Just a question - if anyone can answer - how do shock collars compare with the use of the TENS unit I use for my painful arm sometimes?    That is a mild shock as well.........

Jo

Speaking as someone who finds even the lowest setting of a TENS machine distinctly uncomfortable, I'd say there are similarities. Now imagine the TENS machine levels under someone else's random control ...

Speaking as someone who finds even the lowest setting of a TENS machine distinctly uncomfortable, I'd say there are similarities. Now imagine the TENS machine levels under someone else's random control ...

And not using it to help you control pain that already exists but giving you a shock whenever they deem you are showing an unwanted behaviour. And perhaps getting the timing wrong so the shock is given at a point where it most certainly shouldn't and on top of that you can't communicate your feelings to them because they don't understand your language.

I use a TENS machine also

I can tell you several things about that sort of sensation..

It varies according to where you put it on your body - even moving an inch left or right can change the strength of the zap.

It varies (obviously) according to how good the contact is too - on a moving object the contact will vary so you can get a light zap and then a harsh one next time.

Predictability has a huge part to play in tolerance of the pain. I can happily take my TENS machine right up on full whack IF its set to a predictable pattern. If my OH comes to adjust it for me (when its on my back or somewhere silly i cant reach) and i get an unexpected zap thats HORRIBLE and makes me jumpy and fearful.

The anticipation of pain can be worse than the pain itself, and you can heighten that anticipation and thus the stress by making the pain unpredictable. Ever had someone wax a part of your body, and do so hesitantly? ... Those who hae will know what i mean, those who havent.. well I can say I was curled in a ball and screaming and my friend was a good 5ft away and coming nowhere near me!

Ive also had tattoos and I find those far easier to tolerate when I can see and thus predict when the pain will come, than when its on my back and I cant see and its unpredictable.

Since e-collars being used remotely by the owner are unpredictable to the dog I can only surmise they cause HUGE stress and anxiety for the dog.

Also the official advice states that the electrode pads of a TENS machine should not be placed over the front or side of the neck - which of course is where e-collars are put.

I'm sorry but you cannot expect us to believe that a tickle will stop a dog with a huge predatory drive! My springer would run through barbed wire if he's chasing something and wouldn't feel pain until the adrenalin has reduced. A tickle would do absolutely nothing. (I tried a spray collar when he was younger and he didn't even bat an eyelid) A shock collar wouldn't work if it wasn't unpleasant, and for predatory drive  it would have to be really unpleasant if it was going to work.
If i remember my learning theory correct is that punishment is less effective if you start low and work your way up as the animal habituates and then needs a higher level of aversive than if you start high. But how do you know what level to start at then? Its a minefield and no dog should ever treated to that!

The tickle will work because your not stopping the dog in drive (chasing killing sequence) your stopping the behaviour that occurs at the very start of the drive sequence, this behaviour is the first predatory stare at the prey item. If the dog won't look at the prey he won't carry the sequence any further.

The same level is used as that demonstrated by the gsd in the video.

It is an aversive method but an extremely mild one.

Yes the collars do have lots of levels, why because dogs sensitivity varies.

This isn't punishment its negative reinforment for looking away.

RK What's the question?

Adam

A TENS machine is used to help ease pain rather than cause it.  It works on the pain gate system to release endorphins etc to help dampen the pain you feel either at the site of the pads, or the area supplied by the nerve the pads have been placed on.  Most people find it works well on a mild tingling setting although there are a variety of settings you can use to stimulate different aspects of the nervous system. 

So for me the main difference is that it is used as a tool in pain relief rather than to cause pain.

E collars don't cause pain!

Adam

>E collars don't cause pain!

LOL! Of course they do - or are all the people who've tried them on themselves liars? Are all the dogs that yelp and cower when they're zapped acting?

E-collar users need to admit that they're deliberately causing discomfort or pain to animals, when there are viable alternatives. If they're happy with that then there's no hope for them.

Incorrect use, I've met dogs who cower at the sight of leads so lets ban them shall we?

Dogs trained with e collar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzcHXqS25MQ

Another good vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a1j39ZxAM

Adam

JFC
lot of people say it's similar, With an e collar if you just found the first level then didn't train but randomly used it the dog would habituate to it very rapidly. With the e collar you look at it as a tens machine that you turn off when the dog does the right thing.

Adam

There's arguing with you is there, Adam? :)
I think your time on here is wasted - if you really want to promote shock collars, you're in the wrong place.... unless you just wanted to perhaps provoke some strong feelings among us (kind of a done deal, really). Do you have shares in e-collars or something??? ;)

And also, as I mentioned before, it seems you haven't read David Ryan's work (just his website maybe) as you would see that IF (big if) a shock collar is used there are ways to try and ensure beforehand the dog doesn't associate it with any random thing that may be going on at the millisecond it gets a shock. Now, that is what I call sensible, rational, understanding use of a shock collar - if one ever has to be used at all.

I read a case history from Peter Neville (APBC/COAPE) where he described a dog that had been zapped (to resolve a chasing issue if I recall rightly) but at that moment a plane flew overhead. For ever after it was terrified of planes, and it took LOADS of work to a) desensitise the dog to its terror of aircraft and b) resolve the issue behind why the collar had been recommended in the first place.

If that was one of your clients, how would you have handled it....? (curious to hear your side).

I read the same history I believe.
The dog was zapped high and reacted by running off. This wouldn't happen with me as the level would be so low, also the dog would be leashed. So there's no comparision.
If I remember the dog was still on line (the original problem) by the end of the case study.

Adam

> If I remember the dog was still on line (the original problem) by the end of the case study.<br />

So, how would you have handled that - both in the first instance and later, if the same dog had come to you instead of Peter neville  (or indeed, afterwards?) ?

Dogs trained with e collar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzcHXqS25MQ

Another good vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a1j39ZxAM

Adam

Do you really think that was good training, did you notice any signs of stress, appeasment etc?  Not all of them subtle, there was actually a yelp in one of the links but of course it doesn't cause pain /confusion/fear! All of those things are perfectly achievable and better without the use of an e collar, because they were training basic behaviours in the second.  In the first video that they miraculously missed out the chunk going from one to the other - they supressed the dogs behaviour very well, hadn't actually changed the way the dog felt about other dogs just supressed the behaviours that make it obvious (to those who don't have a clue about the more subtle body language) that shows clear discomfort, which is exactly why punishment based training is dangerous, because you have a dog that still feels negatively, more so a lot of the time because they have had something else aversive to associate with the original fear/dislike but wihtout the clear indication! You can dress it up however you like Adam and say black is white as much as you like but by definition if something decreases a behaviour by using aversives (no matter how small you think the aversives are) then it is punishment!

Adam, unfortunately for you, those videos do not support your case!

I only checked the first one for a few seconds - now, she could work better with that dog by not getting him/her so aroused and working at more of a distance at first. You do NOT need a shock collar to help that dog! dear me. It annoys me when the shock collars are used for everything.

Second video. Hmm. Yes you can hear a yelp, which considering the dog knows  the collar, doesn't exactly support your cause.
The dog probably looks fine to the INEXPERIENCED eye, sure. To the experienced eye, it does not.Can you not see anything wrong with it? A certain US person always recommends this video. Yet it shows appalling training. I like this to someone who sees a horse with a painful condition - most people who were not into horses, or even those who ride a fair bit, may not recognise a problem. Yet find a good equine vet and a person skilled in reading horses, trot that horse up, and they would quickly spot problems! It's clear too that the toy is  a stress reliever. Most of the time, that dog "looks" eager - eager to avoid/ecape the stim, yes!!! That is what the use of the collar in this way does. It disgusts me.

I agree too with the post above - all that stuff could easily be trained by a clicker or even simple reward training with no clicker at all - either way - you really don't need a shock collar. In fact this video proves how bad things get for dogs, once shock collars are allowed - because people start to use them to train basics, and basic tricks/obedience, and all the time the dog is actually under pressure.

I guess you think that's just fine? :(

I have friends in Colorado - I know probably a bit more about this trainer than you do. My friends have been directly involved with her. I'll leave it there, but perhaps you can tell they were not impressed by her methods - in fact the complete opposite!
Also my friends originally some years ago, went to someone out there who said they used shock collars on low levels, and she was told the usual "rubbish" and when her dog, a gsd, was cringing and crying, she was told he was just playing up and wasn't at all scared. Oh really! :( :( :(

Lindsay

x

E collars don't cause pain!

Yes of course they do. Put one on a dog or a human, turn it up a little, and hey presto, you've got a pain reaction, and probably a fear reaction too.

The fact you can turn them up, and that they have many levels, certainly means they do cause pain. And the fact that shock collar people tend to edit their videos to cut out bits that show dogs showing/experiencing pain (these same people who profess their dogs are happy and the shock collar does not hurt) says a lot.

They basically cut out the truth.

Lindsay
x

It's always enlightening (for those who actually understand canine body language!) to watch videos like this with no sound, so that you can actually watch the dog without being distracted by the handler's diversionary waffle. That's when you see the clear evidence of distress.

You say dogs have differnt levels of sensititivity, then surely it is possible that a very sensitive dog can feel pain at the lower levels? How do you know that each individual dog doesn't feel pain?

>How do you know that each individual dog doesn't feel pain?

That's something that's sadly way beyond the average dog owner's capabilities, which is why the ban has been brought in.

Mrs T
If the dog was brought to me as it was brought to Nevile I would use an e collar to teach/enforce the recall.
I'd also use a sound cd to desensitise the dog to noise of planes in the home and counter condition with food ect.
Then I'd use the e collar to enforce recall when out and about and when a plane flew over, also would use rewards to counter condition the dog to plane and reward the recall response.

Everyone else.
Tell me excatly what was wrong when it was wrong with the video. I didn't hear the dog yelp in any of the videos. I should point out the 2nd and 3rd vids were shot with other dogs around so are noise heavy.

Yes she could have decreased distance in the 2nd vid but you can't do that practically on the street can you. I constantly have dogs brought
to me who will tolerate another dog at 10 yrds but not 5 yrds. These dogs have had month of work with rewards on this but simply won't get over the distance thing. Using the e collar to enforce a better behaviour allows the dog to get over it very rapidly and have better life. I also note lots of pr trainers don't really fix the dog (e;g off lead and social) just make it slightly better eventually.

K
I would also argue that these things are not perfectly acieveable with many dogs to a degree of reliablity in an acceptable time frame. Also dogs will show signs of appeasment in any situation were interaction occurs simply because they're social animals.

Adam

Perhaps before these collars are banned, Adam should wear one around his neck and be shocked each time he states how painless they are! How long before you were begging for a ban then Adam?

Whilst there are other good methods of training dogs around no decent trainer should need to resort to this method of training and if they did then people should be giving them a wide berth!

..Also dogs will show signs of appeasment in any situation were interaction occurs simply because they're social animals.

Appeasement has been shown to be linked to stress - context, context, context!!!!!
Certainly a dog will be showing appeasement inthis situation!

Adam, not being funny but as a child I expect you sometimes took a bit of time to learn things. Was it always within an acceptable time frame? If not, should your parents/guardian have used a shock collar on you? Especially if, like, me, you delighted in running off towards the front gate, a potentially dangerous thing to do?

I'd say that if anyone is using shock collars for basic training they need to have this done: have the collar put on them, have an inexperienced owner teaching them things they are not used to doing, via the shock collar (and using lead guidance if necessary). Living i the huma world, you'd probably "get" what was wanted much quicker than a dog, but I bet it would not be a very pleasant experience for you :(

Lindsay
x

The tickle will work because your not stopping the dog in drive (chasing killing sequence) your stopping the behaviour that occurs at the very start of the drive sequence, this behaviour is the first predatory star Ife at the prey item. If the dog won't look at the prey he won't carry the sequence any further.

Which is exactly how the whistle and verbal recall works, it's called being vigilant those of us who have dogs with a high prey drive need to be be aware of what our dogs are doing, the moment we see the stare or spot something ourselves which will inevitably lead to a chase we recall our dogs immediately, you have a fraction of time to get your dogs attention, those dogs which have had the time put in and are well trained will recall even at the start of flight, when adrenalin is beginning to pump, but as those you deal with are watching enough to give a zap at the stare stage why can't they use their voice or a whistle? That is how the majority of us get a recall.

It shows that the collars are not being used in the extreme as you firstly indicated but as a normal training tool, instead of verbal commands, whistle or clicker.

Roll on the ban.........................

i agree that the collar should not be used for basic training. after 5 years of umming and ahhing i finaly brought one for my dog who chases joggers and bikes and barks at lone men in the park (not if they have a dog with them). i used it on the lowest level to start and she couldnt feel it so went up to where she can feel it-- she shakes her head and stops what shes doing. as an owner i know i need to be vigilant but if a jogger should appear and i havnt seen it in time to put her lead on i know i can use the collar which stops her in her tracks then i recall and she runs to me for praise. i have probably only used it 4/5 times in the 2 years i have had it but it makes me feel safe knowing i can use it and stop her biting someone. i would rather have the collar than have her pts if she bit someone. i love this dog like my children and she sleeps on my bed. i only use it in the park never at home either.

but if a jogger should appear and i havnt seen it in time to put her lead on i know i can use the collar which stops her in her tracks then i recall and she runs to me for praise. i have probably only used it 4/5 times in the 2 years i have had it but it makes me feel safe knowing i can use it and stop her biting someone. i would rather have the collar than have her pts if she bit someone

So why don't you just keep her on a lead in places where she will come across joggers etc? Whatever the excuse for using a shock collar that is all it is - an excuse. As I have said before I have a rescue dog who has an exceedingly high prey drive and can be iffy with some dogs so I have to find areas to walk him where he is less likely to come across anything that might cause us problems and a lot of the time he spends on a long line so I have to make sure he is walked a great enough distance to compensate for this.

I live five minutes distance from the sea and there is a great walk there through fields and along the seafront where many, many dog walkers go and it would be wonderful if I could just take my dogs there but that would be very irresponsible of me. Instead I drive 10 miles to an area where I know there is far less chance of me coming across loose dogs and where I can have all round vision as to what problems we may encounter. It is a pain having to go so far when a great walk is on my doorstep but I would far rather do that than subject my dog to an electric shock collar or risk problems with other dogs. His high prey drive has to be managed and doing it in a humane way is the only way IMHO.

i dont want to keep her on a lead as this is the only place i can walk her, its not my fault joggers go there. i also have  a high prey drive dog which has tried to leave the park near the dangerous main road in persuit of prey and i have trained her to recall instantly for cheese as a reward. she is totally different from my other dog (although the same breed) and believe me i have tried all sorts of training with the one who wears the collar to no avail. i am not a stupid person and this collar was a last reasort- why should she be on lead at all times?

i am not a stupid person and this collar was a last reasort- why should she be on lead at all times?

For the same reason as one of my dogs has to be on a lead the majority of the time. To keep him and others safe and to do so without causing him harm or stress. I would love to be able to let him off lead far more than I do now and I too have another dog who is very well trained and is off lead for the majority of a walk but that doesn't alter the fact that I have to adapt what I wish for to what is possible. I too could use an electric collar on my dog which would mean I could walk where I wanted and when I wanted but I don't buy into the belief that I am entitled to use whatever there is available to make my life easier if that is going to be to the detriment of my dog. I, as a human being, do not have the given right to make life easier for myself at the detriment to another.

I find it really hard to understand that people can put what makes life easier for them above the all round welfare of their dog. I am not saying that you don't adore your dog but I do find your use of an e collar misguided and, in my world, cannot comprehend how someone who loves their dog would willingly give it electric shocks.

i dont willingly give her electric shocks! i already said its a last resort and using it 4/5 times in 2 years is not much.

i dont willingly give her electric shocks!

But that is how an e collar works!! She does something you want to stop and you activate the collar which administers the shock - I am sure she doesn't ask you to do it so it is your choice hence you willingly giver her an electric shock.

> he is totally different from my other dog (although the same breed) and believe me i have tried all sorts of training with the one who wears the collar to no avail

How many different people have you set up to jog past her at a distance while you keep her attention & praise, then gradually decrease that distance so they are whizzing right past you? How long did you try that method before giving up?

Desensitization/counter conditioning, works wonders. When my dog first saw my boys riding a bike he actually tried to chase them around the garden, jumping up at them (that's a suprise because he usually has NO get-up-&-go about him), gradually, with him being rewarded for paying me attention he has got used to bikes, not just my boys on bike - anybody, including strangers, whizzing out of nowhere from behind us & narrowly avoiding us (bear in mind he's a guarding breed too)- . All done with no e-collar in sight, just cheese for the desired behaviour, patience & good timing.

> why should she be on lead at all times?

I imagine for the same reason you choose to shock her - to stop her chasing people. A lead does not have to be short, a long-line is great for training.

I have exactly the same problem with my Aussie (except that she has never bitten anyone, but might nip given the chance which is what I want to prevent) :( However, I would never resort to a shock collar. As has been suggested, I only let her off the lead when I am pretty sure that she is distracted playing with her ball or I have a clear field of vision so can put her on the lead quickly. Playing a very energetic game of ball gives her even more exercise than a lot of dogs get just wandering around off lead :) :) She also did agility and obedience classes for many years which kept her stimulated as well.

Daisy

> How many different people have you set up to jog past her at a distance while you keep her attention & praise, then gradually decrease that distance so they are whizzing right past you? How long did you try that method before giving up?

This is not as easy as it sounds. Firstly it has to be total strangers and takes a lot of setting up and time. I could not find enough people who were fit enough to jog across the fields and also be prepared to do this on a long term basis :(

Daisy

In reply to Tina, who said "its not my fault joggers go there. i also have  a high prey drive dog which has tried to leave the park near the dangerous main road in persuit of prey and i have trained her to recall instantly for cheese as a reward."

I would respond that it IS YOUR FAULT THAT YOU TRY TO WALK HER WHERE THERE ARE JOGGERS!

Find somewhere that joggers do not go to let her off-lead.   By using a shock collar on her when she starts to pursue a jogger, you are reinforcing her fear of joggers - she sees a jogger and she gets jagged!  Poor girl - she deserves better.

> I could not find enough people who were fit enough to jog across the fields and also be prepared to do this on a long term basis

lol, I can imagine that being a problem!
I must admit, I never 'set up' people to ride on bikes to change Busters reaction, I would not have got enough people to do it regularily enough. I timed his walks so we would encounter children on bikes and also take along my boys on thier bikes.

But people want a 'quick fix', they don't want to spend months training a dog with kind methods, or to have to go out of their way to walk dogs when you can give it a shock and hey presto - dog does what you want! Doesn't matter that you are being less than kind to another living being - I'm sure a a quck sharp kick in the ribs would have a similar effect, but then that would mean that YOU were hurting the dog, pressing a button is sooooo much easier - takes away the personal element of the pain and your dog will still love you! I understand the frustration of having a dog that is less than perfect when it comes to recall - but you have to accept that YOU took on that dog/breed and often these things are breed traits - if you don't like or can't accept the trait then don't get the breed or prepare yourself for many months, possibly years of training to overcome them. Alternatively do what Harley and Daisy have had to do - accept your dog is not perfect and do your utmost to prevent problems by avoiding situations where they can happen! If you had two year old who regularly ran into the road would you stick an electric collar on them to get instant results? Of course not - you would accept that that is what toddlers do and take steps to prevent it - dogs are no different you know!

The problem that I had was that we only saw a jogger occasionally (not for months sometimes), so Tara never 'got used to them' :( Had we had a park etc nearby where joggers were regularly, then it would have been easier to sort the problem.

Daisy

i finaly brought one for my dog who chases joggers and bikes and barks at lone men in the park (not if they have a dog with them)

I can understand your worries for your dog Tina, because my dog also has a very high predatory chase drive and would chase deer, horse riders, joggers, cyclists, etc. I worked on it in various ways - clicker/desensitisation to the cyclists (went to cycle paths with plenty of space around to do this) and for other things, I taught an emergency "leave"command in a very similar way to this:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/

teaching the toy as a predictive command. I found the concept of Leave helped becausethe dog, as she was trained, never got to eat/chase/catch anything that had the word "leave" attached to it. I did all of this in a totally reward based way and was able to recall her from deer she'd put up! The command had to be taught in a special way and gradually made more difficult, but it's no different from the way many good trainers teach it :)

Re joggers/horse riders etc, I taught her to work for her fav. toy so that she ended up ignoring the joggers etc and would Sit as they approached, toy was always thrown as a reward for good behaviour It got so that she'd Sit when a horse cantered by!

It can be done without, but it does take training/setting up opportunities, etc.

RE the barking at men - this can show anxiety, and  I'd really not use the collar for this.IF she associates the men with the collar, she may get worse towards them (not necessarily barking, but worrying) and then she may react badly when you are not expecting it.

Lindsay
x

Carrington

Many dogs will ignore a pr trained recall if sufficently interested in the prey item. Also training my way m,eans the dog just ignores the prey it doesn't require a recall from the prey or any commands at all it just doesn't look at it!

Why should dogs have their quality of life restricted because there owners won't use a very humane training aid?

Adam

Why should a dog have it's quality of life restricted because it is owned/trained by someone who believes an inhumane tool is a great training aid.

Adam, you aren't going to alter anyone's mind, and if anyone wants to PM you about your methods, I am sure they will.
I for one am getting bored of yet another shock collar debate, as they always go round in circles and always the same arguments andcounter arguments. Thankfully, shock collars ARE now banned in Wales, and I hope that they will also be banned elsewhere in time.

Lindsay
x

Why should dogs have their quality of life restricted because there owners won't use a very humane training aid

Why should dogs have their quality of life restricted severley because owners want to use quick fixes with the use of very inhumane training devices? 
There's plenty of eveidence to suggest that they aren't humane Adam and as Lindsay sys, you aren't going to change peoples minds because they know better!

Lindsay also covered your response or part response to my post earlier about appeasment, you didn't actually not what was appeasment and stress though (I suspect because you are unaware) appeasment is linked to stress and I can assure you my dogs dog show me appeasment suring training sesssions and if tehy do then I take note and adjust what I am doing.  You also didn't comment re the yelp, I suppose dogs naturally do that during training sessions too do they - the sencond clip with the basic training, was appauling training in the latter part of the clip, setting the dog up to fail with the dog getting very confused about which side it should be and not being rewarded for small enough steps so making it stressful for the dog before she even started zapping the collar. 

Honestly Adam I feel sorry for dogs that are in your care ( not because you have used a collar, because we all make mistakes but because you are so blinkered and so sure you are right even when provided with eveidence to the contrary) and I seriously hope you don't consider yourself a professional trainer and are not passing the dangerous advice on to members of the public!  You ar the kind of 'trainer' many of us are working desperately hard to see the back of in the UK and we often end up dealing with the fall out of damaged dogs when they have previosuly been to a 'trainer' such as yourself.

Many dogs will ignore a pr trained recall if sufficently interested in the prey item.

Really! What do you base this information on? Do you base this on trained or untrained dogs? The latter I presume, never met a well trained dog yet that will not recall, down or stay on command no matter what is running infront of them. It is down to training I know plenty of people, myself included who would laugh in your face if you tried to tell us that we couldn't stop our dogs from going after the rabbit, bird, deer, squirrel (you name it) running infront of them by one verbal command or whistle.

Have you ever even tried to train a dog the right way?

The tickle will work because your not stopping the dog in drive

Adam, I am now wondering why they are not called 'Tickle Collars' if that is all they do??? 
The answer is in the name I believe, e collar or shock collar because they do 'Shock' the dog with an electric shock and electric shocks = pain! 

Electric doesn't = pain if low enough, you can say any physical stimulus = pain if used strong enough.

Carrington, if pr is so effective why can't all dogs be trained reliably off lead with it? Certainly food and a clicker is cheaper than an e collar!

Lindsay. Your intitled to your opinion of me, I've tried to keep this polite. I am a proff dog trainer and do use e collars frequently with great results!

Adam

KC
Appeasement will occur in virtualy all social interactions between dogs and people (and dogs and dogs) It's as normal a social behaviour as smiling is in humans.

Adam

Appeasement occurs when one individual is under mental distress and is trying to ease the tension.

Adam, I am very aware of what appeasment is and when it occurs because I am very aware of body language and you just keep skirting aorund my points - appeasment has been proven to be linked to stress and given that an electric collar is being used the dog will be unders tress so in that context that is why appeasment and other stress behaviours (which you keep ignoring) are very evident.  I am a trainer and I run classes and do behavioural consultations and by the end of my classes usually the dogs that have previosuly been trained using harsher methods whcih are pretty much always very appeasey and stressy in behaviour are entirely different by the end of the classes and offering far les by way of appeasment and are much less stressed but are offering enthusiastic happy body language that is eager and keen.  Appeasment does not occur in all situations, as I've said it is vey rare that my dogs offer an appeasment gesture (context as Lindsay has already pointed out) ion training sessions with me, they are eager and keen and have no need to appease me because they aren't stressed and find what we are doing very rewarding and are very focussed on the task at hand.

Linsday has been polite, I think the comment you are refering to with regards to professionalism was mine not Lindsays and I stand by it, you may take money for training but you are not under my definition or any of the good well known canine behaviour and trainers definition of a professional.  Sorry but if you need to resort to using such devices then you do not have the special skills required to work in this field which is what would make you a 'professional'  Can I ask what qualifications you have in this field, I'm not saying that someone can't be a good trainer without but many many can't and you clearly don't understand the science behind the way dogs learn and clearly don't understand about body language which is imperative when working with dogs.

One thing to my mind that makes someone a good trainer is the abvility to keep learning and developing as there are new things known about all the time, if you are not prepared to look at the eveidence and think that your way is with with so much eveidence to that contrary, then not only ar you not a good trainer now but you unfortunately never will be as you don't have an open mind of the desire to improve what you can offer as a trainer!