http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/04/19/pay-1-200-vet-bill-or-we-ll-put-dog-down-115875-22195777/

speechless....
they are damn disgrace,
allways been robbing #### ####s...
im sure its against law for any vet not to treat an animal in need,
pleased this has made the papers so ppl can see what they are really like,
shame on them for doing this to what is obviously a much loved familly pet,
it says guy was not working..even the pdsa wud of tret them better and for a simple donation ,

jayne
xx

Without being judgemental, I am amazed that people will mate a bitch without having the price of an emergency Ceasar in an account.  There again it's possible that he was recently unemployed and the money had other claims on it - mortgage, rent, utilities.   A lot can happen in 9 weeks.  Trying not to be cynical and only see the BYB in this ;)

Business is king these days, there's no room any more for compassion.  I can't understand why arrangements couldn't be made for payment in installments?

> Without being judgemental, I am amazed that people will mate a bitch without having the price of an emergency Ceasar in an account.

Sadly, this is all too common.  I have a hard to whelp breed.  When people approach me about using a stud dog, my first question is - have you got at least a grand put by for a section.  Many people are affronted by this.  They have this idea that it won't happen to their bitch!

Carfeul though I am about which bitches I choose to mate, it still happens to me sometimes, and I know what I'm doing.  I feel so, so sorry for bitches in the hands of people that haven't considered these things.

I do feel that it's terribly sad that the bitch was put down, but I would never get in this situation.  If you can't afford veterinary care, you shouldn't breed.  It's no good thinking about fees after the event.

it must have been a realy serious situation for the vet to put the dog down and the unborn pups, im sure it wasnt done lightly. it says the police were called who knows what went off. they shouldnt be breeding if they havent got the money.

Vets have to provide emergency care for animals that need treatment - but emergency care can include euthanasia.

From the sound of the article the vets were concerned the owners were not going to seek treatment elsewhere and that the bitch would suffer - and if the police had to be called it also sounds as though the owners were behaving in an extremely anti-social manner. And they did consent to euthanasia. Is it possible she had been mated for the owners to make some money out of pups since they were short financially, not expecting things to go wrong?

It may not be a popular view but that is what it is sounding like - obviously can't know either side without having been there.

It's the poor bitch and pups I feel sorry for. At the end of the day, pet owners are liable for the costs of medical treatment - it is part of looking after a pet.

relative talked to me a bit about this yesterday-he'd heard bit on radio about it - and said the report he heard said the bitch had been in that state for over 2 days and was in such a bad way the vets doubted she'd survive a cesar, internal organs wrecked, was in terrible terrible pain,pups long dead but could have gone on for another day or two before dieing.  vets sometimes will do installments for unexpected emergency care for regular clients- but these people weren't and a cesar is something that should be considered before breeding a bitch-its not an unheard of event.
i'm impressed with vet - he put the animals welfare first.  would have been far less hassal for him to send the dog away with people that angry.

Poor little Staffie.
Wiemed, what your relative said sounds a much more likely version of the story. There are always 5 sides to every story published in the papers.

> Trying not to be cynical and only see the BYB in this ;-)

I am struggling too.

>The couple, with daughters Chloe, 12, and Amy, nine, begged to have Coco back so they could seek cheaper treatment elsewhere but were told this would break welfare laws unless they knew where the dog was going.
>The couple, who were unable to find the money, finally agreed for Coco and the six unborn puppies to be put down. They paid a £90 fee. 

Seems to me like the couple wanted a free op. They had the option to arrange a cheaper place to treat the dog, the only thing they weren't allowed to do was take the dog away without the vets knowing where it was going.

I wonder if this will stop the couple from breeding (they have the dogs mum at home, so they've had a litter before) , if so poor little Coco hasn't loft her life in vein.

> I can't understand why arrangements couldn't be made for payment in installments?

I imagine thier attitide was the reason.

> Lisa, who admits losing her temper, said police were called to the surgery to calm the row.

Under the law, Euthanasia IS treating the dog... however, we dont know the full facts ... we do not know the condition of the dog,... They could not afford to breed.. end of.. If they dont have the c/s fee, then they would also not have the funds for aftercare,

We could also assume complications, we could assume all pups died before c/s or during or even afterwards.. so again, any funds expected from sale of pups, would not have materialised...

It is sad, but it is a fact of life, and in a way, it is about time someone stepped up to the mark, maybe this will make those people who assume breeding is a way of getting money, even if it is a one off litter, think again...

You have the funds BEFORE you breed

I dont think the PDSA would have treated the dog for a donation, they do not fund breeding...

I do feel for the family, but I feel more for the poor dog. The family did this to their dog, not the vets...

> I am amazed that people will mate a bitch without having the price of an emergency Ceasar in an account.

Have to agree.  As much as it pains me to say this, perhaps the little Stafford and pups are better off now.  :(  Who knows........

> I dont think the PDSA would have treated the dog for a donation, they do not fund breeding...

True, I'd forgotten that - if you are breeding purebred pups (sounds like these will have been Staffies) - PDSA will not fund it. Not sure what their policy is on the "designer crossbreeds", I think they may need to develop one if there isn't already!

And weimed, that version makes more sense to me.

Possibly the vets wouldn't agree to instalments because of the owners behaviour and the fact they were reasonably sure there was no likelihood of the bill being paid?

I agree with the others that you shouldn't breed without the funds already set up for emergencies.
However I know this vets very well as I live in the area , and although I don't know the full details of this case , Croft vets only care about the money they are taking in !!!
They charge two to three times the amount of my vets and to be honest the level of care is not up to my liking!
My vets Robson & Prescott have staff that care and I just know they would of helped this poor dog.
I know staffies are being overbred at the moment but at the end of the day the poor bitch deserved a chance .

>even the pdsa wud of tret them better and for a simple donation

Not if they weren't receiving particular benefits, or were outside the catchment area. There is far more background to this that what's in that brief article; vets will invariably come to a financial arrangement with reasonable people who have always been prompt payers in the past.

Sad to say but the pups and Coco are better off now. The couple were obviously just trying to make a quick buck. If they were regular clients to the vets and always paid their bills on time etc I can't imagine that the vets wouldn't have let them set up a payment plan.

It's horrific that they bred in the first place as mentioned above, without having some reliable funds in place. I ALWAYS have at least £1500 - £2000 to one side to cover emergencies when I have a litter coming due. Thankfully I've never had to use it but you never know...

There must have been more to this story, it just doesn't ring true for me.

All I can think is that this family made it perfectly clear they would not be paying for the operation, perhaps went in with the attitude that a vet should operate no matter what and pick up the tab and all they should pay is the initial £39. Perhaps the vet felt bullied by the family that he should offer full treatment for free leading to the police being called when he said he wouldn't. I mean everyone could do that, ask for free care after mating a bitch otherwise, so many bitches need c-sections.

Breeding problems as we know are never covered by insurances (unless breeders insurance is taken out) as it is something we have chosen to put our bitch through, it does not come under 'medical emergency' the same, but an inflicted condition by the owner, which is why it is not insured. I guess vets view it also in the same way.

Why did the family not call the RSPCA or the PDSA or beg and borrow the money from someone? At the very least offer part payment to show willing. IMO the vet had a duty of care to the bitch, if he was not guaranteed the bitch was going somewhere for treatment immediately then I guess he had to make sure she did not suffer, how could he allow a bitch to suffer horrendously like that the family could not do a c-section on the poor dog.

When first reading yes it does seem like an absolute disgrace that they would rather put a dog to sleep than give a free op, but the bitch was no longer suffering and the family may well have been nasty threatening bullies, who had no money to care for the bitch properly or the pups, the breeding was not carefully planned or money would have been put aside. Vets are private practices, not publically funded charities.

I feel very sorry for the bitch, very sorry! But they did this to her, they made her pregnant, they did not plan to protect her.

But, saying that even though I can fully understand why the vet made this decison, in all honesty I would have still saved the bitch if I were the vet, I couldn't kill an animal because the owners were complete p*ats. But I guess some vets become hardened to things like everyone does and look after their own business.

Very sad.

> However I know this vets very well as I live in the area , and although I don't know the full details of this case , Croft vets only care about the money they are taking in !!!

> I know staffies are being overbred at the moment but at the end of the day the poor bitch deserved a chance .

What was the vet supposed to do? Its not like this was a simple procedure that would take 5 minutes and vets, whether we like it or not, are not charities. The blame for this lies squarely at the door of the owner - they should not have bred this dog when they had no money for emergencies. One of them could easily have taken the time to contact other vets for costs thus giving this practice the chance to release the dog - I suspect that the poor dog would have been taken home and left to die in agony and presumably this is what the vet thought too. This poor dog deserved better owners IMHO.

The owners are the disgrace - not the vets!

Couldn't agree more, the vets only said they couldn't take the dog if they didn't know where it was going, it would have had to release the dog if the owners bothered to look elsewhere for somebody to do the operation cheaper, they obviously didn't look, or didn't have any money at all, so even "cheaper" would still not have been an option. They can't have had any relationship with their vets, as in my experience most will happily agree to installments or some other arrangement, particularly with longstanding customers in desperate situations.  To breed with no thought for what could go wrong is pure irresponsibilty.  It is these people, doing things for purely financial reasons, who give us all a bad name.  Poor dog.

> The owners are the disgrace - not the vets!

I agree - they are the ones that chose to have this bitch (in fact breed this bitch) and breed from her - yet the whole onus of blame seems to be on the vets?

There are a lot of charities that will contribute to vets bills - and if the owners had made the effort they could have tried to get money together that way - and if they had been prepared to say where they were going could have gone to a different vet practice and got help from charities and sorted a payment plan. They were also the ones that have signed the consent for euthanasia. A vet cannot "make" someone have their pet euthanased - though they can involve the RSPCA. And I cannot imagine the police having been called out to something minor!!

This reads as a "BYB think twice" post to me.... Poor Coco.

Rather than put the dog to sleep, why did the vet not arrange the owners to pay in installments?? The woman has said that she works and earns £800 a month so could probably afford a percentage of her earning each month until the bill is settled ?????

> This reads as a "BYB think twice" post to me.... Poor Coco. #

I completley agree, the last thing the country needs is another litter of Staffies bred by incompetent owners thinking they can make a few quid.

Maybe i am being cynical (maybe they were responsible and had carried out all relevant health tests etc before breeding thier bitch. . . .hmmm), but i very much doubt the vet would have put the dog to sleep without good reason.

Its tragic that an innocent dog has lost her life due to the irresponsibilties of her so called owners. If potential unscrupulous breeders take not then the story may have a slightly positive outcome.

> Rather than put the dog to sleep, why did the vet not arrange the owners to pay in installments?? The woman has said that she works and earns £800 a month so could probably afford a percentage of her earning each month until the bill is settled ?????

Fred's Mum the vets said "Croft Vets of Cramlington said offers were made to the family in an attempt to help but they were refused. A spokeswoman added: "We're trying to support a business with 40 employees. If people are reasonable, we'll try to come to arrangements. vet It is unreasonable for anyone to expect the directors will pay for someone's dog to be treated." - so they could have come to an arrangement, had the owners been reasonable, instead of wanting to take a bitch experiencing difficulties in labour around the various vets in the area looking for a cheaper price!

The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons said: "The owner should be able to take their animal away from a vet but there can be circumstances where this will cause a welfare problem or unnecessary suffering for the animal.

Of course I am sorry that the family are upset and are suffering now ...its a pity they did not think about the costs involved when they allowed their staffy bitch to become pregnant.   They're not suffering half as much as their poor dog did!

And did they not think to ask the owner of the stud dog if s/he could help contribute to the vet's fees?   Or do they not know whose dog fathered the litter in the first place?

Poor little bitch - she's in a better place now, and her poor puppies will not know what could have been a life from backyard breeder to petshop to pound :(

I just hope that some people will have read this article and realised just how much it can cost for a litter of puppies - too often here we are preaching to the converted!

> If you can't afford veterinary care, you shouldn't breed. It's no good thinking about fees after the event.

Start at the beginning.............if you can't afford vet care, you shouldn't own a dog!

> Start at the beginning.............if you can't afford vet care, you shouldn't own a dog!

Struggling to foot the bill of an unexpected event (accident or illness) is a lot different than not being able to afford emergency care due to breeding. Breeding is planned - entirely the owners doing. If a litter is unplanned it can be terminated for a lot less money than an emergency c-section.

PDSA will treat emergencies, they have a duty of care like any other vet. Vets are humans, i doubt very much that a vet would pts the dog if they were sure it would get treatment elsewhere. Ive heard reports that the dog was in sever pain and toxic shock and that the kindest thing to do was pts. The row errupted after the owners didnt agree with that decision..but obviously did in the end.
Sounds to me like they left the bitch WAY too long before seeking treatment for her...with owners like that she is probably in a better place right now.

> Sounds to me like they left the bitch WAY too long before seeking treatment for her...

That is exactly my thoughts too.  Can you imagine not getting veterinary treatment immediately for a bitch having problems whelping!

Poor bitch must have been so very poorly.

Is that the price of a caesarian these days !     I know vets aren't a charity but that sounds about 5 times what it would have cost me the last time I bred a litter - 15 years or so ago.   

> Is that the price of a caesarian these days !     I know vets aren't a charity but that sounds about 5 times what it would have cost me the last time I bred a litter - 15 years or so ago.

Depends on the Vet, price varies a lot, but this would seem to be top end around here for an out of hours C section.  The vet in question is one of the 2 most expensive in the area, have recently opened a state of the art hospital with pricing too match the facilities -.

> Is that the price of a caesarian these days ! 

I paid £1,086 over 3 years ago for an out of hours section.

And would do so again.

Max we've paid for a c-section out of hours on a bank holiday for a cocker spaniel was £754

To all who think £1200 is a bit hefty: there are caesars and caesars.
I suspect most of the posters on this board who have had bitches needing caesars have taken them to the vet in good time. Healthy bitch = cheaper caesar.
Bitch who has been trying to whelp for a long time, weak, septic shock, with a necrotic uterus full of dead pups needing drip+spay caesar (good luck anaethetising a bitch in this state)+intensive nursing care all night+IV antibiotics every few hours +/- fresh frozen plasma etc to try to deal with the sepsis + several days hospitalisation to get her in a fit state to go home = lots. £1200 would have been an absolute bargain in this scenario.

To all those who suggested instalments - many vets will offer this in many scenarios. However, I have NEVER seen an nonclient backyard breeder pay off their caesar except if made to pay at the time. These cases -along with parvo pups - are notorious for lots of work for nothing, or only one £20 instalment paid off the bill followed by the disappearance of the client. I've heard the phrase "I'll pay when the pups are sold" several times - they never do. If the pups are dead, you don't get paid either. Also, when the owners in this case became aggressive and threatening, I doubt whether I'd have spent much more time (unpaid, possibly out of hours) trying to help them while they screamed and swore at me. If the bitch was shocky and in immediate need of a drip and continuous pain relief, I may not have agreed to let them take her and run. And I probably wouldn't have devoted the rest of my evening and night to operating on and caring for a bitch in a critical condition for free, just to hand her back to the owner who had abused me or send her to a shelter (Staff or not) to join a host of other unwanted dogs.

Also - we're not completely heartless. I'm writing this from the vet hospital where I work, though it's after hours. A nice public spirited lady brought in a dog that had been hit on the dual carriageway near our practice. No chip. No collar.  Dog initially looked like she was on her way out. A few hours later she is sitting up in her kennel, happy on her buprenorphine pain relief and drip. Had a bit of a moment a while ago when she was still very flat and looked like she was going to start fitting - did a quick blood glucose measurement and she was hypoglycemic so she's had the benefit of extra glucose added to her drip. Have phoned the police, no point in phoning charities, other vets and dog warden till Monday. She will stay here till then on fluids, pain relief, antibiotics and TLC. I suspect to no avail as she's a dirty looking, nondescript JRT and may end up not finding a home if she goes to the shelter. I will be very happy if she does turn out to have an owner, she's a sweetie.
We recently sent home a cat that had been hospitalised for a month with a pyothorax. Treatment intensive and expensive - the boss stopped charging when we reached the limit of what the owner could afford. She remained here getting treated for nothing for weeks till she was fit to go home. Total value of treatment and hospitalisation given away free = thousands.
I bet almost every vet has accidentally on purpose forgotten to add on every single item to the bill of complicated cases with a willing but cash-strapped owner. Or sometimes charged a recheck fee instead of a full consult fee, or whatever. Usually the owners don't specifically ask for it; usually, we don't tell them what the real bill would have been if we'd bothered to add it all up and charge them in full.
I bet Croft vets have similar stories! but won't tell them as we vets don't like the word going around that we might give you a discount if you are poor but nice. I'm not telling you where I work!!! The official line is that everyone gets charged in full but rules are made be, um bent sometimes, even (and sometimes especially) by senior partners.

Bless you Irishvet, you have proved that there are very nice people around everywhere, willing to help the waifs and strays of life without looking for gain.

My vet always gives an estimate on the paperwork before c-sections, but we know it will probably end up £150-£200 more expensive than the quote

I have had some lovely vets and the ones I deal with now are great.

Sadly I have faced the we know best kind with a condescending attitude and an inflated idea of their expertise.

The best scenario is when you can establish  relationship with one or more vets, which often isn't the case in large practises where you see someone different each time.

I quite agree that the Vets here acted correctly.

I'm lucky with my vets, trust them and they've given my dogs 110%.

My girl C-section at 9am (and two out of hours visits at 1am and 3am) plus all relevant
checks etc cost approx £700 (3 years ago). Worth every penny to save my girl and her last puppy.

Operation to try and save my oldie (11yo) from bloat (caught early) cost £700 (again worth every penny to give her every
chance to pull through) , we lost her 12 hours after op. She was still at the vets.
Day after losing my oldie had her daughter in the vet for an op to remove MCT's.(Also collected her mum's body to take to
the pet crem on the same day).
Most stressful time out. My two favourite vets at the practise (I know you shouldn't have favourites) and
the reception staff and nurses were lovely, all genuinely cared.

Also known them to treat cats found in a bad way etc.
And like you they probably have helped others in need and bent their rules re payments.

Wouldn't swap them for the world, they are priceless and they do their own 24 hour cover.
Continuity of care is wonderful.  I've spent quite a bit in vets bills over the last couple of years
and I still appreciate my vets for their help and support.

To have to make that decision to PTS the staffy must be the hardest decision and I'm sure wasn't taken lightly.
It would have played on the conscience as if the SBT owners had only bought her in sooner she could have been
saved and faced with a now impossible situation. So Sad and so preventable too.

> Or sometimes charged a recheck fee instead of a full consult fee,

You must be my vet!! No, I'm only joking.  I spend thousands each year at my own vet practise.  Have a lot of dogs, so, even without breeding, he will see me most months with an annual vet check and booster for one or other of the gang.

Most people say the practise is expensive.  But they have a state of the art hospital, and getting test results is pretty darn quick.  If I phone them at 2 in the morning, they know it won't be to have a dogs nails cut!  They will take my concerns seriously, and involve me all the way through.  I need that, my dogs are a very important part of my life.  As it is a large practise, I obviously have my favourite vet, but they all know me by name, and they do their own out of hours, which, again, is important to me.

On a bad year I spent £7,000 but £4,000 a year is not unusual for me.  I almost always get charged for re-visits, when I should really be charged full consult.  And last year, the head of small animal side decided that, in future, he would discount all my vaccinations and boosters.  I really appreciate it too. 

Although I always feel that my vet treats my dogs as if they are the most important dogs in the world, I'm fully aware of the fact that other people say the same.  And that is what counts.  He obviously cares deeply about his profession, and it shows.  I know I have rushed in to see him at 8am in an emergency, and seen him again at 9pm so I appreciate his dedication very much.

As I said, a lot of people say that it is an expensive practise.  But I get what I pay for.  And trust his judgement. 

So, irishvet!  There are a lot of you about!  :-)  :-)  :-)

irish vet...good on you for all the good caring work you do...
i have 100000% trust/faith in my vet,
and yes theres allways 2 sides to every story,maybe what you have written was the case with this bitch...
i agree..there was no need for the rudness towards the vets,
i still thought that it was against vet law to not treat a sick animal regardless of payments ?
jayne
xx

but she was treated.

i agree she was treated. her terrible pain was relieved.