> Imagine if 2-3000 showdogs were slaughtered/euthanised each year, the subject would be all over the TV & newspapers.

This is what gets me about Greyhound racing.... They expect to find good homes for them all afterwards, or just dump them sometimes with ears cut off to hide tattoos, or just pay someone to shoot them and stick them in a mass grave. If greyhound racing were stopped overnight there would be many more homes for all the other dogs languishing in rescue and it would put an end to a so-called 'sport' of which the average person has no idea of the scale of destruction involved. And 99% are bred in Ireland and shipped over. If we want to discuss how to utilise any animals destroyed in the name of sport, then at least horses can go on to feed other animals or sometimes people. But the waste and the killing in greyhound racing has me really disgusted.

Does anybody know the average horse fatality rate for the GN? Is it higher than other races throughout the year, or is it about the same?

The average rate of deaths apparently read from another site in gn racing is now minimal since they have changed the style of fences since 1990 only 12 fatalities have occured so not even 1 per year the nh on the other hand has produced more than the national.
Im also from a very horsey background although not racing but eventing, my sister's previous horse was from an unwanted/ not made the grade nh he was lovely and excelled himself in eventing even competing at badminton in 2000.  Such a lovely horse she was lucky to find and she did very well with him he is now retired out in the fields enjoying his days.

Hayley

> no animal should be disposable and bred only to be euthanised

All those bull calves that are born to milk cows every year and killed at a few days old, because we tradionally don't eat veal, but it can be reared more naturally.

[url=]Does anybody know the average horse fatality rate for the GN? Is it higher than other races throughout the year, or is it about the same[/url]

Safety for the horse and jokey is paramount, in the scheme of things the GN is far safer for a horse than many other disciplines and hobby ventures   they may take part in.

Eating meat is fundamentally a choice for humans, and the livestock population could be vastly reduced depending on the choice we make--the quantities of slaughtered animals is not an "essential" and there is unshakeable evidence to suggest that we could feed a lot more in the world by choosing to rear far fewer animals for meat. Alternatively, if we were to market rabbit as "good for you" instead of as the Easter bunny, we could significantly reduce feed and housing inputs that make rearing pigs, cows (yes, and horses) such an unsustainable option.

15 million children die of starvation each year, in part because we don't share fairly the global resources we have. In my opinion we have a duty to re-think the way we grow and use crops, an example being the way grain mountains are now treated as a waste product and turned into bio-fuel. Would you want to tell that to a parent whose child is starving that your car comes first? And what on earth would we say if somehow we found ourselves transplanted with our lovely pets and well fed families in parts of the world? What would we say to someone whose family was dying--"Sorry, my dog comes first?"

In this culture we see pigs, sheep, chickens and cows as consumables at our disposal, but elsewhere in the world that could include dogs, snakes, bear and pretty much anything that doesn't eat you first. I don't see the logic of species preference, but I absolutely understand the emotional and psychological drivers. I'm not advocating world-wide veganism as a solution, but I think it's fair to remind ourselves that only a very small and privileged proportion of the world's population is able to choose what they eat, and the price of privilege and choice is the moral responsibility to choose wisely and compassionately so that those who have no choice don't suffer.

Apparently the traditional skins used for bodhrans were...greyhound and donkey skins.

>the quantities of slaughtered animals is not an "essential" and there is unshakeable evidence to suggest that we could feed a lot more in the world by choosing to rear far fewer animals for meat.

Equally there would then be less meat available to feed our dogs, so if we chose the luxury of keeping them they'd need to eat less meat.

>I think it's fair to remind ourselves that only a very small and privileged proportion of the world's population is able to choose what they eat, and the price of privilege and choice is the moral responsibility to choose wisely and compassionately so that those who have no choice don't suffer.

Which is exactly why only the parts of an already-slaughtered animal that humans choose not to eat should go for dog food. No part should be wasted.

> I don't see the logic of species preference

I agree.

My post was not about species preference, I simply can't get my head around the fact that horses that have been kept to emotionally gratify the owner, can be sent to be used for food. It seems very cold-hearted. If the horse had been farmed for food in the first-place it would be different.

I would happily eat & have eaten rabbit, but I could not serve up my own, or even somebody elses, pet rabbit for dinner.

Hi mastifflover--your comments on eating pet rabbits put me in mind of my grandmother's struggle to keep her own and other families alive during WWII. Her answer was to raise as many rabbits as she could--and of course her children inevitably looked on them as pets, but thy had to eat and wear them. She turned them into stews and clothes for her and other people's children, and regularly walked over 100 miles from their village to Berlin to exchange meat and fur for whatever she could get. As a child I used to love going through her jewellery box and I remember once asking her about a beautiful ring I'd never seen her wear. That was when she told me about the rabbits--that ring came from someone whose family only had gold left between them and unremitting hunger. My grandmother could never bear to wear it, and my mother has never eat rabbit from then to now.

Very few of us really know what we will and won't do because we haven't been tested to the limit. There are circumstances where even emotion becomes an unaffordable luxury. That's what I mean by saying we are privileged--not because we have a roof over our heads or own beautiful things, but because we have choices.  

hi Jeangenie, it doesn't necessarily follow that there would be less meat, but there would be different sources and it probably wouldn't be as diverse as the average contents of the butcher's shop as we know it. Rabbit and chicken take 3 months to grow to slaughter, far faster than cows and pigs, and are healthier for our dogs too--high protein, less fat. If we paid anything like the real cost of beef and milk we'd see a massive reduction in cattle populations.

The average can of dog food or complete meal doesn't contain all that much meat protein so a rabbit should go a long way compared to the same weight of beef.If we are going to rear animals for meat then using every single bit of them is the only redeeming argument in favour.

> I simply can't get my head around the fact that horses that have been kept to emotionally gratify the owner, can be sent to be used for food. It seems very cold-hearted. If the horse had been farmed for food in the first-place it would be differen

I used to breed and show Rabbits and I made a distinct mental difference between my show and breeding stock and those that were going in the freezer.

I was fortunate that the breed I kept one could determine early on which were unlikely to make the grade and therefore for the pot.

Very tasty they were too, yet I was very fond of my show and breeding adults.

I am sure farmers are pretty fond of their dairy cows, as they get to know them and keep them far longer than their calves or those destined to be fattened for the table.

> I used to breed and show Rabbits and I made a distinct mental difference between my show and breeding stock and those that were going in the freezer.

Me too - as in I used to breed & show, but I was far too soft to eat them myself! I knew of a local chap who kept birds of prey and he was happy to take away any that weren't needed.

> I was fortunate that the breed I kept one could determine early on which were unlikely to make the grade and therefore for the pot.

Dutch or English? ;)

Now that I am growing into raw feeding, I would love to find a regular source of wild rabbit for my dog. I still don't think I could bear to raise any myself for the purposes of dog food, though it would be an idea - just not for me.

[url=]My post was not about species preference, I simply can't get my head around the fact that horses that have been kept to emotionally gratify the owner, can be sent to be used for food. It seems very cold-hearted. If the horse had been farmed for food in the first-place it would be different.[/url]

I think you have to  understand that the fact that horses are extremely large animals... the consensus by some is that  by sending them to the slaughter house   to be PTS ,  the owner is uncaring..

Firstly considering there are over a million horses and ponies in this country on any given day,  and as the cycle of life is that for every one born , one dies . (regardless of how )   there has to be a structure set in place  for disposal..

With dogs  and small pet animals its so much easier.. one takes their pet to  the  vets has it euthanized and    you then have 2 choices, either allow it to be disposed off with  the masses and not have them back or have your pet back in a small box, which  you then can   then decide on how to set them at rest... that privilege is beyond most horse owners... the logistics are  and can be impossible for many owners..

Horses are like livestock, they are huge animals you cant just take your horse to the vet have them euthanized then  take them home in a box.

thats why  almost all horses will end up at the  slaughter house,  very few people are privileged enough to be able to dispose of a horses body on ones  own land... even then you need to meet regulations... many many people who own horses keep them on livery yards.. they have no choice but to end its life at the knackers yard.. what else are you going to do with it..because the livery yard owner is nto going to allow you to bury every horse on their land..

For many ,  the realities of owning and the ending of a horses life are  clear, the final journey for most will be  a  trip to the nearest  yard.. and   the reality of it probably ending up as dog food   is as clear as mud, but   if one is happy  that their horse has had a good life and quick death, then   so be it.

Some are horrified that one would contemplate having a horse shot or a bolt gun...I have been there done that,   with an old horse of mine, his final journey was to  the hunt kennels, he  walked into the field put his head down to graze and the huntsman,  ended his life  with a gun, very quick  ,  he new nothing.

I have also seen horses put down  by injection...make no mistake it is not as  dignified as  having a dog euthanized, the picture of  your dog going quietly to sleep in your arms is as far from  having a horse PTS by injection as  chalk from cheese.

A horse will be standing up on all 4 legs when the drug is administered, he will drop , try to get up, drop again till he can no longer  get up, some will  thrash about on the floor, needing more of the drug... eventually he will pass on.. but  ask me what I woudl rather do , put a bullet in my horses head, or see him  fight the drug.. I guess you  can see where I am going.

Then you have the problem of "what to do with the carcass"    if you have the animal  euthanized by injection... the slaughterhouse wont take it..  the meat is contaminated  by the drug.

So what does one do, with a half a ton of dead horse, that you have no land to bury it on,   no horse crem near you, no transport  to get it to one, if you did...  all these things need to be taken into account, and if you are  in an emergency   wheres the time to  arrange all this... that is ofcause of you have the money to put it all into place...  lets not forget thousands of horse owners are not well off, they do it on a shoe string   ,   and have their hands tied in respect of  what the final end will be.

I think those who dont have any dealing with the equine, need to take this on board, and  not be so judgmental, towards those who face this terrible choice... its NOT  the same as owning dogs,      so maybe you may just think, before you voice  your displeasure at the way   most horses are sent over  the bridge...   we love our horses as much as we love our  dogs, we realise  that in sending  them on that final journey, is miles away from  the way we do it with our dog.

For those who judge, give me a better solution for euthanasia

>> All those bull calves that are born to milk cows every year and killed at a few days old, because we tradionally don't eat veal, but it can be reared more naturally.

Thats why I was a vegan for several years,it just didn't seem right-I do now drink milk and eat cheese but I get it from a local farm shop where it's produced from a dual purpose herd so at least the calves are reared(with high welfare standards) for meat.

> Dutch or English? ;-)
>

Chocolate English, was a member of both the National English Rabbit Club and the South West English Rabbit club, showed and bred them in the early 80's.

> Chocolate English, was a member of both the National English Rabbit Club and the South West English Rabbit club, showed and bred them in the early 80's.

Then we may have rubbed shoulders, lol... I used to show about that time at Clevedon and Bristol as well as the clubs in Dorset :)

I did a 50 mile circuit of London, and with the SWERC shows showed at Newton Abbot and Frome etc.

> I did a 50 mile circuit of London, and with the SWERC shows showed at Newton Abbot and Frome etc.

Didn't do those, but I did know the Ransomes of Frome :)

> Some are horrified that one would contemplate having a horse shot or a bolt gun...I have been there done that,   with an old horse of mine, his final journey was to  the hunt kennels, he  walked into the field put his head down to graze and the huntsman,  ended his life  with a gun, very quick  ,  he new nothing.

I am not horrified by that in the slightest - your horse was OLD, you gave it a 'good death' when life was not the better option. However, sending a horse to the knackers yard just becasue the owner has no use for it anymore is the thing I have a problem with.

I hadn't though about the disposal of the bodies before, now you've explained that then a dead horse ending up as dog-food seems a perfect solution, but that still doesn't make the fact that horses that have retired are killed instead of being cared for.

When we choose to take on an animal for our own enjoyment I think we owe it to that animal to ensure we can offer it a good life for as long as nature intended, not just until we decide that animal is not good enough anymore.

> so maybe you may just think, before you voice  your displeasure at the way   most horses are sent over  the bridge...   we love our horses as much as we love our  dogs, we realise  that in sending  them on that final journey, is miles away from  the way we do it with our dog.

"Most of the animals, which could live on average more than 30 years, are killed before their fifth birthday." Taken from the link put up by ChristineW

If my dog was a show dog/agility dog, I would not have him PTS just becasue he had retired or was not good enough, even if he were the size of a horse.

> All those bull calves that are born to milk cows every year and killed at a few days old, because we tradionally don't eat veal, but it can be reared more naturally.
> Thats why I was a vegan for several years,it just didn't seem right-I do now drink milk and eat cheese but I get it from a local farm shop where it's produced from a dual purpose herd so at least the calves are reared(with high welfare standards) for meat.

There are also high welfare standards on Dairy farms

I am a tad confused about where jackbox is getting his/her facts from.. though I agree with some of the other stuff said..

Pet horses are usually euthanised by being shot or lethal injection - most commonly by vets, or professionals who will come and do the job at the horses location. Not sure where the idea that horses being pts by lethal injection is always a horrific and lengthy process though i may have misread that bit.. it CAN be.. though dogs and cats can fight the drugs too its a scarier prospect in a horse, but it usually ISNT that way.

Its VERY uncommon for pet horses to be taken to a 'knackers yard' and in fact there are very very few abbatoirs that are kitted out, licenced and prepared to take horses.

Its not even so common these days for the hunt to be a suitable method, since so many horses are on drugs before they go, or are disposed of by lethal injection, its not nearly so common, although some hunts will still dispatch or move deadstock and some will still come up (or recieve live) and shoot a horse so that it can be fed to hounds.

These days failed flat racers DO get tried over jumps - they dont tend to be all that good at it on the whole but then they also dont tend to then make it to races like the grand national. Its not just a case of them not being likely to win that makes them a risky prospect but the fact that not being bred for it means they are a riskier ride and wont attract top jockeys (since jockeys actually dont like coming off!).

You only have to look at the ages of the runners in the GN to see that, whilst jumping IS a riskier sport at face value, those with a hint of talent at it live and compete longer than flat racers do. Most of the runners were over 10, some into their early teens.

On our horse's passport there is a statement you have to sign about whether or not the animal will be slaughtered for human consumption! (as it makes a difference to the drugs a vet can use)  :-o

Yeah - but I remember when passports came out, all the horse owners I knew thought that was fairly pointless (from their point of view) because they wouldnt be sending their horse anywhere it would end up in the food chain anyway.

That bit is about DEFRA covering their own backs and making sure dodgy meat doesnt end up in the human food dchain/ It doesnt actually mean lots of pet horses DO end up there.. as they dont!

>all the horse owners I knew thought that was fairly pointless (from their point of view) because they wouldnt be sending their horse anywhere it would end up in the food chain anyway.

So many horses and ponies get sold several times in their lives, especially when too old to be ridden so sold as 'companion ponies', and this is where the horse-meat traders can step in. :-(

Given that the passport is in both French and English I did wonder if they were exporting for meat - not that it will ever happen to Molly :-)

am a tad confused about where jackbox is getting his/her facts from.. though I agree with some of the other stuff said..

Pet horses are usually euthanised by being shot or lethal injection - most commonly by vets, or professionals who will come and do the job at the horses location. Not sure where the idea that horses being pts by lethal injection is always a horrific and lengthy process though i may have misread that bit.. it CAN be.. though dogs and cats can fight the drugs too its a scarier prospect in a horse, but it usually ISNT that way.

I think, I said very much the same as you ,  facts based on a life time around horses.. and their disposal  when that time comes...  i said they where euthanized by bullet or injection, I simply missed stating it was done be a vet or professional, or at the horses location... (it still ends up at some form of disposel unit, ) be it  going alive or dead!   thought that might be obvious...  I agree lethal injection is NOT always distressing, but but can be, and far to often for my liking  and it is NOT the same as with a dog or cat... as you will know,  my point there was ,  some seem to become horrified at the thought of  shooting a horse, when    in truth , its the quickest and kindest way to put a horse to sleep... done by someone who knows how to do it..  but then I have never met anyone not qualified to do it ,  do it.

Its VERY uncommon for pet horses to be taken to a 'knackers yard' and in fact there are very very few abattoirs that are kitted out, licenced and prepared to take horses.

Where do they go   if not to the abattoir or hunt kennels.    as its a minority that go to be cremated.

Have to say in 40 odd yrs of being aroudn horses, i can count on one hand  those I know , who had their horses cremated...  all the others have gone to either  abattoirs/hunt kennels/ or been lucky enough to bury on their own land... 

I have a funny story of some one who had her horse cremated and  then decided to spread his ashes... (but thats not topical to this thread)

Its not even so common these days for the hunt to be a suitable method, since so many horses are on drugs before they go, or are disposed of by lethal injection, its not nearly so common, although some hunts will still dispatch or move deadstock and some will still come up (or recieve live) and shoot a horse so that it can be fed to hounds.
I did mention lethal injection (it would also include drugs)   in as much as  the carcas not being suitable for meat.

That leaves a bullet being the most  popular and human way to dispatch a horse,   which then brings the problem of  disposing of the carcas..and as I said unless you have facilities to  do so  you are  in the hands of the  knacker man.....hunt kennels  .

You obvioulsy   know more than me so what is the most common way to dispatch  and dispose of horses/ponies, if I have it completey wrong??

These days failed flat racers DO get tried over jumps - they dont tend to be all that good at it on the whole but then they also dont tend to then make it to races like the grand national. I agree,  flat racers altought may make  OK or even  excelling at jumps, the GN and such races are a completeyly different ball game.

Its not just a case of them not being likely to win that makes them a risky prospect but the fact that not being bred for it means they are a riskier ride and wont attract top jockeys (since jockeys actually dont like coming off!).

You only have to look at the ages of the runners in the GN to see that, whilst jumping IS a riskier sport at face value, those with a hint of talent at it live and compete longer than flat racers do. Most of the runners were over 10, some into their early teens.

i agree with all that.