I meet a gal with a GSD girl, spayed, a few months older than my Lab boy, intact, who is two and a half.  We drive to a spot in our separate cars and walk off leash.  At first meeting my boy is nasty to the GSD and he seems to be getting worse.  No matter which of us arrives first he rushes at her, grabs at her neck, growls and barks.  She has never been hurt, she runs away and is faster than him.  He desists when we tell him to though we have to yell to make ourselves heard.  It lasts maybe a minute.

Then they play, they run, they wrestle.  The GSD, though she weighs slightly less, is taller and she wins most of the races and all the wrestling matches.  She's always on top and Oban seems to like it that way.  We joke that he likes to be dominated.  Their play is accompanied by the usual play growls and barks.  These are nothing like the sounds my boy makes when they first meet.

Then he will get mean again and his barks and growls and bites seem much more serious.  The GSD rarely shows signs of being intimidated.  When she does she cowers or comes back to her owner.  Mostly she simply outruns him.  When Oban is told to EASY he does and looks around at us with a big smile on his face. 

We don't understand his behaviour.  Mostly nice, sometimes mean and we think getting worse.  At first it was just pretty rough play, now it sounds more serious.  At the end of our outing today he jumped up in the other gal's car to go home with the GSD.  Goofball.  Once when I'd had him out for an hour we met the GSD with her male owner and the meeting was friendly and they played right off.  Maybe it's the other woman owner, maybe it was the previous hour off leash that made the difference that time.  If it was the hour, well, I can't arrange that ahead of time every time.

Another weird thing, these two dogs mostly only play like this with each other.  That's why we go out together, they both get a really good run.  Oban does play like this, wrestling and running, with his English Shepherd cousin who is 11 months but no mean stuff.  The GSD only plays with Oban for any length of time, most dogs the other gal has met are intimidated by her, or their owners are.

Does anybody have any insight into my dog's strange aggressive behaviour when we meet and periodically throughout a walk?  And then his nice behaviour for most of the time?  The other gal and I wonder if he gets frustrated at not being able to keep up to the GSD but how that fits when we first meet is hard to explain.

Hi,

It may be the adrenaline and anticipation of the meeting as you always go to the same place he will know what's going on and maybe is betting over excited and frustrated and sounds like maybe lacking some self control and releases that in an intitial outburst.  I would prevent it happening as he is likely to lean behaviour that you really don't want, like being a bully can be rewarding, plus it can't be great for the other dog, even though she sou ds pretty resiliant.  I would prevent it by keeping them both on lead for a short while first and walking alon side each other with both of you inbetween the dogs as other wise they will find it hard, even if you need to walk quite a distance apart, take some goodies and get him focussed on you and responding to you and give him five minutes or so of calming down and responding to basic exercises, then let them greet each other and hopefully some of that frustraction and adrenaline will have calmed a bit and they can go about their normal play.

Karen

My boy does this to his mum, but only his mum. He leaves the others alone. Like Karen I believe it is just the excitement of being let off lead knowing he is free to run. After a couple of minutes (and me telling him to leave her alone ;-) ) he is fine. I have found that by keeping her on a lead until he has calmed down has stopped this behaviour. These are my own dogs though, and they live together, so I don't know if it would work for you. Your boy will be more excited as he doesn't live with his playmate.

My male Rottie does this with my mum's Rottie bitch and my sisters Leo....he luckily has much better manners with other dogs that he meets.

I have to say though with my boy there is no malice, it is just over the top behaviour which in my eyes is not acceptable.  I normally let them off at different times and if he creates too much noise or is too rough with the girls he gets warned with a stern voice to 'back off' he knows this means get away from the other dogs and he does so every time.  If he then goes back for a second time he gets put on his lead to calm down.  Once he has walked for a while on lead he is let off again and resumes 'normal' behaviour and we have no more sillyness.

Recently the female Rottie will stick up for herself and puts him in his place so he runs back to mum and hides!

I would say to walk them on lead together for short time before letting them off.  Let them off lead at different times so hopefully this decreases the excitement and give him a warning, if he doesn't listen or goes back for more then he gets put straight on his lead.  Let him off again after he is calm and walking along nicely and see how he reacts, if needed repeat the above.

Hmmm, OK, some good points.  I will address these to all of you, with thanks.

We go to a different place each time we meet.  Both dogs know most places but sometimes one does not, or neither has been there for a while.  Both dogs get most of their exercise off leash, every day.

A few places do require a short leash walk before we reach a place safe to be off leash.  We have often let them off at separate times.  Once free each will make a beeline for the other.

Focus on me, treats and obedience exercise before release off leash - Yes, I'm working on that and getting good results.  Not when the GSD is around, yet.  Not at the first release off leash.  I mean, she's there but Oban cannot yet focus in that situation.

Intervals of focus work and heeling during our outing I do as well but it only seems to work for the time I'm doing it.  Even stranger, I can work both dogs at the same time and can treat them with them sitting side by side and I see no indication that this might cause a scrap to get the treat.

Yes, the GSD seems pretty resilient.  At first we followed the line of thought that she would back down or retaliate if Oban got too rough and we just left them to work it out on their own.  She does not retaliate.  On the extremely rare occasion she backs down Oban does stop but, really, that's once in a blue moon.  Mostly she outruns him through the bush with him getting more and more worked up about it till they both get too tired or we stop them.  They are usually too far away for us to immediately intervene.

The odd time they have been leashed mid walk (we met horses or logging equipment or something or had to cross a road) the subsequent release may or may not preciptate another rough greeting. 

Does it help to know these are two very fit dogs?  The GSD runs with her owners while they bicycle.  They went 18 kilometres the day before our most recent outing.  My boy is running off leash for at least an hour every day, more like 3 on the weekends.

Your boy will be more excited as he doesn't live with his playmate.

Good point.  But we do regularly meet other dogs, including his cousin, and he does not act this way with them.  We don't plan to meet most of the other dogs but if I go a certain place at a certain time I pretty well know who else will be there.  We might even see them more often in a week than we see the GSD.

I do believe dogs just dislike certain other dogs.  But most of the time we're out Oban seems to really like playing with the GSD.

We go to a different place each time we meet.  Both dogs know most places but sometimes one does not, or neither has been there for a while.  Both dogs get most of their exercise off leash, every day.

Hi,

Sorry I assumed as was readin it quickly that it was the same walk, however he if there are a set of walks then he will probably know and also he will pick up cues from you that mean it's a walk with her than just with you and him.

I would think that he probably needs more time on the lead to start with and probably with a greater distance between them so that you set up a situation where he can concentratenwith her present - make sure you have very high value food rewards which always help.

Honestly as you have seen things liek this usually progress and he will fiNd it reinforcing, I would strongly advise that he not be allowed to practise the bullying behaviour, even if she is a strong girl that shouldn't be taken advantage of and there may come a time when she does react and a fight will not solve anything.  I would maybe use a long line so that you are in control of the suituation then they remain a distance away for you to intervene beofre it really starts and you can keep things calmer. After getting him to relax and calm down a bit, at a stand still or walking with a good distance between you then when they are calmer, realease but holding on ot the line, if he goes in inappropriately then you can rein him back in with the line so that he doesn't get to practise the unwanted behaviour and also realises that behaviing like that ends the fun.  Call him and if he doesn't respond use the long line and reward him when he gets back to you, at first even when you have needed to guide him towards you with the line.

I expect excitement plays a big part but I expcet it is down to more than just that, frustration and lack of self control as well as having learnt it is rewarding to be a bit of a rought bully.  I would be working on self control as well as basic obedience exercises and setting him up to succeed generally and around his friend by planning a way, (by use of long line, distance, using high enough rewards etc etc) to get the results you need, even if that means he needs to have onlead/longline walks around her for the time being, it's better than letting him practise this.

Hope that makes sense,

Karen

OK, this is good stuff.

cues from you that mean it's a walk with her Yes, I'm sure of that.  'Specially since I often tell him. 

very high value food rewardsYes.  Real roast beef.  It was on sale last week so I bought two big roasts, cooked them and they were so big I cramped my hand all up cutting them into little bits.  Much cheaper than any decent dog treat.  All the other dogs love me.  :)

he probably needs more time on the leadHmmm.  Tricky for us.  Since both dogs are used to a couple of hours off leash they are both quite fit and it will take a lot of leash walking to reach a state of calm.  I can try it though and see what happens.

a long lineI thought of that but a report on another forum of one dog getting it's leg broken from the long line of the other made me really leery.  A problem with this is that if my boy is on leash the GSD will be pestering us as she is off leash.  She is not leash trained, unbelievably.

self control as well as basic obedience exercises and setting him up to succeed generally and around his friend Believe it or not my boy is actually quite good in his obedience classes and I do work him on some exercises when we meet other dogs and we do practise him focusing on me at those times.  I don't know if you in the U.K. are familiar with Leslie McDevitt and her Control Unleashed book and DVDs?  I think they are wonderful and I have already seen vast improvement by using her "games."  For some strange reason I have not thought to try them when Miss GSD is around. 

Hope that makes senseYes it does and that is the value of asking for someone else's insight.  It's easy to overlook something obvious when you are trying to critique yourself.  First thing I'm going to try on our next outing is some of the Control Unleashed games.  It might be too big a jump to a highly distracting situation with not enough intermediate steps but worth a try.

I have had another idea, what do you think?  Oban is fantastic at coming on the whistle and his reward is a throw of the tennis ball.  I can call him off of deer, bicycles, snowmobiles, dogs etc.  But, would the subsequent tennis ball actually be rewarding him for bullying the GSD?  Bullying would not be most directly performed action, the recall would be, but still?  My concern is it might prompt more bullying because now when we see a snowmobile, well not now, that's over (though it was snowing today) he immediately looks to me to call him and throw the ball.  Same with the ATV we heard in the bush this morning.  Maybe he'd learn to just look at the GSD instead of being rough with her though.  See, this is my problem, I think about it too much.  :(

Yay!  Good walk today.  I went early and threw tennis balls for about 15 minutes before the other gal arrived.  It worked.  A nice meeting, no growly rough stuff and only one episode during our walk which was not too rough either.  We were out for two hours and the dogs loved going to a place neither has been since last fall as it has cross country ski trails in winter.  The ski trails are track set and dogs are not allowed since they wreck the trail.  If all I need to do is get the starch out by throwing tennis balls first I can handle that for most walks.

Sorry didn't reply before I have butterfly brain!  That's great that you had a good walk :-) Yes I am aware of control unleashed, in fact it is quite similar to a lot of the stuff I do in my classes as I do small groups for dogs that can be a bit reactive/anxious etc. 

I would use that if you have time and get him to exercise some self control at those times, iusing th games he knows, but remember to do it in little steps and build upo in small increments so that he can be rewarded frequently to start with particulalry.  If the tennis ball works then great use That for when you don't have time to go through exercises but it is just management and not actually teaching him to control himself which could be really worth while in real situatiuons rather than just in class.

I think teaching him and emergency recall byu useing the ennis ball is also a grat idea as if he gets to much then you can call him out of the situation.  If you do immediately that he starts to get too much then you won't risk back chaining and rewrading him for bullyish behaviour, and also do it at other times not just callinghim away when he gets too much so that you get a generalised response rather than one that he may think only is relevant when he is rough playing :-)