Following on from my previous post (What influences your choice of dog food?) I'd be interested to know what you think is a reasonable price to pay for a large bag (12-15kg) of dry food:

What are you currently paying for a large bag of food?
a. £0 - £10
b. £10 - £20
c. £20 - £30
d. £30 - £40
e. £40 - £50
f. £50 - £60
g. £60+

What would you be prepared to pay for a UK manufactured, top-quality food (meat-based (70%+), no artificial flavours, colours or preservatives etc)?
a. £0 - £10
b. £10 - £20
c. £20 - £30
d. £30 - £40
e. £40 - £50
f. £50 - £60
g. £60+

I normally pay between £20-£40 although when my youngster was on Orijen it was more than that.  The boys are on AG which is about £25 per bag under the breeder scheme.

Currently paying a, previously d and prior to that e.

We moved from e to d, when the number of woofs increased to 3, and then our financial circumstances changed drastically so were forced to look to change. Luckily we have found a food that suits all 3 tummies, even the beastie who had awful problems when he first came our way.

What I'd be prepared to pay differs drastically to what I am able to pay, so unfortunately at the moment it's that which dictates things.

T

I pay e and would probably go as far as f if i had to but as I only have the one dog the food lasts a long time.  I think it is reasonable as long as the ingredients are quality as I would not pay the same for a bag full of fillers.

>What are you currently paying for a large bag of food?

b. £15 - £20. It'll last for ages now there's only one dog eating it. :-(

>What would you be prepared to pay for a UK manufactured, top-quality food (meat-based (70%+), no artificial flavours, colours or preservatives etc)?

It would depend on the meat that was used. If it was even 100% red meat I wouldn't buy it at all. If it was 70% white fish (no trace of oily fish guaranteed) then I'd pay £40 - £50.

A 'bag of fillers' is safer for my dog than every premium dog food currently available, as far as I know.

I currently pay about £25 a bag since I joined the breeders club with Arden Grange. I was paying abit more for it before I joined. Before I switched them to AG I was feeding them JWB and paying about £45 a bag. I would happily go back up to that amount and maybe a bit more for a decent food although all mine are looking fantastic on AG.

I currently pay £40-50 for food for each dog.

My rottie eats orijen and a bag lasts approx 3 weeks
My staff eats Salters and a bag last approx 8 weeks

If I could get a UK version of grain free I would pay £50 a bag for it - although it should feasibly be significantly cheaper as I believe many of the associated costs are linked to transporting food to theh UK.  I am aware of people on US based forums who pay $50 for a bag of Origen.  Are you planning to create one Pedlee and are testing the market? ;)

I think it depends on the size of the dog/s. For my 2 kg dog obviously cost is not an issue at all.For my 12kg dogs the cost per bag is g(but they get raw as well).For my 24kg dog its b (a low phosphorus food plus tripe).I might find it difficult to pay price g for him every 5 weeks but as it happens he does better on a cheaper food anyway because of his kidneys.
I'd quite happily pay top price for a really good food.A cold pressed food with better ingredients than the ones on Zooplus would be worth paying for-as would a raw air dried jerky type food such as Ziwipeak.

Heck, I didn't even know dog food went up to g!!
I have 2 dogs on b (they are so kind) and 3 on b.
My breeder friend feeds all her 10 dogs on a ... and I really cannot knock their health or condition.
I do believe that price doesn't necessarily mean quality, and vice verse, when it comes down to it, it's what the dogs eat and are fit and healthy on.

I pay £34.50 for a 15kg bag of dry food that fits the description you give. I'm not sure how they calculate their 'loyalty discount' but suffice it to say it comes in very handy when things get tight! I would like to say that I wouldn't mind paying more, but there is quite a good choice of excellent foods at this level, so we shouldn't need to pay more.

By UK version of grain free do you mean made here? at the moment I believe all processed foods made here, by that I mean dry food, have ingredients from eastern Europe or far east -mainly grain and rice. Some import lamb from New Zealand. poultry and preservatives from Europe.
Even Lily's Kitchen have their canned food made in Europe.

I have searched and no one makes a food with UK ingredients - totally- and made and packed here!
Cost and supply is the issue.

I may have missed a food, let me know!

>By UK version of grain free do you mean made here?

Yes. :-)

>dry food, have ingredients from eastern Europe or far east -mainly grain and rice.

To be fair, that's obvious; Britain isn't famed for its paddy fields! :-D However the meat used in the ones manufactured here, even if imported, must be from animals that were fit for human consumption. That's not always the case in overseas-manufactured food.

For the 2 with dodgy tums d (should be more like e but buy in bulk with a friend) the remaining 6 dogs with cast irons tums a or b.
Not sure if I would  chance changing the Inflammatory bowel disease 1 or the runny bums 1 as they are good with JWB, however would always look at a better choice for the other 6.

http://www.salterspetfood.com/maintenance.html  Obviously some of the ingredients in this weren't cultivated locally but I think it is made in the UK as the producers are based in Suffolk.  I am generally happy with the use of human grade products in it but would prefer if it was grain free.

For adult maintenance I feed a complete food from the bracket a, but that is just a base with various raw additives (haven't got guts or freezer space to turn completely raw). For puppies and in whelp/lactating bitches bracket d.  I have in the past used food from bracket g (in a rapidly growing giant male who looked like he might go down on his pasterns) but that was in special circumstances.

I would not particularly pay any more for food produced in UK.  I appreciate price goes up with the higher meat content, and it is a convenience, but I'd rather give meat via a well balanced, mainly raw diet.

Now feeding a food in band c. however on the pet market retails at band e. Prior to this fed a band f food.

I don't particularly mind where the food is manufactured, rather focusing on the ingredients.

> Are you planning to create one Pedlee and are testing the market?

Funny you should ask that! Possibly, would be the answer.

I am certainly looking into it to see if it is a viable option. My dogs are currently acting as guinea pigs, with various types of food being trialled (cold-pressed [Markus-Mühle], Applaws [75% meat UK-made food], and will be trying air-dried ZiwiPeak when it becomes available). I can't find anyone in the UK that produces cold-pressed or air-dried food, so they probably won't be an option, although I think that may be the way to go, as I can't afford to set up a complete production system. But I really can't see why something couldn't be produced in this country and cost less than something like Orijen with all it's inherent import costs. We shall see!

It's interesting to see what people think. I certainly wouldn't pay good money for a bag full of grain and although dogs may "look" well on some of these foods I'd wonder about the long-term implications and what's going on inside that we can't see. I do believe that a carnivore is meant to eat meat.

>a bag full of grain and although dogs may "look" well on some of these foods I'd wonder about the long-term implications and what's going on inside that we can't see.

In my experience they live to be 14 or 15 with no discernable problems other than the general wear and tear of age.

That's the same sort of comparison really as people that smoke, drink alcohol and eat rubbish living to 90+. They probably shouldn't, but often do! Dally's are probably a slightly different kettle of fish to "most'" breeds on what you would feed and are probably the one instance that a breed specific diet would be needed. I can't see that most breeds require vastly different diets or different age groups for that matter.

If there's no concrete evidence that 'grains' cause health problems, and dogs (pedigrees, crossbreeds and mongrels) for very many decades have generally lived long, healthy lives eating food containing them (indeed, often choosing to eat them fresh in the field) I see no logical reason to think that they should suddenly start causing problems.

To be honest I think comparing complete foods is like comparing ready-meals. M&S ones are possibly rather better than Tesco value ones, but none are as good as preparing your own from fresh ingredients. Likewise the expensive meat-based dog completes are possibly better than the cheaper grain-based ones, but again, none are as good as fresh food.

Laughing dog used to do a 'baked' complete rather than extruded.
Sadly they went under and were acquired by fold hill who also do a baked complete dog food.

Know that they did a tripe variety, a lamb variety and a chicken variety and were thinking of a salmon variety.
Mine liked the tripe and the lamb variety.

Category C for adults and D for puppies and in whelp lactating bitches, if I want to feed more costly food I would give more raw which is often given as an extra.

I still have the old fashioned view that the dogs should get what is left after people have been fed and because in the western world we get fussier and fussier about which parts of animals we find acceptable/palatable it gives quite a lot for the dogs, (that means still fit for human consuption), more than ever before.

I find it unacceptable to pay more for the dogs food (price per pound of raw ingredients) than my own.

I think Pointers food was baked (or may have been their biscuit).

>I find it unacceptable to pay more for the dogs food (price per pound of raw ingredients) than my own.

Ditto. The meat element in dog food should be the parts of the animal that we choose not to eat ourselves. That way none of the slaughtered animal is wasted, because that would be morally indefensible.

Quite and it is why my Dad collects all their household scraps and puts them in containers in his freezer to save for my woofers, who love their granddad specials.

Our council has provided bins for the recycling of food waste, now very little goes in there except some vegetable matter that is unsuitable for the dogs, and if I had chickens or Rabbits there probably would be no waste at all, except for the odd spoiled item.

> To be honest I think comparing complete foods is like comparing ready-meals. M&S ones are possibly rather better than Tesco value ones, but none are as good as preparing your own from fresh ingredients. Likewise the expensive meat-based dog completes are possibly better than the cheaper grain-based ones, but again, none are as good as fresh food.

I couldn't agree more, I very rarely have a ready-meal myself.

I also feed my dogs a mainly raw diet, but do like to add a bit of complete dry and sometimes a wet food for variety and to ensure they are getting everything they require in vitamins and minerals etc.

Complete foods are really for convenience and if I was only feeding a dry complete, for whatever reason, I'd want it to be mainly meat, as nature intended.

Grains are one of the more common allergens to dogs, people just often aren't aware of it and put regular upset tums or itchyness down to, just normal doggyness when it's not.  I am a bit unlucky with my lot but 3 of them are allergic to rice and wheat gluten.  I know of several dogs that re allergic to grains.  Allergies can have a big impact on dogs, far greater than people seem to be aware, they can affect things form coat to lethargy to lack of appetite to reactiveness.

My Dobe has IBD caused we think at the moment by allergies, this was only picked up because I asked for specific bloods to be done because I knew something wa wrong but I'm pretty sure things like this are often over looked.  IBS type ilness ion dogs is all to common but it is over looked and I think food is very relevant 0 yes IBD isn'y going to affect life span, doesn't meant the dog is as healthy as it could be though or feeling as well as it could.

Totally agree with you Karen.

A friend of mine has a BC which goes through phases of constantly nibbling her legs. She's OK for a week then has a bout of it. OK again, then more nibbling. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was down to diet (she's fed Bakers), but her owner thinks it's just one of those things and does nothing about it.

Dogs really aren't a species designed to eat lots of grain.

> Dogs really aren't a species designed to eat lots of grain

Mine have a small amount of grain with their raw food - have done for years. They never have upset stomachs - but I put this down to having a wide variety of raw food so their stomachs are used to dealing with everything :) Maybe dogs that are fed on just kibble are more susceptible to stomach problems ?? I've nothing to back this up - just a gut feeling :)

Daisy

I still have the old fashioned view that the dogs should get what is left after people have been fed and because in the western world we get fussier and fussier about which parts of animals we find acceptable/palatable it gives quite a lot for the dogs, (that means still fit for human consuption), more than ever before.
I'm now 70 and was born into a house full of dogs as my parents were "doggie people" keeping mainly cockers ( not breeding) and remember all the dogs being fed just mixer biscuits with oxo gravy and any household scraps left from the plates, sometimes only mixer and oxo when dinner was all eaten by us kids. The dogs all slept on a mat in the kitchen (no fancy fleecy special beds like my lot now) and I can't remember any sick animals and they all seemed to live until ripe old age with very happy country lives. Not saying that this is the best way for dogs today, but it was good for dogs in those days. I must admit that I sometimes wonder if we are going overboard on the basic needs of a dog, whether diet,  vet treatment that may not be needed sometimes, and general living conditions. And I am one of the worst culprits making sure that my lot have the best that I can afford. Do we pamper too much?

>Do we pamper too much?

There's certainly a danger of it, and it's not to the benefit of the dogs.

> Mine have a small amount of grain with their raw food - have done for years.

A small amount is one thing, feeding a diet that is predominately grain is entirely different.

> A small amount is one thing, feeding a diet that is predominately grain is entirely different

Depends what you mean by small :) They get half a cup of mixer with some meals with their raw meat etc. Other times they get left over rice (older dog used to get rice with every meal for a couple of years) or pasta. They get half a bonio each at lunchtime after their walk. They are medium size dogs - 19-21 kg - not the same breed. Older dog stole a dozen mince pies once, many years ago - had no affect on him .. :) :) :)

Daisy

If you look at some foods that are on sale the meat content is as low as 4%, that is less than the average moisture content in dry food.  this would mean the dog is getting around 80% grain.

I tend to go for a food with at least 25% meat meal by dry weight (even fresh meat is 70% water).

Do we pamper too much?

There's certainly a danger of it, and it's not to the benefit of the dogs.

I really don't think when it comes to veterinary care and general health which includes diet, exercise and adressing appropriate needs of dogs that you can pamper to much and I fail to see how taking the best care you can and giving dogs the best diet you can, can not be to the benefit of the dogs.

Now that my dogs have had their diets tailored, which was aided by allergy tests, to what they need they have far less in the way of health problems, by health problems I mean IBD under control (which causes pain and upset so increases stress and reactiveness) and I mean much less itching than before though some of the allergies are environmental so immunotherapy is also used.  I certainly don't see it as pampering to use up to date advances in medicine and knowledge about various foods and the effects they can have to make sure that my dogs feel and are as well as they can be.  If it does count as pampering then I'm ok with that - personally I wish people would pamper a lot more when it comes to understanding about good nutrition and health for their dogs, and I think that would be to the benefit of dogs not the other way around :-)

>I really don't think when it comes to veterinary care and general health which includes diet, exercise and adressing appropriate needs of dogs that you can pamper to much

Would you (personally) do the same for a cow or a sheep? If not, why not?

There is a great danger in treating a dog (nowadays being primarily a companion animal) the same as we would our own young. It doesn't do either species any favours.

I feed raw and find I do not need to give either dry or wet food to ensure that my dogs get the correct vitamins and minerals.

I you do not know how to provide you dog with the correct vitamins and minerals with araw diet perhaps you should not be feeding raw at all or doing some more research?

I certainly agree with some of the other posts in that my dogs can eat extremely wellon food that we choose not to consume by choice in the UK.

> I you do not know how to provide you dog with the correct vitamins and minerals with araw diet perhaps you should not be feeding raw at all or doing some more research?

I feel more than confident enough, and have done plenty of research into raw feeding, but choose to feed a combination now (have fed totally raw in the past), therefore hopefully covering all avenues - it suits me and my dogs.

Mine were raised on Beta puppy, so just naturally graduated onto adult. I pay £16.75 plus VAT for a 20kg sack

Any particular reason why a cow or a sheep - I do the same for my cats and have for my horse in the past, but yes if I owned a cow or a sheep (which I wouldn't) then I would care for them the very best way I could making sure they had the best of veterinary care and an appropriate diet and would make sure they had what they needed to be content and happy in terms of environmental stimulation.

I really don't see though what this has to do or anything in this thread has to do with treating animlas like our own young - Could you explain please what you mean about it not doing either species any favours, we are talking about health and diet and the effects it can have here, not about dressing dogs up for example!  If you means the level of care given can be comparitivelty equal to that people may give their young then it's hardly detrimental to either species.  Diet can have a huge impact on health and behaviour and I think it can only be a good thing that more research is being done into it and new advances are being made all the time!

I think that what is meant is that do we sometimes spend too much time and money looking in great detail to every ingredient that passes our dogs lips. Our dogs survive in a healthy life with a dog food costing £16 as opposed to £50. It makes us feel better to know the ingredients but in the big scheme of things, for most dogs it really doesn't make any difference. You can spend a fortune on their food and they will still go out and eat rabbit poo and dread to think what else in the countryside. You give them sparkly clean water and yet they drink from the muddiest puddle they can find etc. As much as we love them to bits, they are still dogs and have dogs instincts and as long as they have a regular meal and love they are happy. Re the mention of vets, yes of course we have wonderful advancement in treatments, but I'm sure we all have vets bills that we just feel were not necessary. If an animal is poorly then I am first in the queue at the vets door whatever the cost, but begrudge having to pay a full consultation fee every 3 months just to get a repeat prescription for my GSD as she is on medication for the rest of her life. This is my opinion and have no wish to start a war on this forum.
ps. I also have sheep and goats and horses ( not a cow yet )

>I think that what is meant is that do we sometimes spend too much time and money looking in great detail to every ingredient that passes our dogs lips.

Exactly. It's rather like saying that a cow should only be fed a particular variety of grass and that allowing other varieties to grow in their fields is somehow 'not giving them the best'.

I often wonder why people choose to worry so much about details. Doesn't it take away some of the pleasure in having the dog in the first place?

> Exactly. It's rather like saying that a cow should only be fed a particular variety of grass and that allowing other varieties to grow in their fields is somehow 'not giving them the best'.
>

Cows are herbivorous - didn't do their health much good when they started to get rendered down sheep.

Dogs Carnivorous/scavengers - just have to question what a high percentage of cereal in their food does day after day.

This is my opinion and have no wish to start a war on this forum.

I appreaciate that's your opinion and it's not starting a war for me to disagree :-)

I think that what is meant is that do we sometimes spend too much time and money looking in great detail to every ingredient that passes our dogs lips. Our dogs survive in a healthy life with a dog food costing £16 as opposed to £50.

I think that's really not the case though, there are far fewer people that worry about every ingredient that thier dogs eat than those who don't give it more than a pasing consideration based on price and a quick recomendation or some advertising.  I need to think about the ingredients that is in my dogs food if I don't want them to itch, one of them to the point of sores, or to have upset tummies (IBD is fairly serious and causes pain) the other just gets uncomfortalbe as in itchy.  This has nothing what so ever to do with price either, I can feed my three dogs medium/large dogs, (barring treats) for about the same as the price of a bag and a half of Bakers each month so quality and what is good for my guys health really doesn't have to mean expensive.

I see dogs with regards to behaviour problems every day as it's my job and I would say that probably about 30% of the behavioural and some training issues are affected by diet, either because the diet doesn't suit them or because it is causing some kind of health related problem that is then affecting behaviour.

You can spend a fortune on their food and they will still go out and eat rabbit poo and dread to think what else in the countryside. You give them sparkly clean water and yet they drink from the muddiest puddle they can find etc. As much as we love them to bits, they are still dogs and have dogs instincts and as long as they have a regular meal and love they are happy.

Yes but there are some things you can't control what we feed them is something we can control, and as it goes, the eating of some rabbit poo has not affected my dogs problems so am quite happy for them to do it :-)  I'm sorry but it's not fact that as long as they have a regular meal and some love they are happy, it just isn't quite that simple on so many levels.  A firned of mines dogs stayed was itching more than I thought was normal and mentioned it to her and she said she though it was just normal doggies itching - some time passed and if anything it had got worse and he also had a bit of an odour to him.  Finally they took him to the vets and had tests done and he was allergic to storgage mites as well as a coule of ingerdients in the diets he was having.  Was he ok before, yes, is he happier and more comfortable now - most definitely!

Honestly I am lucky with my vets, I've not been charged for something I don't think is necessary and my vet is happy for me to question and suggest so I really don't think I would ever worry about that.

ps, I had a goat as kid as well, my sister worked at a vets and someone had brought it in to be PTS and she couldn't hold it to be done so she brought it home - it killed my Dads garden :-D

>Cows are herbivorous

Yes - but grass is grass. Rye grass or timothy grass - it's not going to make any difference to the cow! The people who worry that there might be chicken feet in the dog food (a delicacy for humans in some parts of the world) instead of chicken breast are the ones who taking things to unhealthy extremes. I sometimes wonder if they're not in danger of developing Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy.

> Yes - but grass is grass. Rye grass or timothy grass - it's not going to make any difference to the cow! The people who worry that there might be chicken feet in the dog food

I agree to a certain degree but cowes are now contained, do not have the freedom to pick and choose what they eat and I'm certain they get suppliments! Likewise with dogs, I don't realy mind what part of the meat content is what as long, as it has had decent standard of welfare during it's life and preferably in this country. It's the fillers I have concerns about, especially when fed day after day. Why can bone not replace some of these and I don't mean as powdered meal?

> Yes - but grass is grass.

If you look at it that way, yes I'd agree. But a dog is basically a meat-eater, it has evolved to eat meat, so it would seem logical to feed it a diet high in meat, whether it be raw, cooked, processed or whatever. I have no problem with using what we as humans would find undesirable, such as lungs, spleens, tongues etc., but these are still meat proteins NOT cereal proteins, which dogs find more difficult to utilize. They will get some nutrition from cereals, but it isn't species appropriate and it certainly isn't appropriate to feed a diet only containing 4% meat as some of the lower quality diets do.

Given a choice do you think a dog would choose to eat a bowl of rice, wheat, corn or a bowl of meat?

>I have no problem with using what we as humans would find undesirable, such as lungs, spleens, tongues etc.,

Tongue is delicious ...

>Given a choice do you think a dog would choose to eat a bowl of rice, wheat, corn or a bowl of meat?

It depends. Today my dog is choosing (out of several options put down for him, including meat) plain rice. He is also a dog who, during the summer, will bite off ears of ripening wheat and crunch them up with every evidence of delight.

> Tongue is delicious ...

You may think so, I certainly don't (lol)!

> It depends. Today my dog is choosing (out of several options put down for him, including meat) plain rice. He is also a dog who, during the summer, will bite off ears of ripening wheat and crunch them up with every evidence of delight.

I think your average dog would choose meat over grain every time. My dogs graze and will also crunch ears of wheat, but I still stand by the fact that the majority of their diet should be meat.

>I think your average dog would choose meat over grain every time.

I always suspected my dogs weren't just average! :-D