'showteam' with correct coats.. the rest are either 'also rans' or didnt quite get off the starting blocks ;-)

One girl I have, who has superb conformation, looks to have a good coat, in fact does not, she has longer softer topcoat, and very little undercoat.. she is the one who suffers more from the heat that one of my boys, who after swimming for a half hour, swipe with chamois and he is dry.. the water does not penetrate his undercoat, and I could not tell you what colour of skin he has, his coat is so dense (sadly matches his brain) :-) He seems to be completely unaffected by the heat, his coat works as a good insulator

What I am trying to say, is that if your Lab does not have a good coat, like my girl, and suffers from the heat, then removing some of the coat by clipping, could actually make things worse..

I have two black labs, who have quite short coats. A good brush twice a week and a good going over with a furminator once a month is all they need to keep the coat in good condition. I really cannot see you how clipping the dog would help, surely it is up to you as a responsible owner to ensure your dog does not over heat by providing it with plenty of water and shade when necessary.
My dogs have not competed in FT or Agility for some time, but overheating was never a concern of ours when they did. 

With regard to clipping your BC, that is completley up to you my sister has one who she clips regulary and although it doesnt seem to have done much damage to the coat, she now does not really resemble a border collie.
Clipping is something that can do more damage than good to a dogs coat, my springer's coat has a life of its own since he was neutered and the only way for me to really keep on top of it is to have him clipped once every six months and stripped out in between. He will be going to my groomers next month where she will clip his body reasonably short, leaving moderate feathering on his skirt, legs and back end. I like his ears to be kept quite full. At the moment the left side of his body looks lovely and straight and the right side resembles a cotton wool ball.
Clipping is a personal choice, but i dont think anyone would say clipping a lab was a good idea.

Think the scientific reason behind the fact that coated dogs have no real problem with the heat is that the air trapped within the undercoat acts as insulation against the sun and at the same time aids radiation of the heat built up in the dog's body by exercise.

I too have Elkhounds and would never dream of clipping, they may feel hot but the skin remains cool.

Fit dogs cope well with the heat elderly or infirm may benefit from clipping but I have never heard it advocated except for reasons of hygiene never to cool the dog.

Hi

I too compete in agility with a black lab cross.  Although he is a cross he has a typical lab coat.  Thick undercoat with a strong top coat.  I do appreciate what you are saying re your dog's performance suffering when he is a bit hot as I too notice a huge difference in mine when the weather is warmer.  I have a gel filled coat that I soak at shows and he always wears this on the way to the rings and after competing.  Swamp Coolers are great as well as they also cool underneath.  If it is really hot I usually take an umbrella to the ring so that I can keep him in the shade.  It can be difficult at some shows because if the queues are not managed well you can end up spending up to an hour away from your caravan.  As has already been said I would not recomend clipping your dogs.  Although my lab cross performance deteriotes if he is hot it is my very short coated patterdale terrier that I have to watch to ensure that she does not overheat as her coat offers her no protection from the heat whatsoever.

I do know of people who clip the underside from their collies not sure if this is to keep them cool or simply to make grooming easier and reduce the risk of tangles.

h

hi
i know no one has commented on this for a few days but thought i would give the whole working trial debate my input. i would understand the word 'mock' to mean 'practice'? so would the mock trials in the summer not be a way to keep the dogs (and handlers) active in the sport during the summer or am i totally wrong?

thanks all for your comments re clipping,
just wondering, what would you recommend to help thin the undercoat? Is it just a case of dragging out any already loose hair? there are so many brushes and grooming tools around that I'm not sure what would be appropriate. (for labs and BC  both ideally but I appreciate he has a very different coat.)

Also, has anyone used the Ruffwear Swamp cooler?
thanks

I don't have a Lab, but have used it on a Lab - and found a furminator worked very well. :-D Don't know about collies.

>what would you recommend to help thin the undercoat?

We used to find an ordinary metal comb like this did a brilliant job at thinning the undercoat whilst preserving the top coat of our labrador and my mother's golden. Furminators are reputed to be good but I've never used one.