OK, here's a radical idea. how about if the KC made a rule that all dogs should be shown standing four square.  As far as I can see the show stance of the GSD is a major part of the reason they have been bred with the excessive angulation at the back. I have seen many GSDs that look great standing in the ring but then when they stand up straight it shows how odd the angulation is.
If they were shown standing straight then judges would be better able to assess the conformation as it is hard to do so when they are squatting down as they do now.

I have never understood why they show them that way as all other breeds are stood fore square, even the ones where ti is traditional to show them front onto the judge.

Hi DERBYMAC THE DOG IN QUESTION HAS COMPLETED AN AD TEST =20KILOMETER ENDURANCE TEST PLUS SCH H3 BOTH OF WHICH REQUIRE
THE ANIMAL TO BE FIT AND SOUND HE MAY HAVE COMPLETED OTHER TESTS THAT I AM NOT AWARE OF AT THIS TIME.
In my oppinion a dog that can gait for twenty km has the endurance to work, how many other breeds in showring have dogs still capable of performing there working/breed function ??
Stan Berry

Hi DERBYMAC THE DOG IN QUESTION HAS COMPLETED AN AD TEST =20KILOMETER ENDURANCE TEST PLUS SCH H3 BOTH OF WHICH REQUIRE
THE ANIMAL TO BE FIT AND SOUND HE MAY HAVE COMPLETED OTHER TESTS THAT I AM NOT AWARE OF AT THIS TIME.
In my oppinion a dog that can gait for twenty km has the endurance to work, how many other breeds in showring have dogs still capable of performing there working/breed function ??
Stan Berry

I'd like to see them go 20 Kilometres over rough terrain, like on this film.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlA0b-YI3rk

For a working dog, it should be no problem!

(BTW, I do not know who owns this dog, just found it on youtude.  Beautiful dog with good muscle over the lumbar spine and well muscled hindquarters, whoever owns it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_z3fgk9bQw&feature=related

Not sure if I have done this right but I have to say even though I preferr a more Europien type of GSD I am horrified at this clip. There is a happy medium but this is not it and I can quite see why the KC are up in arms. I have only just found this but...is it me or do those dogs tip their toes under at the back on the forward stroke? When I was in GSD's many years ago that was considered to be signs of CDRM.
Just as well I am no longer in the breed as my Middle of the road type is lost now in the feirce argument and it appears to be a very very wide gulf.
Aileen

derbymerc i agree i watched the dog win at crufts and held my head down in shame ,i was told by a very good breeder there that day (and yes this is ear say) that the judges were told not to pick a dog that looked too bad and from what i saw there and this is just my point of view most of the dogs looked way to frog legged ,i have the same breed here and i do health tests i can and ALL my friends i know within this breed do too and are always reading up and looking into other tests that they can do ,always tryin our upmost to change the way things are ,we have english lines tho so frog legs isnt a problem ,imo looking at them walk makes me feel bad for this breed!

Surely no dog should have the rear pastern in contact with the ground when moving?  The cow hocks also make me cringe.

Is this a typical example of this type or just a poor dog conformationally regardless of it's type?.

In my opinion I think the dog (sorry don't know who the dog is) pictured in the clip posted by Merlot does have exaggerated hind leg angulation, I agree with Merlot that even though I prefer the European type of GSD, the clip gives the appearance of the dog having both cow and sickle hocks (hocks very close with feet turing out and also hocks well angulated so feet rest far under the body).  I do not like the way the toes brush the ground, to me that is a fault.   I think that this is not a typical example of desired type, but that in trying to achieve the current desired type, we see some examples like this. Whilst in my opinion the exaggeration could cause a lack of power, or possible increased wear and tear, certain exaggerations we see in other breeds are far more detrimental to health. But I will never prefer the straight backed "Alsation" type.

Hi Helenzdog, if we say all breeds are shown 4square then do we say that certain breeds can not bait dogs with tit-bits, hold tails up over back
or do anything physically to enhance dog when in the ring ?
Stan Berry

I don't have a problem with the way GSD's are stacked in the ring, they are expected to have a long easy gait and need well angled hocks to achieve this but  from the clip I showed it has gone way too far in some dogs. I still would rather have a more "European" dog but this should be achievable with out this sort of exageration and is indeed about. Many of the European working dogs are great examples. I am not getting at GSD enthusiasts but I can quite understand the fears the KC and it's associates have when faced with this type of example. As has been said there are lots of other breeds with faults (One of my pet hates is the Neoploitan mastiff and it's horrendous excessive skin folds) and not all breed clubs will admit to them but on the whole they are working hard to eliminate them. I think the GSD clubs do need to accept there is a huge problem and deal with it. To close your eyes to poor examples and do nothing about it is wrong. Sorry if I am upsetting some of you!! If the clubs could give some indecation of what they are doing to help It would do them nothing but good IMO.
Just my thoughts, I am no longer involved with GSD's for these reasons...My dogs were all what used to be classed as Middle of the road and as such were not admired by either side of the fence !! but to me were right.
Aileen

I know nothing about GSDs, or their movement, but there is one near me that has a straight but sloping back (not bent but not parallel to the ground if that makes sense) and he looks lovely and to my completely novice eye seems to move really well and could run all day.  Is this an 'incorrect' dog or how they once were?  As I said I know nothing about them so maybe have the views of most of the public.

In all honesty Stan yes I'd say if a tail is supposed to be over the back then it should be there without someone holding it there.  Using a tit bit so a dog is attentive seems to me neither here nor there but if it upsets some people then I wouldn't have a problem with them banning it - I suppose it could be argued some breeds are supposed to be attentive or alert without the aid of a dog biscuit.   Then again I'd also favour breeding out the overly profuse coats many breeds have developed, the overly short muzzles, the excessive skin folds, heavy bodies etc etc .   I agree that the GSD shouldn't be singled out but neither should other breeds being just as bad or worse be a reason for ignoring the obvious problems in the german shepherd.  

To be honest without something to hold a dogs attention (double handling being unacceptable), what would you use instead of titbits, you either need to hold the dogs attention or hold the dog in place, especially with scenting breeds like my own who can quite happily move with nose glued to ground.

There is nothing artificial about a dog looking for a tit bit (I abhor the practise of throwing bait or toys, or using squeakers), and I much prefer this to the static effect of stacking.  Yes I suppose training the dog to watch you is OK, but gives a bad head carriage quite often, and also just how long can they watch boring old Mum ;)

>if we say all breeds are shown 4square then do we say that certain breeds can not bait dogs with tit-bits, hold tails up over back or do anything physically to enhance dog when in the ring ?

No, we say that GSD handlers can also use titbits etc, with the (single ;-)) handler having to do the work of keeping the dog's attention, just as everyone else has to.

working mens clubs which were also private clubs still had to comply with various pieces of legislation E.G. ADMISSION OF WOMEN AS FULL MEMBERS

Sorry but up until 5 years ago i worked in these working mens clubs for nearly 20 years , i still go to my local one as a guest of a friend whos a member their and can honestly say they may very well begrudgingly have women members but the rules inside are basically the same as they ever where , ( NO WOMEN IN THE SNOOKER ROOM OR TOP BAR) Unless their in their to hoover it as the cleaner of course,

and unless your the wife of a member whose prepared to kick up a big stink about having your own membership ( which none of them will as this just leads to everyone hating you and their'd be no point joining up if this was the case)

so most women are made to feel outcasted for just asking for full membership,

iv worked in 3 clubs in my time and only one was and still is REALLY bad , it still will not let black people join either and if a member brings in a black pal , the bar goes silent ,

totally awful place to be really and not as changed as some think,

Stan, my nationality is insofar relevant that Germany is full of GSD's - I basically grew up with them and therefore a GSD was the first dog I chose. However,  I have since closely watched the physical decline in the breed and as the GSD is considered cultural heritage in Germany it is of particular interest for me and many of my fellow Germans to see the breed brought back from the brink and restored to its glorious former self. One does not have to be a breeder/owner/fancier to see that there is something very very wrong with the modern day GSD, hence my reference to the *ordinary German in the street*.

I can also see that you keep banging away with your opinion without taking anything on board what very knowledgeable people have stated.

It's not just the exterior which has suffered, the GSD is also leading in biting incidents by far in Germany (I don't know the statistics in the UK hencce my reference to Germany, again :-p).

> I have since closely watched the physical decline in the breed and as the GSD is considered cultural heritage in Germany it is of particular interest for me and many of my fellow Germans to see the breed brought back from the brink and restored to its glorious former self.

Oooh... I'm interested to see what, in the minds of native Germans, what its glorious self is/would be.... How does it differ from the current type? Could it be inferred from what you have said, that in Germany there is some - um - disagreement?
(asking totally without prejudice, here).
Biting incidents is of interest too.

All I can say is if you look at the Sieger winners from 1898 to the present day you can see from 1970's the change that has been breed into the breed.
People say this is the morden GSD, I cannot see what this has done to the breed.
If the people that work the breed in the Military and the Police are looking away from the GSD has something gone wrong.
For example the German Police Force have said they will no longer take the German GSD, this is due to it only being able to work 4 hrs instead of 8 hrs.

The German police severed their contract with the S.V in the 90's, and moved towards the Malinois.

Otterhound; absolutely spot on.  I've been following developments in Germany and noting the views of the German public.  I understand the VDH (German Kennel Club) has concerns too.     

In 2006 I was fortunatley invited by a friend to attend a meeting before the Sieger and to watch the Sieger.
All very interesting and I can understand why people like it.
During the meeting the problems within the breed were highlighted to everyone. They were also asking for ways to improve the breed.
If the change started in the 70's and we are now seeing the results of going to far, everyone needs to work together for the breed,
it will take a long time, this is not a short fix problem

The thing is Rockape, it was highlighted back as far as the early 90's, and the standard was changed in 1996.  It's been highlighted by many ever since and things carry on down the same pathway.  It will be interesting to see what happens at the Sieger this year....

Yes, it will take a long time to correct to get back to the sane, straight backed dogs with a versatility that was second to none.

When I was a child I saw many sheep herds being driven by GSD's and now you will have to look very very hard to find a single GSD working sheep. All the shepherds have gone from the breed and use Collies or very old German herding breeds such as the Harzer Fuchs.

> Oooh... I'm interested to see what, in the minds of native Germans, what its glorious self is/would be.... How does it differ from the current type? Could it be inferred from what you have said, that in Germany there is some - um - disagreement?
> (asking totally without prejudice, here).
> Biting incidents is of interest too.

Just an example, don't laugh ;). My mother who knows nothing about dogs and is still appalled that one of her daughters lives with so many ;). She has stated to me that the GSD of old were much nicer dogs, by that she meant both their looks and their temperaments. Straight backed sane GSD's are very far and few between.

I have recently been to a Koerung and SCHHIII test. I've seen dogs turn on their handlers during *lange Flucht*, I've seen dogs shaking with exhaustion after the first part of the test (Tracking) and I've seen dogs not able to scale the A-wall to bring back the dummy (don't know what the English word is for the timber thingy used for this).

I had to leave after watching for 2 hours, it turned my stomach.

> All the shepherds have gone from the breed and use Collies or very old German herding breeds such as the Harzer Fuchs.

I had to Google this breed - but what stunning-looking dogs!
http://www.harzerfuchs.net/

Look like some common ancestry with the GSD.

Yes, there are several old German herding dog strains/types/breeds and they have quite large following by now.

http://www.altdeutschehuetehunde.de/?id=10

Not surprisingly they look a lot like a mix of other herding breeds found in neighbouring  countries, like the Picardy, Belgian, dutch etc.

Must admit a breed I rather like is the Hovawart, and am surprised it hasn't become more popular in the UK, especially as ti seems the breed enthusiasts are being pretty careful about health.

The Hovawarts I know have very strong guarding instincts which is probably the reason they have not become as popular.

Hi Chelzeagirl, I fully agree with you that everyone has not complied with all the laws put in place and some will try and get round them, that doesnt mean they dont have to comply with laws passed if it comes to the authorities attention that they are breaching them
Stan Berry

Looking at the slo-mo footage of the said GSD form Crufts...

Could someone please tell me how this dog completed a 20K endurance test when he drags his hind feet on the forward step. Ie he scuffs the top of his feet on every stride, this would cause wear and soreness on the top side of his feet. I appreciate that he is on lead and his stride is altered accordingly but his excessive hock looseness stops rigidity in the footfall.

As my current show dog is trained to walk into (natural) show stance on long lead with handler behind him it is not possible that she could
also offer tit-bits to attract.
Due to being disabled with mobility problems I have no capacity or indeed inclination to run round a ring trying to attract my dogs attention, he allways wants to know where I am, so I simply stand where he can see me and that makes him attentive.
I accept that some people do overdo the attraction, as do some people in other breeds with squeaky toys etc. on another note I believe that some stewarts can go overboard, earlier this year I was at a show where the floor was a very slippy high gloss parquet surface which my dog had never experienced before, as he was entering ring (one of first in) he became upset by slippyness of floor and started fiddlefooting, I simply spoke his name and told him "settle down lad" worried that he might sprain a leg, to be told "your not allowed to attract your dog from outside the ring" bearing in mind dogs were still entering the ring at this time and judge was still sitting at table this stewards attitude seemed over the top to me in the circumstances, as my first priority is to stop any risk of injury, or his behaviour upsetting any of other dogs in class.
Stan Berry

There are a couple of posts regarding the German police moving away from the GSD, does anybody know if they had their own breeding programmes as here (I know here in UK some outside dogs are taken, but also many are bred within the police force)?

Hi Otterhound,
Just to clarify a few points having read through your posts : Am I "banging away at my oppinion" in the same manner as yourself ? the reason for any forum is for all contributors to give there oppinions ! You say you had G.S.Ds. in the past (for how long and how many ?) but I note you no longer have them, if you had concerns about the breed why did you not stay with it and try and rectify your percieved problems "within" the breed. If there are any problems within any breed it is only by those people who are aware of them sticking with a breed that problems get resolved, bailing out of a breed because you dont agree with the way it is going is not an option for someone with good of breed at heart.
Stan Berry

That is a bit hard Stan, as the vast majority of people in a breed are owners and not breeders, and only the breeders can determine the direction a breed goes.

Also if most people are breeding one standard which isn't the one that this person wants, where could they go to improve upon the breed, especially if the majority of breeders etc. were still breeding what the person thought was incorrect?  Thus, I presume also making it hard for the person to sell their pups on???

My dear Stan ;), just in case you do not know: I am not a breeder and I do not have a chosen breed. I have had many dogs/breeds. I had GSD's 30 years ago when they still looked like normal dogs and not carricatures. There is no way I would get a GSD now, looking like that.

Perhaps you ought to read my posts again because I don't think you understood them fully ;).

Perrodeagua, this is why I asked whether the German police bred their own dogs.  I was wondering what had happened, if they had a type and it worked well (I think somebody posted that they no longer liked GSD's as they used to work 8 hours a day and now can only work 4) and therefore why things went wrong, did they alter breeding stratgies, did they introduce different lines to keep up with fashion and then find it reduced working ability, or did it happen gradually and then they found there was no way back?  Obviously if all the dogs are sourced from outside the force, then they would have had no control over the changes in the breed and like you said nowhere to look for improvement if everybody was breeding for the same type, but I wonder if Otterhound had any idea how it worked over there?

Hi Brainless, actually I believe as a group owners can affect the direction of any breed by there acceptance or non acceptance of a breeders pups as the right one for them.
I breed to obtain a pup of the "type" that I prefer, obviously to do this requires that I have people willing to obtain those pups I am not keeping back, without them I could not continue to breed to my own line nor could any other breeder who takes the responsibility for there pups
The only people not affected by above would be the commercial puppy farmers.
Stan Berry