does anyone know if they kennelclub has allowed a dog to be shown after it's had an entropian operation?

I think they would give you that information if you phoned them..  unless someone else comes on that can answer the question.

I know of a dog that has had an entropion op and been banned from showing and breeding.

I don't think any dog can be banned from breeding except when it has been banned by the kennel club for viciousness,

certainly entropion is not one of those operations after which the kennel club will allow showing.

all I know is he has a piece of paper saying he is not to be bred from or to be shown at any KC show

As far as I am aware no, as it alters the natural conformation of the dog. But I have seen them give permission for things I wouldn't expect (I read the ops reported in the Kennel Gazette) - however I am reasonably sure entropion is one where they refuse permission.

> piece of paper saying he is not to be bred from

The breeder can endorse puppies they have bred so that any progeny of those pups are not eligible for KC reg. Is it that?

no the owner is the breeder so I doubt he would endorse his own dog...his vet reported the operation to the KC and the KC replied stating the dog was not eligable to be shown at any KC show or to be bred from.

Breeders do endorse their own pups I think, as they will endorse them all at registration before they know which they are keeping, and can then lift the endorsements themselves once they're ready to breed from the dog (assuming it meets their standards - otherwise they may pet home endorsed if they don't think it's good enough quality). I'm not a breeder, but I'm reasonably sure they blanket endorse the whole litter if they're planning endorsements. If that makes sense?

In this case it sounds like the KC have said they will not register progeny - there is no way they can stop a dog being bred from!

> Breeders do endorse their own pups I think, as they will endorse them all at registration before they know which they are keeping, and can then lift the endorsements themselves once they're ready to breed from the dog

This is what I do.  Endorse the whole litter, and write for restrictions to be lifted on one that I have kept, if I eventually consider them good enough for breeding. 

> his vet reported the operation to the KC

Is this normal practise?

Just curious myself, as I'm not sure that all vets would even think about it.

I am pretty sure that the kennel club will only not register progeny for some conditions that have a simple mode of inheritance and can be tested for by DNA, and that only after the DNA test has allowed the number of carriers to become insignificant enough to the gene pool.

As they don't limit dog being bred from with high hip scores etc, then I can't see how they could ban registration for conditions that have an unknown/complex mode of inheritance, of course a dog affected by entropion would not be a good/ethical breeding prospect, but that decision is left up to breeders.

Oh we do agree that vets can report any operations to the kennel club, but I know of few cases where this would happen, especially as most dogs are registered under pet names at the vets, so they have no way of knowing the dogs KC details.

i do the same as JeanSw, i endorse the whole litter, then lift the endorsements on the one i keep if meets standards.

Me too, often have to remember to send a letter to lift my own when I have a litter to register.

> I am pretty sure that the kennel club will only not register progeny for some conditions that have a simple mode of inheritance and can be tested for by DNA

I think that's the case for CLAD in Irish Setters & Irish R&W Setters, but just going from memory.

>     > his vet reported the operation to the KC

> Is this normal practise?

It's supposed to be. The KC want any operation that alters the natural conformation of the dog reported to them by the vet performing the procedure, and it's part of the agreement you sign when entering KC shows that vets can do that. In practice, looking at the reported ops list in  the Kennel Gazette, I don't think that many can get reported.......

> As they don't limit dog being bred from with high hip scores etc

At a guess they would if the dog had an operation to correct it, such as a hip replacement. They have certainly banned dogs that have had patellar luxation ops from being shown. It is if they have been operated on to alter it.

That has happened to my youngster, he was operated on for a LP after he was badly knocked by my other Flattie on the beach. I stupidly asked for permisssion and was refused and appeal was unsucessful even after letters from both my own Vet and specialist vet who operated.
The reason being he now had an unfair advantage in his movement over dogs that hadn't been operated on!! i could have left him lame and still showed him!
Vets couldn't believe decision as his 'natural conformation' had only been put back to where it was and not enhanced.
So much for honesty, that is probably how the other poster doesn't see many reported operations. Once bitten twice shy as they say.

> They have certainly banned dogs that have had patellar luxation ops from being shown.

Shown, but they haven't banned any dog from being bred from due to operations.

> Shown, but they haven't banned any dog from being bred from due to operations.

I only mentioned showing. :-) Sorry for any confusion.

I don't know whether or what they have or haven't banned progeny being registered from, apart from the CLAD positives (I suppose it is conceivable they have banned following operations) - and I would be interested to know actually, if someone did ask the KC and find out. It's not something I ever recollect seeing any information about at all.

> I stupidly asked for permisssion

You could get into a lot of bother with the KC regarding future showing etc if you didn't and showed him anyway, so it was the right move. :-) I was told by Jeff Sampson that patellar luxation is polygenic and multifactorial (so multiple genes + environment) - but it is one of the orthopaedic conditions being looked at by the FCRS (who like to be forward thinking regarding any potential problems in the breed) - I think there may be more info on their website.

There are specific ops the KC will allow showing after, and those that they won't - they have a panel headed by an experienced vet, if memory serves, from what I have found out. But I have seen them pass what I wouldn't expect - think I saw an OCD op allowed to show (may be wrong, going on memory purely).

It's rotten luck - but I bet you forget when you get licked enough. :-P

Thanks for your replies, they did get a little bit off track but it has helped. I feel that the kennel club are wrong in some respects, the most honest you are the worse off you will be.

>

Think that is the point it is dishonest to show a dog that has been changed or improved - there will be accidents and sometimes they will be caught out unfairly but there are things that are accidental like a broken tooth or a damaged toe (you will be allowed to show after the op) and others that could be accidental or could be genetic and on balance I thing people era on the side of caution.

Ops! will someone remind me how to quote

i THINK GENERALLY OPERATIONS THAT DON'T GIVE THE DOG AN ADVANTAGE ARE LIKELY TO BE PASSED, FOR EXAMPLE TWO OF MIEN HAVE HAD TO LOOSE A TOOTH, aND ONE LOSt THE END OF HER TAIL, THAT ACTUALLY PUT THEM AT A DISADVANTAGE. (sorry left caps lock on).

That seems the general rule Barbara, although sometimes the KC do do inexplicable things. Stands to reason if your dog looses a tooth, toe or ear that is of no advantage but if it is an operation to improve or repair fault in construction then it does give an advantage and will be penalised. So I think they will say no if it is possible the problem being repaired could have been caused by a fault in construction.

I have heard that operations to remove a retained canine tooth can be refused permission to show and this is a problem in some breeds so perhaps they have cause but in other breeds is it unusual and the removal is to allow the new tooth to grow straight, I do not know their view on that.