If 2 puppies both won BOB at a general open show not on the group system and puppy 1 beats puppy 2 and gets 3rdBIS. Can puppy 2 then be placed ahead of puppy 1 in BPIS? Does the beaten dog rule apply?

It may be that I don't understand you correctly, because I'm not sure what you mean by 3rd Best in Show.

Shows NOT judged on the group system would only award a Best in Show and a Reserve Best in Show, then a Best Puppy in Show and a Reserve Best Puppy in Show.

If a puppy won the Best in Show award, it would automatically be Best Puppy in Show as well. If a puppy was declared Res BIS, it could compete for Best Puppy in Show as long as the BIS was an adult.

On the face of it, the answer to your question is probably no, puppy 2 should not be placed ahead of puppy 1 if puppy1 beat puppy 2 in earlier competition. Was it the same judge?  Mind you I have seen dogs switch places in subsequent classes, the judges decision is final after all..............it just takes a bit of explaining.

I have the Red book in front of me, but you scenario is a little confusing.

Dawn R.

This particular show did award a 3rd BIS and a 4th BIS. They also did 3rd and 4th BPIS awards too.

I know BIS and RBIS are the official ones as far as the KC is concerned. Yes same judge for both. I know dogs can change places on a different day but thought the beaten dog rule applied throughout 1 show - obviously not.

I guess your 'judges decision is final' is the answer :)

Yes it can happen..

When a pup has taken BOB, it can go into the BIS & BPIS challenge.. BUT.. if puppy (1) does not get an 'official' placing, there is nothing to stop any judge looking again at both pups, and just in that split moment.. puppy 2 behaves, stands, shows himself to full advantage, giving him the 'edge' over the other pup to take the KC recognised place

As 3rd BIS is not a KC recognised placing..it is feasable since officially, he is not a beaten dog/puppy

It's funny this has been asked as I always thought it a shame that a res. BOB or say best puppy in a breed couldn't go up for say RBIS if it's own breed had won BIS.  Especially if it was a different judge they could actually think that the RBOB was a better specimen in their eyes.

Know I'm talking rubbish, but in a way it's feesible LOL!

> It's funny this has been asked as I always thought it a shame that a res. BOB or say best puppy in a breed couldn't go up for say RBIS if it's own breed had won BIS.  Especially if it was a different judge they could actually think that the RBOB was a better specimen in their eyes.
>
> Know I'm talking rubbish, but in a way it's feesible LOL!

I think I know what you mean..same as the 2nd in open can challenge for res cc etc..it's one I have wondered about.
Like a show judged on group system..say best gundog gets BIS, the 2nd place gundog could in theory challenge for BIS. I know it has never been done & likely not to ever be done but it works on the same scenario.

> same as the 2nd in open can challenge for res cc etc

The 2nd in ANY class can challenge for the RCC, if it came 2nd to the CC Winner... Say the CC Winner came from the Post Grad Class, the judge can call back the 2nd dog from that class..

To take it a step further, I always wonder why at Champ Shows etc the RBIS cannot also considered to be the second to the group winner who wins the overall BIS

> The 2nd in ANY class can challenge for the RCC, if it came 2nd to the CC Winner... Say the CC Winner came from the Post Grad Class, the judge can call back the 2nd dog from that class.. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

Yes, I know..just gave that as an example :)

At the United Retriever Club Shows the Reserve Best of Breed Winner to the eventual Best in show winner is always called in to challenge the remaining breeds for Reserve Best in Show

Cool, I always wonder why at Group Shows it doesn't happen, nice to see it at a subgroup show :-)

Yeah good point Sarah. I think I may have opened a can of worms on odd rules and regs. Still its good to know for the future, just when you think you have it all sussed there are still more things to learn!!

> To take it a step further, I always wonder why at Champ Shows etc the RBIS cannot also considered to be the second to the group winner who wins the overall BIS

That's what I was trying to say & by the looks of it, it has already happened.

It can happen if it isn't on the group system, as it says the RBIS is to be chosen from the remaining group winners.

In practical terms, unless the Group was judged that day the reserve group winners will likely not be at the show.