we had a puppy enquiry from a couple with a 10 month old baby. As it happens I dont have anything for them, but they asked my advice about having a pup and I gave it....basically saying i didnt think it was good timing. Well I got a load of verbal abuse back saying "what do you know you dont have a baby" or along those lines :( so now im just idly curious.....do those of you who have had kids, think that its a good time to get a pup???

I had two dogs before I had the baby, which worked out extremely well, but I wouldn't want to combine a newly-mobile baby with a new puppy! Far too much room for accidents to happen to both of them. I'd wait till the child was about 3 and marginally more rational before getting a puppy.

Nope.  A baby of 10 months needs constant attention and will do until it goes to school.  A new puppy needs the same. 
How does a person with one pair of hands, one pair of legs and one pair of eyes, rush a puppy out into the garden when they are in the middle of feeding/changing a baby?
Even if the child was 3 years old and feeding themselves, how can the responsible adult leave the child at the table or on the floor unattended and spend 10 minutes in the garden with the puppy until it pees?
I much prefer to home puppies to families once the children are at school.  I'm sure some will cope fine but that's not my choice for my puppies.

> Even if the child was 3 years old and feeding themselves, how can the responsible adult leave the child at the table or on the floor unattended and spend 10 minutes in the garden with the puppy until it pees?

Quite easily :) How do you think that people with more than one child manage ? :) As long as the house is child proof, leaving a child of that age should be no problem :) A younger child can be popped in a playpen.

But I agree wth the rest of your post :)

Daisy

Depends entirely on the person. I had new pups with each of my kids, got my first Malinois when my youngest child was 4 months old for instance, but I'm a dog person through and through. I found having a dog during pregnancy was ten times worse than when the baby had been born. So I don't worry too much about somebody who already HAS a baby and know what it is like, they should know if they have time or not, but I'd never sell to somebody pregnant with their first child, because they will NOT know how well they will cope or not. So much depends on what the baby is like. And there's nothing to say all walks have to be with a pram -what about dad, surely he's not gone from home 24 hours a day? (A SINGLE mother with a baby I don't think I'd sell to!) I had a few pram walks yes but usually took the dogs out when my husband was at home with the kids. We all need some time to ourselves when we have babies and for me, dog walking and training was it.

How do you think that people with more than one child manage ? :-) As long as the house is child proof, leaving a child should be no problem
But with 2 children, the adult doesn't usually need to go out of the room?  If the older child can't take themselves to the loo, then they'll use a potty? :)

PS  I've never needed to manage more than one child because I knew my limitations and the way that I wanted to bring her up! :)

I'm sure that you are going to have a wide range of replies here Sam. :)

10 months old is a time when the child is starting to get to its feet so a young puppy running around will only hinder this development. The child could quite easily get hurt by accident, then the dog would be blamed and needing rehomed NOW! At least some people will think so. I wouldn't sell to someone with a young child unless they convinced me that they could deal with both.

My youngest daughter was born 2 weeks after a litter and I sold all the pups only to get one back by the time it was 5 months old. It was hard work, even though I had another 5 dogs in the house. I certainly wouldn't want to go through that again.

> But with 2 children, the adult doesn't usually need to go out of the room

LOL :) :) What happens when the door bell rings, you need to fetch dirty washing from upstairs, you need to vacuum upstairs ? I most certainly didn't cart my small children everywhere with me :) :) And I don't believe that my children were ever put in any serious danger :) :) :) Something a mother learns quickly when baby number two arrives is that she has to be more relaxed about things :)

Daisy

I don't believe that my children were ever put in any serious danger

I never left my child unattended until I knew that she could be trusted to not be in any danger at all - that was quite a while. :)
And I wouldn't want one of my puppies not to be the priority either.

If they are the kind of people who resort to verbal abuse when asked a perfectly reasonable question I bet you're glad you didn't have a puppy available! :-)

> Something a mother learns quickly when baby number two arrives is that she has to be more relaxed about things :-)
>

Most definately!!
There s 14 months between my 2 boys. There is no way that the first child could have had constant supervision, it's simply a matter of being able to baby-proof an area so it's safe to leave a child while tending to the other child/cooking/cleaning/loo breaks etc :)

I got an adult rescue dog while I was pregnant with my first child. I didn't want the hassle of a puppy and a baby at the same time as it was my first baby. The adult dog was no trouble, the only thing I had problems with was walking the dog with the first child in a pushchair whilst I was heavily pregnant with the second baby - OH had to do the dog walks when he got in from work then.

A puppy & a baby is a workable thing, but it does depend on the person. A first time dog owner may have a bit of a shock and struggle once they realise a cute little puppy can be so much work in itself.

> I never left my child unattended until I knew that she could be trusted to not be in any danger at all

I think that would put you in the minority then :)

I didn't accompany my daughter when she did a parachute jump, thank goodness :) :) :)

Daisy

I only have two options when it comes to children and dogs and it takes a lot to sway me from those opinions.

1. If you plan for dogs and children to grow up together then the dog comes before the child is born. It is raised and given full attention and one to one throughout it's puppyhood and adolescents until it is an adult, the dog is then trained and rounded in personality and character. IMO extremely important when introducing a child. Once the dog is over 3+yrs IMO it is then ok to introduce a child and the two should grow up very happily together and be the very best of friends with full supervision of course.

Or:

2. You get a pup when your child is aged 7+ that is when a child is most likely to have got through their squealing, pulling, tasting and tugging stage and have the concept of other people's and animals feelings. Introducing a pup before that age I do not agree with the pup (a baby) is not going to get full attention to mould it's personality, the two babies (human and dog) play differently, so can hurt one another, understand things differently from body language to verbal noises so do not make good playmates and both need time and one to one particuarly the pup as it will mature quicker and parents are not going to put a pups needs before a child. (Quite rightly)

I know there are scenario's when everything is not as black and white as the above some children are more sensible, some pups aren't affected character wise at all by growing up with a toddler.

But, I strongly believe that every baby no matter what species should have every effort made to get the best from them and develope a well balanced character, children and puppies can be damaged character wise through things going wrong, many pups are ruined by being hurt emotionally, yelled at etc for jumping and nipping a child when they are just playing, as I guess also toddlers can become upset by pups.

Rather than risk either pup or child being damaged, I prefer to stick to a child being 7+ or a pup maturing to an adult before introduction.

1. If you plan for dogs and children to grow up together then the dog comes before the child is born.

And when the child turns out to be allergic or handicapped in any way so the dog can't possibly stay? A far worse scenario for a 3 year old dog than a young pup.

2. You get a pup when your child is aged 7+ that is when a child is most likely to have got through their squealing, pulling, tasting and tugging stage and have the concept of other people's and animals feelings.

Even the scientists now say children born into a household of dogs are less likely to become allergic, they are far more likely to develop an allergy if a pet is acquired after they are something like 3 years old. I'd also much more trust a child that has had animals around them pretty much from day one, than one that gets a dog in the family aged 7 -that would be a nightmare scenario to me. Nothing worse than kids that don't know how to deal with dogs or other animals. Two examples from when my own kids were little, my oldest was about 6:

1. Friend of my daughter is visiting, wants to go home, big Golden Retriever is asleep in front of the door. We tell him "It's okay, just tell him "off" and he will move". Child says "Please dog, move!" Dog totally confused LOL.

2. Other friend of my daughter visits when we have two new kittens. One kitten accidentally gets its claws stuck in my daughter's jumper, so the friend HITS it in the face. Now there was a child not used to being around animals. She never came to visit again -ever.

It's like puppies -easier to teach a young one how to behave than an older one that has had time to develop bad habits. :)

I think that would put you in the minority then :-)
I agree with you Daisy. :)  And I expect my puppies to be treated the same.

> And I expect my puppies to be treated the same

:) :) :)

Daisy

>I never left my child unattended until I knew that she could be trusted to not be in any danger at all

My child's nearly 24 and still gets into potentially dangerous situations ... ;-)

I do agree with you on that one, you can always tell a child which has not been around animals.

But they soon learn when they get one, the difference IMO though is that an older child understands instruction better instead of just acting on instinct, parents can tell a child how to behave, how to care for an animal. Children not allowed a pup until 7+ can still have lots of contact with family, friends and neighbours dogs it is usually a desire of an older child to want a pet to join the family which prompts a lot of people to be looking for pups.

The major problems, perhaps also with the girl with your poor kitten there (bless the wee thing) is when the parents have not had animals, I find adults who have never grown up with animals a real stumbling block for the way their children behave with them, IME they seem cut off from the fact that animals have feelings. That may just be the few I have met though.

Friend of my daughter is visiting, wants to go home, big Golden Retriever is asleep in front of the door. We tell him "It's okay, just tell him "off" and he will move". Child says "Please dog, move!" Dog totally confused LOL.

Have to admit, that made me smile, my first thoughts are what a lovely polite girl, what a sweetie. Probably won't make a dog trainer though. :-D

It's all just personal choice of each breeder though who they wish their pups placed with, there are many success stories either way. I don't frown on people who have toddlers and pups together, each to their own, it's just my personal choice when having a litter.

MarrianneB wrote (A SINGLE mother with a baby I don't think I'd sell to!)

One of the first things i did when my husband left me, while I was pregnant, and with another 2 children under 5 was go and get a puppy.
I hadn't been able to have one while I was married as he didn't like dogs.
I managed walks every day, short ones  while heavily pregnant and puppy was young. After the baby was born and my dog needed longer ones I had baby in a sling on my front, Toddler in the pushchair and 5 year old walking.
I decided that it would be a good time to get a puppy as I would be at home with the children all day as they were young so had time for a puppy as well. Once the children started school I could start work and the dog would be older and able to cope with being left for longer periods. In actual fact I ended up with 2 pupppies fairly close to gether as a friend had a pup that her son developed a serious allergy to so I had him too.
It was hard work at times but if a person really wants something then they will do what is necessary to make it work.
I do not think I would have coped with the acrimonious divorce and the stress of raising 3 children on my own without the dogs, they certainly helped keep me sane.

> My child's nearly 24 and still gets into potentially dangerous situations

LOL mine too...... and my mother still thinks I can not cross the road!!

I waited until my youngest was 3 before I got my first dog. What I thought was best for me... I know my limitations!

I think it depends entirely on each person and their circumstances, I think it is a shame if everyone is tarred with the same brush.

My mum had 1 dog when i was born (and 2 other children 5 and 2 1/2), unfortunately he died while young and when I was 2 she got her first GSD, a couple years later another GSD followed and then another.  My mum was very into training and competed in obedience and I followed in her footsteps.  All 3 of us were brought up to respect the dogs, to help train, feed, groom and walk them.  There are many photo's of me aged 2 and up training the dogs and at 4/5 years old somebody at the obedience class gave me their Sheltie to handle....I haven't looked back and my life revolves around my dogs.

If I were to have children they would arrive into a dog filled world, I wouldn't worry too much how old my dogs were at the time as I have known nothing other than being around dogs and training them. 

I have to say though that unless it was absolutely exceptional circumstances I would not buy in a new pup if I was just about to have a child or had a very young baby.

No i personally don't think it's a good idea , but if they are used to having dogs and keeping them separate from the child then maybe they will be OK . Is this their first dog or is it to replace a recently departed one ?

The other thing to consider is that before having kids many people work full time so don't think it is fair to have a dog , so giving up work or going part-time may seem like a good time .

I had my first dog when my daughter was 14 months.  Planned from the time she was about 10 months.

I then had a baby 2 1/2 years alter and Had my second dog as a pup when he was 14 months and the older one was 4, by which time I was a lone parent.

I think the breeder of the second one probably appreciated that I had kept the first dog through thick and thin, so was prepared to let em have my pup.

Also - I guess - you have the "Marley & Me" syndrome... Young couple, get a dog, and in the words of the author, 'practice' for looking after a living being for a woman who kills houseplants.

Then you have a lot of health visitors and midwives who 'expect' the pregnant woman to get rid of animals before the baby is born.... Bit of an uphill battle in that case. Have seen friends go through that and although I have many regrets on not being able to 'have a litter' myself, at least I've never been forced to make a choice.

> I think it is a shame if everyone is tarred with the same brush.
>
>

I think that, in the first instance you have little choice, how can we get to know everyone so well that we overlook any ( possible) shortcomings they may have. There are exceptions of course but these are just that...exceptions!

People who regularly contribute to this forum may not be your average dog owner . We show/work/breed/ dogs often in multiples and they are our hobby, our sport, our life...this is seldom shared by Mr and Mrs average. If we have babies, we still cope with our dogs - our partners leave, we still do everything to cope...but we are not the norm..( notice I didn't say we are not normal) So how we've coped may not be the same for Joe Bloggs.

*NO*

Although it's the best part of 20 years ago that my youngest was born, even though I had experience to know what was coming, there is no getting round the "camping out" lifestyle that comes with a new baby, ad hoc meals, taking an hour to get out of the house with everything you need...how could it be fair to expect a puppy to thrive on attention that is already in very heavy demand by a baby? I missed having a dog dreadfully for 16 years because I couldn't see how as a lone (working) parent I could possibly give a dog what's needed. Thankfully my life has changed (no offence to my sons) and now I enjoy my life with three dogs.

lol I was waiting for someone to say that. My 22 year old son makes an (unpaid) career out of it, and could probably cut a great deal with my hairdresser for speeding up the grey!

> It was hard work at times but if a person really wants something then they will do what is necessary to make it work.
>

:-)  :-)

The difference between a dog person and a dog owner!  :-)

I have a 10 month old baby at the moment ......... and ive just taken on a 10 month old rescue dog, who is very high energy with an active brain and who has never lived in a house before   My house is pretty baby proof so I can quite happily go into the garden with my new boy and leave the little one watching from the other side of the baby gate.  I already have my two Setters who are 5 and 6, one isnt overly keen on her so im always aware of where she is and where the dogs are, we have a good baby gate system and he is shut away if im not on hand to keep an eye out. 

I never dreamed I would be allowed a rescue dog with a baby but I thought it was worth a try, the reason I was allowed to have him was because I knew dogs, I want him for agility/canix/bikejoring, and I have done enough research on the breed to know that he needs loads of exercise and mental stimulation.  Before I had the little one I was working full time so wouldnt have time for a breed such as this now I can integrate looking after baby with training and exercising the dog.  I take all 3 dogs (with little on in back pack carrier) for a morning walk then late morning I take the new dog plus baby to the park for socialising and swings then little one falls asleep on the way home so we have a good half an hour of training in the garden before she wakes up. Then afternoons we go out again, often meeting up with others for group walks.  If I want to go running/biking I either go early morning before OH and baby are awake or I wait for OH to get home from work ... occasionally I can be seen out running pushing little one in the buggy ....  ;)

I think if you are a dog person you know what to expect, if you get a puppy you expect its going to pee in the house and therefore if you also have a crawling baby at some point that baby is going to crawl through a puddle ...... a non doggy person would freak at that and the puppy would be rehomed.  I think you have to judge the individual, thankfully the rescue I got my new dog from was a small rescue who assessed each person as an individual, therefore they took into account my doggy experience and the fact that I knew I would have time for another dog as well as looking after my baby.

>Then you have a lot of health visitors and midwives who 'expect' the pregnant woman to get rid of animals before the baby is born.... Bit of an uphill battle in that case.

I never had that problem, although i did shut the dogs away when the health visitor came but only because they liked to get involved with everything !

>So how we've coped may not be the same for Joe Bloggs.

I agree, my friend took on a 15 week old pup when her little boy was about 2 but the pup kept nipping him so she rehomed him

>there is no getting round the "camping out" lifestyle that comes with a new baby

this made me laugh ..... you should see the amount of stuff I have to take to a dog show these days, I have to take so much baby stuff that ive whittled the dogs stuff down to a brush, blanket and small bowl ;)

lol we live up a very steep hill about a mile out of town and as soon as my older son could walk the shopping went in the pushchair and we both pushed it uphill.

I was brougt up with all kinds of animals,my parents would not let us torment and chase our pets,we were told firmly NO.Somtimes  parents are not stict enough and let ther children pull and tug at there pets , Julia whom I get my labs from will not let him puppies go to homes were ther are children under 5 years or to people who  are out all day at work

Sheila

We show/work/breed/ dogs often in multiples and they are our hobby, our sport, our life...this is seldom shared by Mr and Mrs average. If we have babies, we still cope with our dogs - our partners leave, we still do everything to cope...but we are not the norm..( notice I didn't say we are not normal) So how we've coped may not be the same for Joe Bloggs.

That is an excellent evaluation, your absolutely right. :-)

> I never had that problem, although i did shut the dogs away when the health visitor came but only because they liked to get involved with everything

I had to lock my little queen away when the health visitor/ mid wives came... She never forgave them for making the babies cry, she guarded my babies like they were her own! One of the best places to keep a look out was the tray under the pram she came on a few walks with us curled under there !

Yes totally agree Toolz, I do forget sometimes that I do a lot more with my dogs than your average owner who has one or 2 at home.  I run my own training school, show, work and train my dogs in Agility so they come as a very high priority to me.

I get so frustrated when I see people readily rehome their dogs due to moving house, having a baby etc.

If and when I have a litter I would think very carefully about homing a pup with very young children but would not rule it out if it was the right home.

I agree it really does depend on the actual couple and what their experience is but a 10 month old baby is probably only just about crawling and not that mobile yet. Wait a few more months and that baby will probably be a nightmare, in to cupboards, and absoloutely everything and the last thing a new parent would need is a puppy to add to the chaos. We have just had a puppy and my youngest (4th child) is 20 months, yes it's hard at times but after having 4 kids, already have a gundog (puppy long before kids came), home all the time, not exactly house proud and live in the middle of the countryside I feel that I am quite able to cope now (but when my first was 10 months old, the last thing I would have wanted is a mad puppy around the house too!).
I think depending on their circumstances you were wise to advise them against having a puppy at the moment.

>Then you have a lot of health visitors and midwives who 'expect' the pregnant woman to get rid of animals before the baby is born....

Tell me about it :-) My health visitor was horrified that we had 6 dogs when my 3rd child was born ;-p She expected me to get rid of the dogs as they were 'unhealthy'. :-( She was told that as the dogs had been planned, but the baby wasn't maybe I should rehome the baby instead :-D I can't repeat what her words were on this forum, but needless to say she never came back :-) I kept the baby and the dogs and managed to walk all 6 in local woods along with the baby in a buggy.

My health visitor was terrified of dogs and also horrified that I had no intention of 'getting rid' when the baby arrived. They soon learned to walk very nicely, one on either side of the pram, till we got to the fields where the baby had to be firmly strapped in to make sure he wasn't bounced out going over the rough ground!

> I'd also much more trust a child that has had animals around them pretty much from day one, than one that gets a dog in the family aged 7 -that would be a nightmare scenario to me. Nothing worse than kids that don't know how to deal with dogs or other animals.

My firend has a 5 yr old girl, they have no dog of thier own and no dogs in the family. I dread her visiting as (despite being able to understand instuctions from us adutls), she does not understand that when Buster puts his nose towards her he is only sniffing her, not trying to bite her, it has taken months to persuade her that when he looks at her he is just looking, not sizing her up for dinner :( I know Buster is rather large, but we meet plenty of kids in the street that are used to dogs (have them at home or family have dogs) and they are great around Buster.

My boys grew up with a dog in the house and they have always been great around dogs, as children they still obviously need to be watched and sometimes reminded of things, but they understand the way dogs are in a way that only comes from spending so much time around them.

> Friend of my daughter is visiting, wants to go home, big Golden Retriever is asleep in front of the door. We tell him "It's okay, just tell him "off" and he will move". Child says "Please dog, move!" Dog totally confused LOL.

Sadly, this is the way my mum is. Unfortunately there are adults that think dogs understand the entire English language too :( It doesn't matter how many times I tell her Buster can't understand, she'll insist on barking full sentances at him ie, "Buster pack it in!!Don't sniff my bum, you'll cover me in slobber, get out of it" , I've told her I have not taught him those words - HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND but it just doesn't penetrate

When my youngest was born I had 12 GSD's 5 in the house and the rest in kennels, There was no question of not coping...I just had to. She grew up around them and learned to walk holding on to Tzars collar! I used to put her in her buggy and park her in one run while I cleaned/trained/groomed the dogs, she spent a huge part of her days when tiny sleeping in a (covered) dog run!! Ooops no health visitors on here I hope?  and she liked nothing more than to be in a sling and off on dog walks...that child had so much fresh air :) She is a true dog lover now and is very confident around them and with 2 1/2 children of her own has her dog too.
I let a puppy go two years ago to a young couple with a 6 month old baby, as I got to know them through numerous pre puppy visits (They live close) I just knew they would cope and cope they have very well and now have two children. The dog and the kids are insepperable so it can work but you need to do a lot of extra vetting to be sure.
Aileen

brilliant LindyLou :D

I agree with merlot.  The couple I had over yesterday vetting for a friend, they have two children 2 and 5 so Mum home.

the girl especially was very sensible took on board exactly what I told her about how I managed the puppy/baby combination, stressing dog and child interaction was for quiet time only, and always under strict supervising.

Im with you Daisey I was able to move around with two kids without them tied to me. I also allowed them in the kitchen, taught them how to crawl up and down stairs ect..

I also didnt loose, kill or maim either son. But Im a generation above that now and still think that a bit of exploration did them no harm. They also slept alone all night!! so saying you do not leave them alone isnt quite right is it?

Baby one I changed every time he dribbled, baby No 2 I invester in bibs with sleeves and changed that not his whole wardrobe! I alsop stopped washing his hair every day as the midwife said it was ok to let him get a bit dirty! I thinbk its overkill now a days and thank goodness my niece with three 6,3 & 1 does not bleach the whole house and they have a staffie and I have never seen more lovely healthy kids even down to shareing dog food and bickie pegs!!

>even down to shareing dog food and bickie pegs!!

Bonios are a wonderful shape for teething babies to hold and gnaw. (Avoid the charcoal ones because the black dribble isn't attractive!)

I remeber the charcoal ones and my kids sharing dog chockkie drops one for Shera one for Ben. No real health problems apart from the odd cold and chicken pox. Kids now a days are bought up in sterile conditions and go down with upset tummies, mine had cast iron guts!!

Im not saying let them loose in a cow filed but dirt is ok and so is training your kids to be safe, Ben could get up and down stairs at about 6 months. Sam a bit later as he had a club foot so had to wear boots on one foot and it put him off balance.

Katie's three look so lovely but still share biscuits with my dogs.

>Ben could get up and down stairs at about 6 months.

As soon as my boy was mobile I started teaching him how to go up and downstairs on his bottom, so that could do it on his own. It's such a relief when you know they're both independent and safe. :-)

Yep and I taught them to cut their dinner at about 2 or 3, I did have locks on the cupboard under the sink and hooks on top doors to keep them in! but little else really and top locks on gates as we lived on a busy road, you had to reach over the gate to unlock it about 5' tall but they played in the gerden and I looked out of the window. In those days it was accepted, as was putting them outside with a net against bees and cats to get some air, and laying them on their face! They all survived, so did we. Mind you never ever a dummy and I breast fed so they went from me to a tommy tipee cup no bottles ever.

I didn't grow up with dogs, and though I know loads of people who have, I do worry so much about the possible problems of kids with dogs, that I wouldn't sell to anyone with kids under 7 or thereabouts. One of the possible homes for my litter 2 years ago got rejected in the end because they planned to move to New York the following year and start a family. I could just imagine my puppy as a year old dog shut in an apartment 15 floors up all day with a screaming baby and mum who had no time for the dog! In the end luckily they both went to older couples, one childless and one with grown up children who now come to visit the dog rather than the parents! :-)