> I would rarely say the dog is at fault

I would say that domestic dogs have been bred by humans, and dogs are animals, so the dog is never at fault. It is an animal that lives by canine rules, not human. That said, it's not always somebody's fault - sometimes things happen and nobody is to blame.

We've had an American Bulldog, a  young male, in our classes in Dorset. He was a lovely dog actually, but owned by sensible owners who wanted him well trained and socialised! He was never any trouble except for the fact that he was such a big strong lad - he wore a headcollar which helped. He showed no aggression to any dog there and was very friendly. He did apparently fight with his father (who lived next door and they met occasionally) which did concern me just a tad inn the sense that you don't want such a large dog to start to realise that fighting another dog is even an option, but I think that was probably the only thing that concerned me, and that would have been the same with any dog.

I repeat though that this boy had good, responsible owners who had been turned down for many classes locally, and were relieved to find ours.
I'd not be keen on meeting one that was not well socialised, due to size and power.

Lindsay
x

I have met a mixture, two at training classes, one of which is a real nighmare, and to be honest we do worry about his owners ability to cope long term, he is just so extremely negatively reactive both to people and dogs, and similar things have been reported by friends who run training classes in other parts of the city, eith other examples.

This does seem to be the latest Pitt substitute in this city, with just a few owners who bought one because a neighbour had a litter and want to do their best with training, but not really knowing what they had other than a dog with head, four legs and a tail.

> This does seem to be the latest Pitt substitute in this city

Ditto here (and they are bigger dogs than Pits) - and the ones I have met locally have NOT been friendly. :-( They have also been being bred in large numbers. :-(

I have met some friendly ones (not round here) - but I have to say that personally they are not a breed I like, and are one of the few breeds I avoid when out walking my dog.

There are also ALOT of them advertised online :-(

They have quite large litters to from what I've noticed. I dnt think they will be recognised over here any time soon as their is such variation in type. Johnsons and Hines one being more athletic and the other more bully, heavier build and typical bulldog head. With high prey drive, tenacity to "work" and such power they don't suit your average household. If they were human they would need to weight train everynight. Well suited to pulling. Similar kind of size to ddbs but with the brain of a much more gamier breed. No where near as docile and lazy, or gentle natured.

What are they a mix of?
I saw one on a programme Victoria Stillwell did and he was aggressive but he had a medical reason for this.

> Well suited to pulling. Similar kind of size to ddbs but with the brain of a much more gamier breed. No where near as docile and lazy, or gentle natured.

The dog that killed the little girl was called Game.
For all the breed is cracked up to be "good with children & families" it would appear many of the ones in the UK aren't.... and they seem to be in the hands of people who would (perhaps unwittingly) bring out the worst side. While so many people champion Pits and say they are, and can be, very lovely dogs , - have we not made a rod for our own backs with banned breeds, meaning other breeds with similar propensities in the wrong hands, perhaps from dubious lines but perfectly legal, might turn out to be the nightmare we thought the Pit would be?

I have met very few AmB's admittedly, but my view of them is not positive after my 5mth puppy was attacked by one in the park a few years ago.... one moment it was being held by the collar by its young owner the width a football pitch away -  then when I stopped to pick up a poo, it was suddenly on my dog just yards from me, and the owner claimed my puppy had started it. When I took his licence plate number to report him to the dog warden/police, he stopped the car, reversed it and came back to have a go at me - NOT a very nice or responsible owner IMHO and he admitted he hadn't even got a lead for it. Never saw him before that incident and thankfully never again. But sadly they do appeal to that 'sort' of owner.

AmB's are one breed that I refuse to have in the salon as I have had a couple of bad experiences including a dog and bitch that belonged to the same owner(they were bred from several times).The bitch was nervous but do-able whereas the dog we couldn't get anywhere near as he was so agressive.

> I saw one on a programme Victoria Stillwell did and he was aggressive but he had a medical reason for this.

I saw that and he was obviously fear aggressive - the bit that had me in tears was where they must have had cameraman, camera, and about 4 or 5 other strangers outside his kennel trying to get him out if I remember correctly - and he wasn't trying to attack, he was trying to get as far away from them as possible and escape through the back wall. :-( Not that it being fear aggression makes it any safer - and despite the medical treatment and behavioural work if I recollect in that instance the family decided to have him euthanased for safety's sake.

My father in law has one - the bully type, think they are called classic - he shows it.    His is rather poorly socialised and is dog aggressive but not  in a crazy trying to get at everything kind of way and it does live happily with another much smaller dog it grew up with.   It seems fine with people but I always make sure my kids do not play with it when they are up there just in case - it's such a powerful thing and I think if it did bite it would do so without threat first - this is how it is with dogs anyway.

someone near us had 2 litters of 19 am Bulldog pups in a tiny yard about 15 x 15 ft, they sold some but still had I think 13 left by 6 months old & they where ripping each other to bits, some of them had ears missing from fighting. He offered them to anyone who walked past. even said if we where interested he'd pull one over the wall for us & we could take it away.
I suggested putting them to sleep might be the best option as giving them away to people with no knowledge could be a disaster . but no he couldnt do that. he eventually got rid of them but it took a very long time & i dread to think where they ended up

> I saw that and he was obviously fear aggressive - the bit that had me in tears was where they must have had cameraman, camera, and about 4 or 5 other strangers outside his kennel trying to get him out if I remember correctly

I don't remember him being in a kennel at all; he was a family dog kept in a house. Bought to "look after" the wife while hubby was away at sea with the Navy. Dog was also later diagnosed with hyperthyroid, but I do think it was later PTS. I knew about it as it was not far away from me, and the behaviorist/trainer from my dog classes was involved... she & others were the stooges in the park at the start of the show.

Oddly enough the AB that attacked my puppy was same age but female at about the time the other one was younger... can't help but wonder if there was a connection.

I'm not replying to any post in particular.

I think the problem these days with breeds, is that people do not do their homework on the type of breed they are looking for, and tend to just impulse buy because its popular, take the staffy for example, there are more of these in rescue homes than any other breed, Why?  Because people buy them and know nothing of their traits.  I have bullmastiffs, i read into the breed, i visited breeders and talked to breeders at crufts, because i wanted to know what i was letting myself infor.  The three i have came from breeders with children, but i would not leave them unsupervised around children, because you never know. I think im a responsible dog owner, i dont let my dogs of the lead down the park, if people ask if they can stroke my dogs i always see how my dog reacts to the stranger before i say yes, and i always supervise the children down the park when they want to stroke them and tell them to be gentle, not to screem or shout and i tell them to stop stroking the dogs because they have had enough.  If more people read into the breed then i think there would be less attacks.  I know that all attacks can't be stopped.  The other thing i would like to question is in the news report the little girl let the dog out of the kennel, where was the parents when this was happening and where was the education to the child about how to react and approach dogs??

If there were no crappy breeders who wouldn't sell to this sort of person, we wouldn't have these problems either. I once had a phone call from an asain man who hadn't got a clue. He wanted a guard dog for his scrap yard a kids kept breaking in, I said no breeder in their right mind would sell a dog for this purpose. You need a security guard on patrol with a fully trained guard dog. He also wanted to be able to have it at home but for it to be well tempered around his kids but not come in the house or be stroked and fed chipatis. This was a serious phonecall and I did a heck of a lot of educating and just told him to get a security camera. If he did get a dog and treat it the way he was going to then I said it would attack his kids or someone else and he would have a huge liability bill or a death on his hands.

After reading this I have realised, there is a dog up the road, wasn't sure of what breed but now looking into it it appears it is an american bulldog. It only gets to run outside of the flats where there is a blind panic if another dog walks past on lead. Owned by a huge bloke who is quite intimidating. I must admit I was slightly on edge as I walked past with my two yesterday, crossed the road to make sure the owner saw me and he did grab his dog.

I really hope it isn't going to become the new status dog where I live. At the moment its staffs, the owners of these dogs are not what I would call responsible owners and often whip there dogs and kick them to get them going :(

I find it amazing so many are being bred when in reality  not that many have been imported.  I think many are just Pit Bulls that have sadly been tagged with this breeds name to try and legally sell and breed them!

> I don't remember him being in a kennel at all; he was a family dog kept in a house. Bought to "look after" the wife while hubby was away at sea with the Navy. Dog was also later diagnosed with hyperthyroid, but I do think it was later PTS. I knew about it as it was not far away from me, and the behaviorist/trainer from my dog classes was involved... she & others were the stooges in the park at the start of the show.
>

Yes this is the one that I saw, I didn't realise he had been pts he was very loving to his owners and the woman seem to dote on him but when he got going he looked very intimidating

> I don't remember him being in a kennel at all

On Dog Borstal they put all the dogs in kennels during the time they are there and take them out for training. I was talking about them trying to get him out of the kennel there. I wasn't referring to when he was at home.

> diagnosed with hyperthyroid

Hypothyroid, I think. :-)

> On Dog Borstal they put all the dogs in kennels during the time they are there and take them out for training. I was talking about them trying to get him out of the kennel there. I wasn't referring to when he was at home.<br />

I think we are at cross-purposes here: the American Bulldog to which myself and Yabbadoo were referring was on Victoria Stillwell, not DB. Hyperthyroid, i.e. overactive thyroid, can certainly make dogs more aggressive.

hypothyroid of course can make dogs more aggressive also.  One of the signs people should look for I believe.

> I think we are at cross-purposes here: the American Bulldog to which myself and Yabbadoo were referring was on Victoria Stillwell, not DB

Yes it was definately Victoria Stillwell I don't watch Dog Borstal

On sky3 in an hour if anyone cares

> I think we are at cross-purposes here: the American Bulldog to which myself and Yabbadoo were referring was on Victoria Stillwell, not DB.

Sorry, yep, have confused myself - mainly because I saw both programmes. There was an Am Bulldog on both. The one on DB had Lynne as trainer, the only one of the trainers on there I would consider letting near my dogs - and ended up pts - can't now remember re: health (except that it bit the DB vet, but thinking about it I'm not at all sure that they blood tested that one), as I think I was getting it mixed up with the VS one whoch was hypothyroid! Don't remember that one being pts though?

> Hyperthyroid, i.e. overactive thyroid, can certainly make dogs more aggressive

Dogs don't get overactive thyroids; cats do. The dog was definitely hypothyroid - and that can cause aggression in dogs - that's an underactive thyroid. Cats get hyperthyroid, dogs get hypothyroid, humans get both. :-)

I don't normally watch DB/ CM / VS as they all do my head in a bit - but I felt the need to have seen at least some so I can argue against certain training mehtods having watched them firsthand - mainly DB/CM ones.....

> Dogs don't get overactive thyroids; cats do

Dogs can suffer with an overactive thyroid but it's not very common.

Do you have an example?

> Do you have an example?

"Dog hyperthyroidism is an endocrine disease that causes overproduction of the hormone thyroxin. The presence of excessive amounts of this hormone then affects the animal's entire system, causing many problems. While this condition is quite rare in dogs and is far more prevalent in cats, it does occasionally affect canines" taken from here

> The one on DB had Lynne as trainer, the only one of the trainers on there I would consider letting near my dogs - and ended up pts

This is the one that i saw, a couple with young child/ren in the house and was soo out of control. I can't recall if it had anything medically wrong with it, but it was PTS and i have to admit i did cry along with the family. They knew the dog was a liability and a serious accident waiting to happen around kids.

Sad situation but we have the same sort of triggers as usual
1. Dog not socilised to kids.
2. Owner absent.
3. Dog with poor lifestyle (probably, as used as breeding machine in garden shed) that would have been unused to dealing with new situations.
4. Spring/summer weather with a dog with a short face that means keeping cool is harder.

Tragic yes, preventable yes, which is really the most tragic thing.

BLS doesn't work for the simple reason it glorifies a type of dog. If pits/mastiffs were considered the ideal choice for little old ladies the thugs would have labs and collies instead.
Changing/eliminating certain breed traits is fairly pointless. Simply because not everyone wants the same from their pet, many people compalin their lab bounces all over everyone, many people like the fact their shep isn't keen on anyone but them. Both dogs trained right will still be harmless.
Also it is easy to breed a bad trait in. IF You wanted to make labs dog aggressive it would take maybe two generations of linebreeding (only selecting for aggression) to achieve.

What is really important is owner education and social education, including at the expectant mother stage and in schools of fog behaviour, body language and breed traits. If people are sufficently educated they will (even subconcisly) avoid bad situations. This is the give a man a fish approach as opposed to the ban the bad dogs approaxch which just means others will become the bad dogs.

Adam  

> What is really important is owner education and social education, including at the expectant mother stage and in schools of fog behaviour, body language and breed traits. If people are sufficently educated they will (even subconcisly) avoid bad situations.

Totally agree with you.

Was going to say, knew there would be something in the literature - like this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339177/

Point I was making was that as rule of thumb dogs get hypo, cats get hyper, and in this case dog was hypo not hyper (which would be extremely rare). Just not managing to put across what I'm trying to say very well at the moment, sorry.