OK,so in view of the grotesque and upsetting images of dead and dying horses strewn across the racetrack at Aintree yesterday in the name of entertainment does anyone else think the BBC are just a tad hypocritical??

>the grotesque and upsetting images of dead and dying horses strewn across the racetrack at Aintree yesterday

I've never seen an image like that. When was it shown?

3 horses were killed yesterday and 1 on Thursday,in each case they could be seen clearly dead on the racetrack but only given a very brief mention by the reporters.And the Grand National is yet to be run.Its not really entertainment is it?

I have long been against the Grand national....no its not entertainment.

Abso bloomin lootly...

I will never watch the GN and have hated it since childhood.

I used to love it, but not now as I only think of dead horses when I think of the race.
I loved Red Rum but am glad he made it to rest peacefully in his old age, unlike so many.

It's all about money at the end of the day, I think there is precious little enough love of horses - and I used to think differently.

Lindsay
x

No casualties this year. :-) Interestingly one refused to start - wouldn't budge - so it shows that the ones that run are doing it through choice.

> so it shows that the ones that run are doing it through choice

I would think that, being a herd animal, that horse must have had a pretty good reason not to follow every instinct a horse is born with...to run with the herd.

Maybe knew the chance of it dying was pretty high :(

>Maybe knew the chance of it dying was pretty high

If it thought anything like that it would know that its chance of dying was lower than if it was running wild across a prairie!

No: it had completed the course before so knew that it was doable. It just didn't want to today. Others which had also completed the course before also knew it was doable and did want to do it again.

I'd like to know where the AR protestors are. Dogs don't DIE at Crufts!

>> Maybe knew the chance of it dying was pretty high
>

Thats true-although its not going to live very long if it won't race either...

>> Thats true-although its not going to live very long if it won't race either..

Not necessarily, although at GN level of racing that may be true. I know of an horse who injured his leg and that ended his racing carer. His owners kept him for stud work and he now lives in a nice big field.

>> Not necessarily, although at GN level of racing that may be true. I know of an horse who injured his leg and that ended his racing carer. His owners kept him for stud work and he now lives in a nice big field.

That must have been a flat racehorse-National Hunt ones are all gelded.

> That must have been a flat racehorse-National Hunt ones are all gelded.

So how do they get the next generation of National Hunt horses?

>> So how do they get the next generation of National Hunt horses?

I think a lot of NH horses started out as flat racers to begin with,the lucky ones get retired to stud,the not so lucky end up doing NH.

Not so. NH horses are also bred: mares can run and jump as well, you know.

Well,yes,of course mares race as well.But not stallions.

National Hunt breeding. There are plenty of stallions racing under NH rules.

> I'd like to know where the AR protestors are. Dogs don't DIE at Crufts!

Hear hear!

The GN is supposed to be a sport!   And those racehorses that don't make the grade are shipped off to Europe to become salami, steaks or dog food!

The same way that New Forest foals are?

A lot of New forest ponies have a great life...i am a New Forester born and bred and my family have always looked after them very well, yes a few are sold on.

I doubt the NF ponies are bred in the same quantities per year as racehorses are and there's all those that get retired and have nowhere to go too except to the knackers yard.

Surplus horses are better off at a knacker's yard here than being exported.

>A lot of New forest ponies have a great life...

Article.

I stand by what i said.. a lot of ponies have a great life, yes there are ones that don't have such a good life.

> Surplus horses are better off at a knacker's yard here than being exported.

Surplus?   We're talking several thousand each year not a handful!

> stand by what i said.. a lot of ponies have a great life, yes there are ones that don't have such a good life.

Just like racehorses then. Or dogs.

>We're talking several thousand each year not a handful!

Yes, just like any other livestock. Certainly better than the end reputedly met by many failed racing greyhounds.

Speaking as someone from a heavy equestrian background, including large involvment in NH racing, i will point out a few things...

Stallions do run in NH races, although not as commonly as mares or geldings, the main reason being that stallions tend to be much less bold than geldings and also present more of a problem during training(stallions with mares in close proximity isnt the easiest combination)

Generally, race horses are very well cared for and have the best of everything. It is utter myth that they are treated purely as commodities with no emotion involved- you only have to see the stable jockeys/grooms/trainers/owners of these horses that sadly die on the race track or in any other way.(you only had to watch the GN preview to see that when the owners/trainers were asked what they hoped from today- their answer?..'to get home safe'

Accidents do happen when racing but alot of improvements for both horse and jockey safety have been made over the years(including the national fences)
The horses run and race because that is what they have been bred raised and trained for. The majority love doing it and those that dont, simply dont make it as race horses. Those that dont make it are often sold on as prospects for other disciplines such as eventing or riding horses.

If peoples issues is with the horses dying when running, then surely you are against other disciplines such as eventing? Oh and while your at it, we had better stop riding horses on the roads(plenty die that way) or one further- stop riding them at all? only last week my friends horse through her rider and bolted and impaled herself on a post and rail fence.

The majority of these horses are bred by people that absolutely love them to bits and have only the horses best interests at heart.

edit: oh and i also find it hard to believe the bbc showed coverage of dead horses? I can understand if you saw the horse fall and not get back up, but im pretty sure(actually positive) that the screens went round those horses pretty quick and the cameras and public eyes kept away.

Hijacking the thread slightly, Why is it so awful to be killing horses? We kill millions of cows, pigs, and sheep each year for food. As long as it is done humanely what is the difference? As JeanGenie said Better to be killed here and then exported than transported while still alive.
I don't particularly want to eat horse, but I don't understand the double standard of being horrified that horses are slaughtered for food, even pet food,  while happily eating meat ourselves. I presume that even the vegetarians on the list feed their dogs meat?

> Why is it so awful to be killing horses? We kill millions of cows, pigs, and sheep each year for food. As long as it is done humanely what is the difference?

Quite agree, and it would be a way of utilising and encouraging the keeping of our native ponies, because there will inevitably be a limit to how many will be able to be used for riding.  In an increasingly urban society horses are being squeezed out/  they are a very expensive to keep pet so why not use the surplus for food?

I happen to be very partial to Horse, as I am of Venison.

We are importing all manner of animals to farm for food like Ostrich, etc, why not use our own existing resource?

> don't particularly want to eat horse, but I don't understand the double standard of being horrified that horses are slaughtered for food, even pet food,  while happily eating meat ourselves. I presume that even the vegetarians on the list feed their dogs meat?

I am a vegetarian.  My dogs eat complete food.  However I have decided to be a vegetarian, I do not inflict my views on my dogs who clearly need to have meat in their diet - ditto my cats - more than I do.

We kill millions of cows, pigs, and sheep each year for food. As long as it is done humanely what is the difference?

If people didn't eat meat then most of these animals would disappear anyway - not many of us could keep them as pets and farmers wouldn't be able to afford to keep them just to make the countryside look pretty or to be able to supply us all with leather goods.

> If people didn't eat meat then most of these animals would disappear anyway - not many of us could keep them as pets and farmers wouldn't be able to afford to keep them just to make the countryside look pretty

And that is exactly my point about Horses and Ponies.

Horses are now basically out of a job in modern society, existing in a few niche roles (pet or enterntainment), but generally extinct in their traditional role as geenral transport and beast of burden.

There are (according to insurance figures) about 975,000 horses and ponies in this country; I was told that's more than there were during the Victorian era - whether or not that's true I don't know. The vast majority are kept for sport or as pets.

> Why is it so awful to be killing horses? We kill millions of cows, pigs, and sheep each year for food. As long as it is done humanely what is the difference? As JeanGenie said Better to be killed here and then exported than transported while still alive.
> I don't particularly want to eat horse, but I don't understand the double standard of being horrified that horses are slaughtered for food, even pet food,  while happily eating meat ourselves. I presume that even the vegetarians on the list feed their dogs meat?

Good point.
I do not lile the idea of 'surples' horses (those that don't make the grade for racing or can no-longer race) being killed for meat. I don't have a problem with animals that are farmed for thier meat being killed to be eaten.
The differnce, for me, is not the fact the aniaml is killed, it's the reason why the animal is bred in the first place.
Eating is an essential part of life so breeding aniamls for the purpose of eating them, is an essential thing (even if all people turnded vegitarian, there are plenty of other animals that need to eat meat). Horse racing is NOT essentail, it is simply for the entertainment of people. It seems very wrong to breed an animal, to entertain people and then kill it when it isn't good enough - seems no different than a person killing thier dog becasue it has retired from/not good enough for showing.

So, (in an attempt to sum up my rambling), farm animals are bred for eating = an essential thing. All other animals are not essential, so by breeding them, I feel we have a duty to offer them the best life we can do, not simplky dispose of them when they are no-longer wanted.
Euthanasia should save an animal from unnecessary suffering. Animals can be spared that by not being bred in the first place, if the people who will be taking them on can not be bothered to offer then all they need for thier natural life :(
Euthanasia should not be for the convienience of the owner.

> Animals can be spared that by not being bred in the first place, if the people who will be taking them on can not be bothered to offer then all they need for their natural life :-(
>

Then would you like to see a day when there would be no viable reason to keep horses at all.

If Racing was banned, and most people who now keep a horse to ride as a pet could no longer afford to, and no-one bred them as they could not pay their way?

As we have native breeds that are part of our history giving some point to breeding a large enough population to keep them healthy (a lot do get shipped for meat abroad, or end up in pet food).

Taking this thread in a slightly different direction I was struck with one of the big differences between reporting/commentating on Racing as opposed to Crufts , and perhaps goes some way to explaining Claire Balding's comments on the GSD which caused some controversey.  Almost all of the presenters involved at Aintree were extremely frank with their opinions on the horses, their chances, previous performance and current condition, so frank that similar comments at Crufts would probably lead to an uproar from owners/handlers!

That's a very good point, Gwen. 'Horsy' people tend to be very much more candid and down to earth than 'doggy' people, saying it how it is. No rose-tinted spectacles there!

Having seen some of the critiques of the winners (let alone the non winners) at European shows, it makes us look very thin skinned.

I think a lot of NH horses started out as flat racers to begin with,the lucky ones get retired to stud,the not so lucky end up doing NH.

Not true, a flat racer and a NH horse are completely different in construction, the flat racer will only be around 15h 2hh and will start his carrier from a very early age, that why you get yearling 1yr old /2yr old classes..

the NH horse does not start  till he/she is around 4yrs old, they are a much larger (they can even make 17hh) horse in both build and height... so  you will not get a flat racer   progress onto  jumps!!

Many many failed race horses  , go on to be either hobby horses or compete in different disciplines... cant remember who now (need to put my thinking cap on) but one of our top eventers has a very successful horse that failed as a NH horse.

Horses die and injure themselves on race tracks, yes of cause they do , but  statistically  the number is far lower  than lets say   dieing  on roads  , grazing in fields   and even in stables ,

Horses are fragile creatures they are also creatures that love to run (some of them)   you can also NOT force any horse to do something he or she does not want to do... especially when they are extremely large  national hunt types..(mind I take that back, anyone tried to make a 12hh pony do something he does nto want too!!!)

Those who are involved in any discipline regarding horses are people who 1) love the animal, 2) love the sport, and all it entails.

Yes some end up at dog meat,  but thats is not down to one industry  of the equine... you only have to go round any horse sale to see that,   the small native ponies that are bred by their thousands, the gypsy cobs , the list is endless,   most of these are worthless (monetary value)   , the failed race horse  believe it or not, will still fetch good money , and people being people will always try to recoup  some of their outlay...  so why send a perfectly good horse to the meat market , when   you can get a few thousand/hundred  for it, allowing it to  go on to be successful in other disciplines.

[url=]That's a very good point, Gwen. 'Horsy' people tend to be very much more candid and down to earth than 'doggy' people, saying it how it is. No rose-tinted spectacles there! [/url]

My god, there`S never a true word said..LOL!!!

Slightly off track as usual but did anyone see the hairy Bikers Tour of Vietnam? They thought they were eating pork or duck and it was "Rover". One turned green and left his meal!!

Horses have always died at Aintree ect, but they arent bred by people who know they have inherited poor gene base.

I don't go racing I think its cruel but there are differences? But I think the topic merits discussion as the BBC takes notice of people like the Aga Khan with his gee gees but not me and you with our prize pooches!!
Its a Class Thing!! Duke of Westminster owns a few as well.

What health tests are carried out on horses then before being bred from?

100's a thorough bred can be worth millions. My uncles worked at Whitemen stables and Mick Channon is a mate of a mate. Im not condoning it but if a race horse had a fault it would not be any good if a cavvie does sometimes they still breed according to the tv and there are a lot of byb but not for racehorses!!
As I said i dont watch it its cruel but there is a difference and the BBC answer to money..

[url=]What health tests are carried out on horses then before being bred from? [/url]

Very good point, and as far as I know (open to  correction) other than the normal pre-mate, I dont think you do any form of genetic  testings or things like hip scores and so on.

Any defect or genetic disorder will be pretty self evident in a foal    when its born, things like cow hocks,   fallen heels . pigeon toed , and conformation faults,  will be there to see , and as most horses only have one foal at a time, along with a small  amount of breeding stock, I think you can usually avoid breeding from anything that is not conformational sound..

There are a few things I know , that now can be tested for such as ...Foal Immunodeficiency Syndrome (FIS) ,  with DNA testing, it may now be able to pinpoint carriers.... but again  , they condition will be self evident in a short space of time.

Horses are not like  dogs, they suffer all the usual cancers , cataracts, eye ulcers,   limb/joint injuries as we do,    but  prevention through tests,  I have not heard of  any.  95 % of horses are never bred from,  mos males are gelded, and most mares never produce a foal,

I AM OPEN TO BE PROVED WRONG THOUGH 

Race horses are truly tested  'fit for funtion' or they are sold off for leisure horses or meat.
In general they are tested almost to breaking point in NH and if they dont fall, break down, or burst a blood vessel they are deemed to be succesful.
Genetic testing, therefore has not been as neccesary in this type of animal because they are tested in the field.

Also in general, close breeding is very rare in thoroughbred racehorses even in the super-elite classic winners. Perhaps they are mindful of problems which have occured in the past.
This type of horse is decended from the smallest genepool possible.

To return to the OPs question....I do think the BBC are very hypocritical in this instance but, as another poster refered to, we are but poor ( weird in some eyes) little dog show exibitors...kinda strange holding tails up, clipping into shape etc, whereas the 'sport of kings' is populated by the super rich and super powerful.

>
> the NH horse does not start till he/she is around 4yrs old, they are a much larger (they can even make 17hh) horse in both build and height; you will not get a flat racer progress onto jumps!!

That used to be the case but with the emphasis on speed not strength now,many NH horses(especially hurdlers) are flat racing castoffs which could explain why there are so many injuries.
Also-if you read ChristineW's link the abbatoir owner says they kill 2-3,000 ex racehorses a year-why would she make that up if it wasn't true?
Very good post Mastifflover,no animal should be disposable and bred only to be euthanised if its not successful enough.After all show dogs are not destroyed if they don't win are they?

Imagine if 2-3000 showdogs were slaughtered/euthanised each year, the subject would be all over the TV & newspapers.      After all just because we don't eat dog meat in this country doesn't mean it's not an acceptable meat form in other countries where dogs are looked upon as edible.