Hi All

We are looking into getting a new puppy and have found a breeder with westies who has currently got 2 litters, they are show breeders so up to now are not sure what they are keeping or running on, they said that none of their pups leave them until 12 weeks and sometimes they may be 14 weeks depending on size and also if they have made their mind up which is fair enough.
The only concern we have is that at 12 or 14 weeks will the puppy settle into a new home as easy as an 8 week old pup? We would be crating the puppy overnight whereas the breeder has just got them in a big run so we assume they will not like going into a crate after having freedom!! Also the housetraining will start later so again not sure whether they will then take longer.
We have always had pups at 8-9 weeks old and have never had an older puppy so would appreciate anybody that has and whether they settle in just as easy, i know they are still young at 14 weeks but i always thought the younger they were the better.

Many thanks

I got my first cocker spaniel and my Saint Bernard both at 13 weeks and it was a dream. They are that bit bigger and stronger and to be honest they dont really begin to get the house training until that age anyway. They quickly bonded with mainly myself but also my family. I would have absolutely no concerns taking on a pup that age again. I think if I ever am lucky enough to have puppies, I'd rather not rehome them til ten weeks. I think everyone is different. But from what it sounds, your pup will be coming from a very good background so I would not worry.

As long as the breeders have socialised and trained their pups appropriately for their age there will be no issue at all of them settling into their new homes almost at any age.

That is the difference in getting a well socialised home reared and handled pup.

A good breeder should not mid you asking on the lines of  "as the first 12 weeks are so vital re socialisation, with the main socialisation window closing around 16 weeks what is your socialisation program for pups that you keep past 8 weeks old?"

Sadly in the past it was not unusual to find older pups run on by a breeder who kept a lot of kennelled dogs, whose lives were not like the average pets, did find problems with under socialised youngsters, but with modern canine knowledge this should not occur, but does no harm to ensure that proper socialisation will be provided.

I kept a girl from my last litter as the people were on holiday (delightful family) until 13 weeks, our pups normally leave at 7/8 weeks. She was raised in our home and I was keeping the male from that litter. I would never do it again, no matter how perfect the owner.

I found it upset my other dogs and my girl was "looking" for this pup, the puppy was hard to settle in the new home and suffered separation anxiety. Thankfully with our advice they worked through it. They did say that her house training was good :)

I did everything with the girl that I normally do with the pups, they are extremely well socialised and exposed to all types of situations and maybe this was a "one off" as she was quite strong willed but I  also found it held back my puppy, his personality did not develop whilst she was with us.
Obviously reading others posts I appear in the minority!!

It depends entirely on the size of the pups and what the breeder does with them. I have pups of a toybreed that won't be going anywhere until 14 weeks of age and there is no way they would be ready before then as they are so tiny and immature. 11 weeks old currently and still spend a lot of time with their mum -in comparison my Malinois bitches more or less forget their pups from 4 weeks of age! But of course these pups have to get out and about, next week we're off to training class for instance -not to train, just to meet people and get lots of cuddles etc. It would be impossible to take an entire litter of a large breed out, but 3 palm sized pups is easy.

> Sadly in the past it was not unusual to find older pups run on by a breeder who kept a lot of kennelled dogs, whose lives were not like the average pets, did find problems with under socialised youngsters, but with modern canine knowledge this should not occur, but does no harm to ensure that proper socialisation will be provided.

Sadly this still happens. Our older dog we got at nine months, he had been run on by his breeder. You learn by one's mistakes, though I would never refer to our boy as that. He was offered to us within five minutes and at first we refused until my husband relented a month later (having fallen in love). Subsequently found out he had been kept in a shed in the garden, got a walk once a fortnight if he was lucky and from his cowered behaviour when out, his socialisation had been minimal.

I got my first Bedlington pup at 11 weeks of age, she had been run on for someone who then changed their mind (lucky me :-D )  she walzed into my house as if she'd always been there     No problems at all, totally confident and well socialized.

I kept a pup until 14 weeks for his owners, who were going on holiday.  They visited him every weekend from 7 weeks old until their holiday and then he went home with them (fully vaccinated) he'd had the same socialization and training as his sister who I kept.   His new owners were amazed that he was all but housetrained, was really confident and already responded to the basic commands - his name, come, sit, liedown, wait :-D

It really does depend on the pup and the breeder and how much work they are putting into the pups ;)

> It really does depend on the pup and the breeder and how much work they are putting into the pups

Dill, Many thanks, I couldn't agree more with you. It's just unfortunate that BYB still exsist and we only saw what we wanted to see at the time. Beautiful, gentle boy and wouldn't change a thing, just made us both very wary.

As other posters have said, it really will not matter so long as the breeder has ensured the pup has been socialised ... and you need to check that it has.

I exported a puppy to Australia and she stayed here until 14 1/2 weeks and then had to go into Quarantine for a month.

In view of this I started her socialisation early, carrying her everywhere from 6 weeks of age, and then she could actually go for short walks the last  two weeks before she left.

At 20 weeks she was picked up by her new owners, had another flight to a different part of Oz, and wanted to be friends with everyone she met, and continued in that vein from then on, in fact being Best Baby Puppy in show that weekend.

Even with no socialisation from 14 1/2 to 20 weeks the early work I had put in, and her breeding shone through.

Absolutely agree with Kate H--both my dogs came at 12-13 weeks old and they settled in perfectly, to the extent that I would not want to take an 8 week old pup on, I think they benefit from that extra time to start becoming more independent and confident in the home they've always known, rather than face them with a complete shock of a new environment before they really know what's hit them.

Slightly different i had Whistler at 8 weeks fine, we had Jake at 8 weeks born in a barn and kept out of the house - he was wild howled, clawed us, would not be picked up. Now you could not tell the difference in the two I would say Jake is more stable and friendly. Socialisation is the key.

Thanks for your replies, the breeder at the moment has got them in his dining room with half of it penned off and lined with paper with loads of toys, he lets them out when they are in into his living room for them to run around and he said that he has just started putting them out into the garden with mum and his other dogs to run around, they have just had their 1st jabs and will have the 2nd before they come home, the only thing i am not sure about is whether he will start the housetraining off with them, i am concerned that if at 14 weeks they have not been put out each time they wake and after eating and are used to going anywhere in the run on newspaper they will be harder to train, not that experienced on pups so may be worrying over nothing.
They are reared in the house and all the adult westies live indoors also

The idea time to rehome a pup is around 7-8 weeks. At just after 8 weeks the fear period sets in and this can hamper socialisation. Providing the breeder is taking them out and about (not just socialisation at home, although this is important) they need to be carried around from about 7 weeks to see the world, i would consider 14 weeks too old to have never left the house and seen traffic, other dogs outside the family, people etc, but if the breeder is willing to do that then it should be fine.

We have still got a puppy here at 11 weeks, they are picking him up on sunday as they have been on holiday for a month, i am concerned mum will be looking for him as he seems to be her favourite, we do have 2 of his litter mates here also that we are keeping for ourselves, hope he doesnt fret for them too much when he goes.

I started housetraining as soon as the pups were up and around.  At first, it's just having different surfaces in the puppy pen - they soon know not to wet/dirty their beds :-D   then as they get older they get put outside to eat and usually wee on going outsided and poo straight after eating, this means that they learn that pooos and wees go outside the house.   By the time they leave home they rarely have an accident inside the house, but that is down to vigilance as well as training ;)

> the only thing i am not sure about is whether he will start the house training off with them,

That really is unimportant, as a pup can be house trained in one situation, but not be in another, they are never really house trained until about five months anyway, that is about the time they have more than passing voluntary bladder control.

I prefer to get a puppy at 12 weeks or later as I find they have more control of their bladders and easier to housetrain. They have usually had their inhectons and can go out to be socialsed without the long wait that you get with an 8 week old puppy.

More importantly to me (a person who loves his sleep), I have found older pups wake up fewer times overnight so making me less grumpy!

Yes I agree with you,the sooner you get your puppy the better,I believe the guide dog puppies get placed with their first walker as young as 6 weeks,the idea being that those early weeks are a critical time to habitualize,socialize and train the pup.I personally bought a young dog who had been run on by his show breeder,and not given much individual attention.It took us 2 years to conquer his car sickness,and although his initial kennel shyness was eventually overcome by a lot of intensive therapy,he was never the confident character we expect a westie to be.The puppy should be weaned by the time it has cut its teeth at about 6 weeks,and the mother will not really want to know them after that,so the only reason to keep the litter together is for the company of the rest of the pups to play fight,socialize and gain confidence etc.If the litter is house reared,they hear all the usual home sounds,vacuum cleaners,phones and such like.We play ours the DVD with all the noises on as well,we also individually handle them as much as possible,so they leave us and settle very easily into the similar environment of their new homes.I would not expect the breeder to keep all the puppies to run on for show potential,there should be at least one they could part with sooner than 14 weeks.They must be waiting to see their second teeth or may be they are concerned with size for show,but it is very unfair on the pups to keep them that long unless they are tiny toys too small to cope with the world

> The puppy should be weaned by the time it has cut its teeth at about 6 weeks,and the mother will not really want to know them after that

I totally disagree.  My bitches are still playing with their pups, and teaching them their social skills, well past 6 weeks.  I have a 13 week old pup here that I just love watching with her mother, the play is fantastic.  I never remove mum from pups, weaned or not.  They are allowed to escape from each other, but choose not to.  The dam of the 13 week old still chooses to sleep with her daughter.

And I am proud of the fact that people say how well socialised my pups are.

What age do you let the pups you are selling go to their new homes, i am more concerned that at 13-14 weeks the pup will take longer to settle as it has spent longer with the breeder but perhaps i am worrying unnecessarily, seems to be different views on the housetraining as some people feel older dogs have better bladder control than 8 week old pups, and i know a different house will cause confusion anyway as they could be clean at the breeders then come home and have accidents.
Its more the socialisation period at that age that i am more wary about and how pup would settle in?

We got our Bernese at 11 weeks - she settled no problems - easy to train, nothing fazes her. Our Gordon we got at 8 weeks - she bonded really well with the Bernese (there is a year between them ) but took longer to house train and can be a bit fearful at times. Our current puppy (pbgv) we picked up at 10 weeks and my mum is well-impressed by how laid back and easy to deal with she is. So I think it depends on the puppy and the breed, there are no right or wrong answers but as long as you are happy with how the breeder is bringing on the puppy you should be fine.
To further confuse the issue my mother always says the best dog she ever had was our old Rough Collie cross who we picked up at 6 weeks - he was just so well bonded with people he was a love. Dakko we got at 5 months and he followed me everywhere (including the toilet) for the first few weeks but settled after that and our first Bernese we got at 7 months - again he settled no problem and was a fantastic dog for the short time we had him.

If you are happy with the breeder and the puppy then go for it - they aren't puppies for long anyway.

> <SPAN class=htt>to</SPAN> HAMISH75 What age do you let the pups you are selling go to their new homes

With my breed, it very much depends on size to be honest.  Between 8 - 12 weeks is the norm for my two toy breeds.  But I recently had a puppy booked and reserved, but the potential new owner turned out to be not suitable.  Although pup would have been able to go at 8 weeks, she stayed until a more suitable owner came along. 

My 13 week old is the one that I kept for myself, and, if she wasn't staying, I would have no hesitation in saying that she is well socialised enought to tolerate a move at this age.  (But she's not going!)

7-8 weeks for me - I'd want to be in charge of socialisation - not to say the breeder can't socialise a pup just as well or better but as I've hopefully got the dog for the next 12 years or more I'd want to be the one in charge during that important stage of development - plus they aren't puppies for that long so why miss out on the fun of having the dog at that age ?   

> plus they aren't puppies for that long so why miss out on the fun of having the dog at that age ?&nbsp; &nbsp;

I appreciate your point here.  But the breed club of one of my breeds does actually stipulate 12 weeks.

Allowing the pups to stay longer with their mum,just makes the eventual separation harder on both of them,and the bonding to the new owner take longer.Obviously you need to be very sure that the new owner has the time and commitment to cope with the needs of the very young pup.  Yes puppies are fun,,but it is selfish to hang on to them when eager new owners have been waiting for weeks to collect their new baby Love them enough to let them go,and start their new life as soon as they are weaned,Socializing and training should come from the new owner,as part of the bonding process.i guess to some it might look uncaring to push them out as soon as possible,a sort of BYB idea,and no one wants to appear like that,but I really believe it is in their best interest.I would not let a club or any one else stipulate rules about this,it is very much a personal decision. Our puppies get a lot of TLC,and we are sad to see them go,its a bit like giving away the kids,but having chosen new owners with care,just do it.with the unlimited life time support and return ticket of course.

The owners of our pup are stuck abroad, due to the volcanic ash, they were very worried not to have picked him up, a relative called us to explain but we already knew they wouldnt be able to collect him.