> But I can see how someone who has never had a puppy or dog before would find it difficult to understand just how serious a job they are taking on even with a 'normal' biddable pup.  Without experience it would be impossible to understand just how much relentless work you have to put into a bolshy dog, as they say ignorance is bliss!

Oh yes indeed... my point entirely. I would guess quite a few pups tat go on to give their owners grief, don't show it at an early age.... but if you did have one that looks to be a little tyrant in the bud... the last family it needs are novice dog owners :)

So my advice to Toffeecrisp would be - make up all sorts of horror stories if you need to, find a way of putting these people off the one they think they want, and if they still resist...well they know where they can go (in the nicest possible way)!

> This couple have never had a dog.
>

toffeecrisp
My situation, when homing a puppy that was going to be well travelled - the new owners had previously owned a dog of the same breed ( a terrier) and had more than satisfied me as to their suitability.  They already had experience.

So, your situation is a totally different kettle of fish.  You must do what is right for YOU.  As well as your pups.  :-)

> Including a neighbours!  Through the fence.  :-)

How did you do that Dill? Could do with some tips.... was wondering if I could clicker train the neighbours Yorkie through the fence?

Morning.
Tried several times yesterday to contact this couple and tell them that she isnt for them...no reply and no call back...doesnt that say it all. They have not asked for any photos of her to show other members of the family or given me an email address so I can send any...the other potential owners have asked for photos and have actually taken loads when they have come to see them and have asked me to email any that I take...which I have. I have a waiting list for the pup they wanted at first and then rejected..so I think I will go with the next family who have been back twice to see her and are desperate to have her, Mother, father and 13 yr old daughter. They have had dogs before...the mother actually cried when I said that she had at first been picked..but they have kept in touch by email and phone checking every other day. The other family have been 3 times to see their pup and are so excited about taking her home....they have been and bought loads of toys, a crate and have picked out the warmest place for the crate to go where she wont be disturbed....

Will keep trying today to reach this older couple...

ok..have finally got in touch with the husband.....he was so nasty on the phone!!!
I was trying to explain to him and I was very polite about it... all he said at the end of the conversation was right fine and he slammed the phone down on me.

That's sorted that one then! :-D

>Who else but you would have an objectionable dog next door, and sort it yourself?  :-)

LOL  Desperate times called for desperate measures ;)   I never did have any luck training the owner tho, he was born a thug and will die a thug :(

>How did you do that Dill? Could do with some tips.... was wondering if I could clicker train the neighbours Yorkie >through the fence?

I can't see why not :-D   the trick is to somehow gain the dog's attention (and silence) for long enough and then click/treat until the dog hears the click and looks for the treat.  In my case I roared at the dog (as the owner did) after trying calmer quieter methods.  Just the once, the dog was so surprised that he shut up, then I clicked and treated.    I did the click/treat several minutes at a time, several times a day for about a week - by then he knew the drill, then started doing it when he gave me a behaviour I wanted.  One behaviour at a time. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clicker-Training-Dogs-Karen-Pryor/dp/1860542824  this is a good place to start :-D


I was lucky in that the dog had been an extemely biddable pup and was really quick on the uptake and I had trained other difficult dogs.

Thanks Dill - trouble is the dog yaps at me, so if  it sees me there is continual noise -  and the owner's trick is just to pick the dog up and take it away.... then 5 mins later when she's let it back out same again. Sigh. Think owner's OK actually - but seems to be single mother with 2 under 5s, and the dog has no training at all - yaps when left in house too - and I've only ever seen it walked twice in 2 years. Will see if I can get a second's silence and try it. :-D Thanks.

>Tried several times yesterday to contact this couple and tell them that she isnt for them...no reply and no call >back...doesnt that say it all

What it says to me is that maybe they went away knowing that they wouldn't be able to with a pup in the house or the holiday was pre-booked ;)  They may have been stranded abroad by the ash-cloud along with thousand of others ;)  Personally I prefer to find out first ;)

Having said that, the only time I had a puppy buyer who wanted a pup and didn't keep in touch, my bad feeling was confirmed.  I eventually managed to speak to them about their intentions re 'the pup' to be greeted with Who? which Pup?  (I hadn't specified ;) )  I felt that was all I needed to know, if they weren't able to remember which pup? how many pups were they trying to buy?

> They have not asked for any photos of her

I never asked for any photos of mine - thought the breeder would be too busy and didn't occur to me - wish I had some baby pics actually - and it didn't occur to me when I visited - didn't make me any the less committed. In this case though, sounds as though your worries were justified in other ways. At least you've got it sorted now. :-)

That's what I had, but it was a Rottweiler Bullmastiff cross (very cross!) that lived in the yard and garden.    He would go mental at me and my small child, and my bitch, trying to get through the fence, it was murderous.  It was terrifying, the owner just thought it was funny :(  but I'd heard him roaring at the dog on the odd occasion it actually went in the house (FOR SHOW dog).

A yorkie should be easier ;)   make the treats really high value - sausage, chicken, ham cheese, etc and really tiny.  You want the dog to be wanting more.   If the person is at home rather than work, then you might want to talk to them and tell them what you're going to do ;)  Unless they are Evil, mad thugs who are unlikely to ever want their dog to have a normal life (manhood extension ;) )

Like your couple I am also retired and of a certain age where believe me you do not do long car journeys without plenty of toilet/exercise breaks, would the travel be any worse over the year than say your average show dog does, they are highly unlikely to be doing the trip in one go and probably B&B somewhere on route, raise your areas of concern with them they may well be able to put your mind at rest on this matter.
You then only have to decide if that everything else being right you are happy for your pup go to what from your post seems to be a good home.
Good luck with whatever decission you come to
Stan Berry

I fully agree with you jeangenie, I list my potential new owners in order of contact date, they are all given at least two opportunities to meet pups/dam and other canine family members, it is made clear beforehand these first visits are only to meet pups and asess litter as a whole to let them be sure this is the litter they want to obtain a pup from. They then visit in order as listed to choose the pup "they" wish to have, in the intervening period they are kept up to date regards the litters development etc. The only time I have chosen a pup for a couple was an American couple who could not manage the primary visits due to distance, they supplied me with very detailed info about themselves/lifestyle, etc. I kept them informed by regular E-Mails on individual pups development, characteristics, photos, etc. along with my recomendations as to which pup I felt was best suited to them, my choice (due to there feedback) matched the same pup they would have chosen when the did meet the litter.
Stan Berry

How did they contact you in the first place?  Not everyone has computers.

Hope all goes well with the pups

> Thanks Dill - trouble is the dog yaps at me, so if  it sees me there is continual noise -  and the owner's trick is just to pick the dog up and take it away.... then 5 mins later when she's let it back out same again. Sigh. Think owner's OK actually - but seems to be single mother with 2 under 5s, and the dog has no training at all - yaps when left in house too - and I've only ever seen it walked twice in 2 years. Will see if I can get a second's silence and try it. :-D Thanks.

This is taking the thread way off topic - could you perhaps continue your discussion with Dill by PM or maybe start a new thread on the Behaviour board?

Thanks :-)

Seems we are at cross purposes, as what you do sounds the same as me, but people have committed when pups were born, and given a small deposit to confirm their commitment, to having a puppy.

They know that they may have choice of all that sex, two of that sex, or no choice if they are last in line, and if they are not happy with that situation they are free to look elsewhere, but the only pups they are likely to be offered are the odd extra unspoken for pups that there may be in someones litter, so possibly no better off re choosing.

If they aren't happy with that then they don't book and can try to be higher on someone else's waiting list.

But very few potential owners will have a free choice, especially as often the breed and/or stud dog owner are first.

I can't see how any potential owner thus committed would decide they didn't like one of the puppies, having met the parents and other relatives, which is what they have really based their choice on in the first place.

The pups should largely be a blank slate other than expecting to be somewhere like their relatives in nature.

Again there is an advantage to most of the litter being hard to tell apart and looking different each time they are seen, so hard for anyone to develop a distinct preference based only on short meetings, this is where my assessment/description of their characters helps them with their choice.

Back in 1999 I had a couple, who had an idea they wanted the biggest and the lightest coloured puppy in the litter, they were high up on the picking order and there were 6 bitches to choose from, and I think they were about second or third to be choosing.

Given their circumstances there was a dark very laid back bitch that would suit them best, and when they met her grandmother who she was so like in looks and nature, they wanted one like her, and I showed them the one I thought was best for them, and it was the oen they were most drawn to.

Here is what they wrote on my guest book when I set up my website:

December 1st 2003
09:07:13 PM
I have one of Barbara's Elkies from litter 'E'(one of Jozi's sisters). Barbara helped us select the right pup for us and supported us through puppyhood and beyond - we're delighted with Aska! She's an absolute joy and perfect for us.

Barbara helped us select the right pup for us and supported us through puppyhood and beyond - we're delighted with Aska! She's an absolute joy and perfect for us

And that is exactly how a good breeder works :-)

Let's be honest if someone is after a potential show dog they will automatically ask us the breeder to help them source the potential in a litter, so it should be the same with the other pups too. A breeder also needs to and has to match character of dog to a new owners lifestyle and wants and needs for that dog.

If it is a breed that they have never owned before which is often the case with no experience of what to look for then the breeder needs to make that choice and the new owner needs to trust them.

For those who have had the breed before IMO once satisfied after vetting, new owners have the oppertunity to choose a pup by all means if it is a pup in the middle of the row section (for a better phrase) the good news is there are often a large number of pups falling into the middle section, there are usually only one or two with a more alpha type bossy character and the same goes for a more placid type pup so matching the middle section can often IMO be left to the pups owners to chose without much going wrong, but we need to step in when a pup shows a stronger or weaker character for the right match.

Toffeecrisp, looks as though you have your answer now then, if the other older couple got very upset with you. If you are satisfied with the other couple with the 13 year old and feel that they can cope with little Miss Spitefire there :-) then sounds good, if the lady cried she must really want her just make sure you get the message across that you are always available to help with training or any worries they have. :-)

>people have committed when pups were born, and given a small deposit to confirm their commitment, to having a puppy.

Your previous posts suggest that once you've accepted people onto your waiting list you choose them a puppy and if they're not happy with your choice they're timewasters. Surely if they're good enough for one of your puppies in the first place they're good enough to have some say in which one they have? It seems odd not to trust them like that.

> Your previous posts suggest that once you've accepted people onto your waiting list you choose them a puppy and if they're not happy with your choice they're timewasters. Surely if they're good enough for one of your

When the litter is born I contact the people I have in principle accepted to have a puppy and they are told if there is a pup for them and where they are in line for choosing.

Obviously if they are unhappy to basically be last, second last etc in line to have a puppy of that sex (though the possibility always existed even if they were first in line), they can try elsewhere, but they are likely to be faced with waiting for a litter to be born with another breeder who already has a waiting list.  If they don't want to commit to have a puppy then they don't, but they have to make up their minds soon after they are born, so that people lower down the list can be given the option.

But they can only have much of a say if they are lucky enough to be high up on the waiting list, at least one of each sex will not get a choice, other than a puppy from that litter.  If another person has earlier claim then they obviously can't choose.

The average litter size in my breed is 6 pups so most people will only have choice of maybe two pups or be alloted the only available pup if I am keeping one of that sex, or just maybe if they are first for that sex get to choose from three. 

The most of one sex I have ever had was 6 in a litter 9.

Morning,
I contacted the other family last night...had a very long chat on the phone and despite me telling the main carer..the mum....what the pup was doing etc, they all decided they still wanted her.

Had a phone call this morning ... apologies for it being so early, but I really want this pup and to make sure can I come and place the deposit on her...I will be there in half an hour...
she has been, saw the pup, paid her deposit and has left a very happy lady to go shopping for puppy stuff!!
I know this family is the right one for this pup.
I do feel guilty about having to tell the older couple that they couldnt have her, but after the way he spoke and slammed the phone down I knew I was right.

Many Thanks to everyone for the help and advice you have given:)

thats great news toffeecrisp, now you can enjoy the pups without worry knowing she will have a great home to go to :)

if no computer then contact is either by phone or mail, at times a combination of all three
Stan Berry

HI Brainless (god I hate calling you by that name, sounds/feels so derogatory to use)
I suppose we all strive to achieve the same results in slightly different ways, each with their own preffered/ tried method,
as long as the end result is each pup going to the proper home and both breeder and new owner are happy with end result
then how its done is mainly academic.
Allthough in my case I am letting new owner make final choice, if I believed this choice would not be in either dogs or owners interest I would still have the option to (politely) decline the sale giving my reasons for doing so. It is for us to guide new owners in what may be there first experience of obtaining a pup.
Stan Berry

Apologies...I meant to add that when they first contacted me it was by phone, although they did say that they had found my name on the KC website..he refused to give his email address so I could send a picture for them to look at.

Sounds like a happy ending then! I had a lovely sounding couple who turned quite nasty when I eventually turned them down - I can imagine how disappointing it must be, but it's so rude! I was lucky with all of mine really, specially Henry - the breeder said he would be the best one if I wanted to show occasionally (this was before I was hooked!) and he was also the one that like someone upthread said, kept coming and getting on my lap and going to sleep, even if I tried to look at the other 2 blenheim boys he would be straight back on my lap. Nothing's changed! With Ellie there were 2 of us that wanted her, and I was desperately trying to phone and email just the right amount - not enough contact and they might have though I didn't want her enough, too much contact and begging and they might have thought I was a complete obsessive loony (which is true, but....) :-D

> This is taking the thread way off topic - could you perhaps continue your discussion with Dill by PM or maybe start a new thread on the Behaviour board?

It was just a quickie, wasn't actually planning on discussing it any further. Sorry. :-)

> But they can only have much of a say if they are lucky enough to be high up on the waiting list, at least one of each sex will not get a choice, other than a puppy from that litter.  If another person has earlier claim then they obviously can't choose.
>
> The average litter size in my breed is 6 pups so most people will only have choice of maybe two pups or be alloted the only available pup if I am keeping one of that sex, or just maybe if they are first for that sex get to choose from three. 
>
>

Yes, it happens!  I have had a lovely family waiting for a boy, and their excitement has been infectious.

My girl had two bitch puppies!  Although I offered one (after I had chosen mine), they had a deep family discussion, and regretfully said they really wanted a boy.  So I have put them in touch with somebody that has all boys.  We really need to use our crystal balls more!  :-)

Yep at 3 weeks after mating it would be nice to know how many, and what sex each is ;)