Even prey chasing dogs can be trained without the e collar. I have 8 dogs, 3 boxers, GSD, cocker, lab, and the 6 adult dogs have learnt with gentle training to live very happily with my other rescues, sheep goats, horses and free range chickens. They have learnt to be one big family with no chasing and all mix well. My Gsd squatting down for a wee had a chicken hop onto her back and off the other side and she did not bat an eyelid. The 2 terrier pups (almost 6 months)I am working on and with the help of patience a clicker and treats and they are now great with the goats and sheep, only this morning actually licking noses with the goats like long lost friends. They will need a lot more work with the chickens as they tend to become deaf when they see them, but I know without a doubt we will achieve harmony with more work and time.

> The way e collars work is by negative reinforcment.

Surely its positive punishment. You are adding something, the shock from the collar, to reduce the unwanted behaviour.

The way e collars work is by negative reinforcment. The dog is trained using the first sensation he feels the collar on, his reaction to this sensation will be to look at the ground or cock his ears. Nothing more!

The way you describe is not the way the Shock collar works, (sorry I'm not using the nicey, nicey politically correct term), The shock collar is an aversive training method, by definition, a mild sensation is not aversion.

The problem with using 'tickles' with a dog that is a predatory chaser is that your are attempting to over ride huge sensations of good feelings and chemicals released during the chase that have been through natural selection designed to shut down all external distractions. If there's only one reason why Shock collars fail it's because the user conditions the dog to pain by starting on a lower level.

It may work with a chaser that has just started and hasn't become addicted to the thrill of the chase, but in that instance why would you use a shock collar? Other kinder methods are available.

To put it another way, take the hungry boy who knows there's a big bowl of ice cream in the freezer, he steals some and gets a slapped hand for it, next time he's hungry he thinks the slap wasn't so bad and the taste of that delicious ice cream was certainly worth the slap, next time he's caught he gets a belting on the bottom, the taste of the ice cream, the hunger in his belly are going to over ride the belt on bottom, so what's the next step, how ever you want to dress it up, the punisher can't lose so the only way is escalation of violence, and with that something is lost, at least trust has been lost on one side and humanity from the other.

This does too things A, it stops predatory chasing of that prey item. B, it means the dog no longer cares aboput that prey item

I'd be interested in your case studies of dogs that were predatory chasers where this scenario occurred because from experience with predatory chasers, the reality is that once the thrill of the chase has been experienced you may be able to control the chase while you are 100% focussed on the dog, but if your attention is diverted or left to their own devices they will always revert back to chasing, the only reliable way to stop the chase is remove the target.

It is possible to stop predatory chasing in a lot of dogs, it can be very difficult and it can be impossible with some dogs, but the shock collar is certainly not the magic tool to do it.

If you want to use shock collars then that's your choice at the moment, but please don't try and justify it by prettying it up, the E collar is an Electric collar or Shock collar and it has been designed to deliver pain, it is capable of escalating that pain.

Other people more qualified then I'll ever be can explain why shock collars shouldn't be used, might might I suggest you read the excellent book 'STOP' How to control predatory chasing in dogs, by David Ryan. The last chapter is of particular interest to those considering Shock collars.

And we haven't even started on the psychological damage shock collars can do to some dogs.

>Surely its positive punishment.

Yes; e-collar promoters try to convince you that the cessation of the shock (because often they will use a continuous shock rather than a brief 'jolt') is the reward for the right action. A bit like the 'reward' of cessation of pain when you stop hitting your head against a wall.

Excellent post Robert K.

Excellent post Robert K.

In full agreement there :-)

Yes, shock collars are mostly positive punishment but could also be said on lower levels, on continuous, to be positive punishment and negative reinforcement (only the users like to call it "neg. reinforcement" as it sounds so much nicer).

Lindsay
x

When we are getting ready to go for a walk my dog literally barges her head into her collar(I always use a half check or a headcollar) now I don,t for one minute think she would leap into an electric collar.
No I,m sorry they will never be used in this house if I can,t control a dog without one then I,ll give up having dogs.
Sharon

> And we haven't even started on the psychological damage shock collars can do to some dogs.

Clinical Research Paper (Published Elsevier)
Matthijs B.H. Schilder a,b,∗ , Joanne A.M. van der Borg a 
Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, University of Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands
Department of Ethology and Socio-Ecology, University of Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands
Accepted 23 October 2003
Training dogs with help of the shock collar: short and long term behavioural effects

Interestingly the last gentleman that posted prolifically on this forum with regard to Shock collars,had his 'training' videos removed from You Tube, as I would have linked to one in particular in which he was filming a Siberian Husky he was 'training' but the reaction of his own dog and the behavior displayed in the film clip was exactly what the above research paper was highlighting :O(
    Again, interestingly I invited the afore mentioned gentleman, publically on this Forum to join me in a walk with my Siberian who has been clicker trained...He never got back to me!! Funny that..... ;-)
    Adam, maybe you know him??? Remind him would you :-P

Oh HG - did you invite Dennis? ;)

I have a friend and in her total ignorance bought one off the internet to use on her Westie who had a barking problem. I say 'had' as she has solved the problem by rewarding his good behaviour . She used the collar only once. The effect it had on the poor dog was horrific and the scream the dog let out she says will haunt her for ever as she feesl so very guilty for putting him through what she described as torture. It was only until I had a good chat with her and explained a few things about what they do and she said she would never had even considered buying one if she had known what it was capable of. The website she bought it off also misled her and she got a full refund after they threatened them with a Solicitor which makes you wondered how legally these things can be sold if they gave in so quickly :-)

Let hope the Government follow suit with the Welsh Parliment and ban these horrible things.

I wonder if Adam sells these collars as he seem very pro collars, almost as if he has a vested interest in them :-)

Interestingly the last gentleman that posted prolifically on this forum with regard to Shock collars,had his 'training' videos removed from You Tube, as I would have linked to one in particular in which he was filming a Siberian Husky he was 'training' but the reaction of his own dog and the behavior displayed in the film clip was exactly what the above research paper was highlighting :O(
    Again, interestingly I invited the afore mentioned gentleman, publically on this Forum to join me in a walk with my Siberian who has been clicker trained...He never got back to me!! Funny that.....

Very very very interesting indeed.

Well well well.

Can you say what the dog/s were doing?

Lindsay
x

Well after googling that particular chaps name, it seems he's very active on other dog forums with regard to these collars...
Could have a very valid point there LJS

BRING ON the ban to extend further than Wales to all the UK.
Then there will be NO reason to debate them in here or any other UK forums.... and might be considered illegal to do so if it encourages people to break the law by getting one. (You'll just have to do it on overseas ones, all you electrical fiends).

Hmmmm! How do we know who here lives in Wales?
'Tis a criminal offence to encourage others to break the law ;)

Adam you seem to have gone strangely quiet since HG put her post up. Dare we hope that at last the reality of what you are using and promoting is beginning to sink in - I doubt it but really hope that this thread has at least made you re-evaluate your training methods.

> Adam you seem to have gone strangely quiet since HG put her post up

Gone to ground!

It's the weekend, I'm training all weekend!

Anyway, I have no vested interest in selling collars. I mostly just pass them on at cost to my clients.

If anyone has any questions on training with an e collar please ask me.

Adam

I'm curious.  As you know E-collars, are more accepted this side of the pond.  I don't have one, have never used one but know people who do and I also know.....Every collar I've seen has the option to use either vibration or tone.  Instead of the shock.  So my question is, are the vibration and tone banned too?

Jetstone

I don't know, but I believe it's only the electric element that is banned.
Vibrate is very useful for deaf dogs ect and is a popular none aversive training aid for something called muscle memory which helps with command recognition.

Some e collar trainers will do 99% of their training with the vibrate function and only use the e function for emergency use.

If the ban was extended I would look into vibrate collars for an alternative.

Interestingly a friend of mine in the states says some dogs are more sensitive to the vibrate element than to the sensation element.

Tones vary with the collar. Some are designed as an aversive to act as a warning for the sensation, others are designed as a remote clicker to mark wanted behaviour, others can be used to signal commands (like a whistle).

Adam

If the ban was extended I would look into vibrate collars for an alternative

Then why oh why not use vibrate collars NOW rather than put your dogs through pain and torture of these barbaric shock collars???
Look no further Mr Palmer, you've just answered your own question - shock collars are not necessary!

The e collar peopel who use the vibrate function for most of the training say that on occasion a sensation is needed. I agree vibrate collars have the potential to be good but perhasps only with the e function added.

Also these collars do not cause pain ect, it's very mild discomfort. The style of training with vibrate is different from the style used with e and the vibrate training appears to be less useful for the sort of problems I deal with with the e collar. Vibrate training will usually teach the dogs the commands with vibrate as a muscle memory thing then use the e for unwanted behaviours.

Also vibrate trainers find that many dogs consider the vibrate function quite starlting and have to be gotten used to it. Others need sensitising to it via the e function.

So it's not as good a tool as the e collar which is why I don't use it.

Harley

With your terrier we'd use the technique to stop him directing his prey drive to several different prey species (say a rabbit, then a chicken). At no point would his stimulation level be high enough that we'd need to up the level or do anything but first level with the e collar.

Adam

With your terrier we'd use the technique to stop him directing his prey drive to several different prey species (say a rabbit, then a chicken). At no point would his stimulation level be high enough that we'd need to up the level or do anything but first level with the e collar.

Adam his prey drive is very, very high and when he is exceedingly excited he gets in quite a frenzy. An e collar would never be an option for him or any of my dogs - managing his behaviour is the answer for him and myself. If you look on the terrier rescue website there is a very informative section about typical terrier behaviours written by people who deal with rehomed terriers every day of their lives and they agree that the approach we use with our terrier is the right way to go - have a look at their site and see how they manage all sorts of dogs without ever resorting to physical punishment .

Yes but their only managing the behaviour. This won't be suitable for all people and dogs!

It doesn't matter how high his drive is, we would start off at a big distance and gradually move closer to the prey item. When he takes an interest (just a look) we would use the e collar, move him away and when he looks away stop using the e collar.

Adam

Yes but their only managing the behaviour. This won't be suitable for all people and dogs!

Can you tell me why?

> Yes but their only managing the behaviour. This won't be suitable for all people and dogs!
>
> Can you tell me why?

Good question Harley :)

My last dog would chase sheep - if given the chance. It was easy enough to keep him on-lead near sheep and only let him off in places there were no sheep :)

I have 2 dogs, one would definitley chase sheep but is always kept on lead when sheep are around or should I say, we are around the sheep, the other dog shows no interest whatsoever in sheep, BUT being responsible I would never let him near sheep off lead,  no matter how much a dog is trained there is always a chance they can do something out of character.  Much better to reward train them and keep them safely on lead near livestock, roads, etc

I think the only dogs I would trust around livestock (and I might be wrong saying this) are guidedogs and I don't think they are trained with shock collars.

If anyone's interested in helping dogs not be shocked but also have a predatory chaser, here's a link to some workshops:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/predatory-chasing-seminar/

and the related arcticle with 2 small videos:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/

this guy is a recently retired police dog instructor, handler and also a university educated behaviourist.

Dogs must have their drives satisfied - I've never seen this addressed by shock collar enthusiasts,
which is a welfare issue. Also they are now using shock collars for basic training stuff - this is so wrong :(

Lindsay
x

Just my experience Harley but alot of people find themselves in situations we're they cannot manage predatory aggression and give the dog a quality of life.
The malamute mentioned in this thread is an example. When his owners got him they had an enclosed off lead place. They then moved to the country but found another. Six months ago that area was lost to them. They resorted to lead walks only but the dog became increasingly frustrated, started demolishing the house ect.
He then slipped his collar on a walk and killed two sheep. After that he was addicted and would try and slip his collar or get loose whenever the situation arose. He got out and killed another one and they called me.

With in three hours of working with sheep he was off lead with them in the field and taking no interest. I also improved his recall so they could let him off wherever, this means he now has lots of free running has stopped demolishing the home and is very happy.

The dog secrets guy approach is excellant if (and that's a huge if) you can prevent the dog getting a predatory high from the prey item for a long time. Not possible for many people. Even on the lead the malamute was excited by sheep or even the smell of sheep and was so busy looking for them (if you walked him were no sheep were) he couldn't care less about toys.

I always incorperate drive satisfaction into my training.

Another point, many peple want to walk their dogs off lead around livestock, moorland forest's ect. E collars are not cruel or painful and allow people to achieve that easily and humanely. Just a short wak on dartmoor at the weekend allowed me to see at least 12 dogs off lead with stock.

Adam

It's not just about toys though, it's about working on the dog's hardwiring.

In most places, you are not supposed to go anywhere near livestock unless the dog is under close control I believe (from memory) and according to a blokey from the electric collars manufacturers, its' fine to let them quite loose off lead. Yet it is known that dogs can scare sheep into  aborting just by being near to them, they don't have to actually chase them.

Animals and young children are both sentient. If there was a very young child that kept running off, would we use a shock collar on it? if not, why not?

They need to be banned. Beyond chasing (for which there is one remedy - lead) they are recommended for house training, basic training, and are becoming just too much of an everyday tool for some. Plus there are many dogs that have seriously suffered due to people using the collars - and dogs have also died because they've become aggressive and the owners can't live with it any more, and are scared  of it. Plus many who use them don't seem to actually care if the dogs are hurt by the shock or not. Plenty use them on levels that are way too high and very painful, and that is the dog's life - pain in training and exercising. I don't think that's good. What level they are used on is immaterial at the end of the day.

Anyway, all that aside, the point is that the shock collar is hopefully on the way to being completely banned, and many of us do think it's a very good thing.

Lindsay

Yes it's about the hard wiring but this dog was hardwired to chase sheep and I don't believe any amount of other stuff would have worked.

Re the lead statement. I'm afraid many many people do let their dogs off lead around stock and in other settings and have no troubler. Some will use a e collar to help with this. There are lots of remedy's to predatory chasing the e collar is the most humane and effective imo.

With regard to their other uses. Because the e collar is so humane and causes no pain I don't have a problem with using them to teach basic stuff if the dog hasn't responded to reward based methods.

Banning them will simply make things worse for the dog. Some people will continue to use them in secret and at a much higher level than needed. Others will use other aversive methods to control their dog, these methods are inevitably much harsher than the e colalr.

While you can do many wonderufl things with reward based stuff the relality is it's limited! The web and reward training books are full of advice not to let the dog off in an unenclosed space for months or years (or ever) the solutions to behaviour problems are often only partial and require lots of managment and all the time the dogs life is being made more restrictive.

Out and about I meet many dog owners with very well trained dogs who haven't followed an excluvisly reward based approach (they may not have used e collars either). Professionally I often work with dogs rejected by reward based trainers even ones who were recomended pts by members of leading organisations and yes I do use aversives with these dogs and yes they do respond and have a much happier life.

Adam

Adam,

Can I ask if you have any comments regarding the research paper I linked to regarding the effect of electric collars on dog behaviour.
  I'm all for a balanced debate, just wondered if you could extend your debate further than self promotion... (<- I don't mean that to be *as* scathing as it comes across in print!)

Yes it's about the hard wiring but this dog was hardwired to chase sheep and I don't believe any amount of other stuff would have worked.

We shall never know, but I know malamute owners who would never use a shock collar.

Re the lead statement. I'm afraid many many people do let their dogs off lead around stock and in other settings and have no troubler. Some will use a e collar to help with this. There are lots of remedy's to predatory chasing the e collar is the most humane and effective imo.

Well, perhaps they are breaking the law. Perhaps it depends on where you are. Some dogs off lead in a fied for instance have been shot for just being there. Trigger happy farmer maybe, but is it worth the risk? it's not about control here, it's about whether it's even good idea.

With regard to their other uses. Because the e collar is so humane and causes no pain I don't have a problem with using them to teach basic stuff if the dog hasn't responded to reward based methods.

Sorry Adam, the shock collar is not humane and it does cause pain. We know they do. Why do you say they do not?
It's all been said before ...

Banning them will simply make things worse for the dog. Some people will continue to use them in secret and at a much higher level than needed. Others will use other aversive methods to control their dog, these methods are inevitably much harsher than the e colalr.

Disagree, sorry.Too many dogs have already suffered at the hands of shock collar users for this statement to cut any ice...

While you can do many wonderufl things with reward based stuff the relality is it's limited!

Ha!  My dog can be recalled from deer she's put up, and this command was totally positively trained. I've trained her up to working trials standard, and there are plenty of people in the dog world doing very well, who choose reward methods because they are the most effective there are.

Out and about I meet many dog owners with very well trained dogs who haven't followed an excluvisly reward based approach (they may not have used e collars either). Professionally I often work with dogs rejected by reward based trainers even ones who were recomended pts by members of leading organisations and yes I do use aversives with these dogs and yes they do respond and have a much happier life.

And now take all that and turn it around and apply it to reward methods. Professionally plenty of trainers work with dogs who have had problems due to shock collars, etc etc ...

> The dog secrets guy approach is excellant if (and that's a huge if) you can prevent the dog getting a predatory high from the prey item for a long time.

I didn't get that impression from David Ryan's work at all.... in fact the opposite! Are you sure you have read up on this?

I'm all for a balanced debate, just wondered if you could extend your debate further than self promotion... (<- I don't mean that to be *as* scathing as it comes across in print!)

Reading this thread and other threads elsewhere on t'interweb with interest it seems clear to me that the supporters of shock collars restrict their argument to results and the use of the shock collar and are reluctant to extend the argument further, especially if it involves arguing the ethical treatment of animals.

In my mind whether the shock collar works or whether it is being misused is nothing more then a smoke screen, the real question we have to ask, and given that the research link to by HG strongly suggests, (using science speak), the shock collar does cause pain, both physical and emotional pain, is,  "Can I justify inflicting pain on a sentient mind because it's quicker over slower methods"

I've asked that question of a gun dog trainer, he was at least honest enough to say he uses it because time is money and his clients want results.

I think support of the shock collar is more to do with results then actually believing shock collars are harmless, and a reluctance to accept causing pain to an animal for no real purpose other then a human desire to bend an animals will is just plain wrong.

What do you think Adam?

That's a very good post Robert,

Lindsay
x

Husky GAL

The reactions of the dogs to the use of the colalr in the study, (lowering of body
posture, high pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirection aggression, tongue flicking) show that the collar was used too high. THis is why it caused problems.

Using the collar (as I do) at the first level the dog feels it and guiding the dog into the correct behaviour is very low stress and doesn't cause any harmful side effects.

Lindsay and Husky Gal.
The way I use the collar does not cause pain, when the dog feels it's first level of the sensation it will cock it's ears forward and look at the ground, that's it nothing more!
The collar is very useful in terms of rewarding (negative reinforcement) the correct behaviour.
While I appreciate your experience Linsay my experience is that some dogs are not responsive to reward based methods no matter how well its done. What happens to these dogs? Reduced quality or life or pts for behavioural problems. With an e collar these dogs ca be given a better life and even saved from destruction.

Adam

What happens to these dogs? Reduced quality or life or pts for behavioural problems

I personally believe that there are far worse situations than being PTS - a gentle end to a miserable life is far kinder than spending the rest of life being punished by electric shocks and living with constant stress.

The reactions of the dogs to the use of the colalr in the study, (lowering of body
posture, high pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirection aggression, tongue flicking) show that the collar was used too high. THis is why it caused problems.

Then why are the collars made with the ability to deliver that level of shock? If, as you seem to be saying, the shock is only a tickle and that is all that is needed to get the dog's attention  why would anyone need to make a collar with higher levels of pain that can cause the problems noted in the study?  It doesn't add up - if it's not necessary for the collar to work why include it?

The way I use the collar does not cause pain

I find your answer rather arrogant and extremely insensitive, it would seem you believe you are the only person able to use electric shock collars on these poor dogs without causing pain/harm.  

What happens to these dogs? Reduced quality or life or pts for behavioural problems. With an e collar these dogs ca be given a better life and even saved from destruction

And this?  You cannot genuinely believe that giving dogs electric shocks gives them a better quality of life, you seem to have no reasoning or logic in your beliefs, which is a great pity, you seem to have no idea of the harm you are causing to these poor animals :( 

I'd hate to come across as insensitve and uncaring as you do Adam, but I think these dogs would be better being pts than living in total fear of their owners/trainers shocking them when they see fit :(  the thought of what you do makes my stomach churn  :(

Adam, you haven't answered my question..............again.

Also you are promoting the incorrect use of the shock collar, in a previous post I put it to you that the shock collar is an aversive tool, using it on the lowest setting is not aversion.

Your going around in circles Adam, do you have any views on the welfare and emotional issues of using the shock collar?

I'm sorry but there's no way that I believe a dog with an extremely high prey drive would, if as you say, it tickles only on a low setting would stop it's want to chase!

I'm sorry but there's no way that I believe a dog with an extremely high prey drive would, if as you say, it tickles only on a low setting would stop it's want to chase!

I can guarantee that a tickle would not stop my dog.

No time now, but this is similar to what I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zgFTXmJKw4

Rightly or wrongly... have to say with the utmost respect: Adam you are active on TWO shock collar threads on here and others on other forums as well. I would pick your battles if I were you, as nobody here is going to be swayed by your arguments. It seems you have suddenly come into several dog forums with your ideas. I don't know what you are trying to achieve, but I can say you won't achieve it here, or on any other forums where positive reward based training is the norm.

I get the gist that you are a younger person - which means you possibly didn't experience the old fashioned style of dog training, popular until about 15 years ago, which involved a lot of punishment, lead-jerking, choke & check chains, stringing dogs up, Alpha-rolls, shouting, and a lot more borderline animal abuse. So, so many of us who did go through that and have now found much better methods, are going to be your greatest opponents because we saw & experienced (sometimes owned) dogs that were given the brute choice: submit or fail - and in those days, fail meant PTS.

MANY people now have rescue dogs - already abused by who knows who and by who knows how, sometimes horrifically. The only way these dogs can be brought round is by reward-based, gentle training that does not involve any hint of punishment or fear.

Just so you know where people of more experience and age are coming from... we really have been there and worn the T-shirt, and thank heavens there's an alternative now.

The reactions of the dogs to the use of the colalr in the study, (lowering of body
posture, high pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirection aggression, tongue flicking) show that the collar was used too high. THis is why it caused problems.

Adam, the collars are often used high - this is the reality. This appears to be especially the case in Europe with military dogs, and studies have shown the dogs are often highly stressed out and one dog even showed fear on the training ground 1.5 years after it had last worn a shock collar. You cannot get away from the fact that if you promote shock collars for dogs, then they will be used on high levels. Bear in mind too that in a lot of the studies, the collars are being used by expert dog handlers, not even pet dog handlers!

As for collars being used on lower levels - firstly the trainer can never tell from one moment to the next the dog's level of arousal, so there is no ongoing safe, kind level - there will always be pain/discomfort on a continuum. Secondly, many so called trainers in the US use this method of negative reinforcement, and the dogs are clearly suffering, IF the person viewing understands about stress, appeasement, dog behavour, body language, etc.

Lindsay
x

The way I use the collar does not cause pain, when the dog feels it's first level of the sensation it will cock it's ears forward and look at the ground, that's it nothing more!
The collar is very useful in terms of rewarding (negative reinforcement) the correct behaviour.

I know how you use them - this is how DC used them. And he supported people who used them on high levels, also, although he at first claimed they did not hurt at all!
As for rewarding - it's technically RELIEF, not actually a "reward". The application of an aversive (positive punishment) is necessary to experience the relief. Not Nice.

At the end of the day it's down to ethics and personal choices. Some are fine with using shock for even basic training - many others feel sickened and disturbed by it.

Lindsay
x

While I appreciate your experience Linsay my experience is that some dogs are not responsive to reward based methods no matter how well its done. What happens to these dogs? Reduced quality or life or pts for behavioural problems. With an e collar these dogs ca be given a better life and even saved from destruction

I think you are seeing problems where there are none. Firstly the foremost people in the UK who help dogs/owners re chasing do NOT recommend shock collars. These are successful people with a huge amount of experience.

Secondly, so many very successful people use reward methods in training as they are the most successful that that speaks for itself.

As for behaviour problems, the answer is not to use a shock collar but to find out the motivation for the behaviour and work with dog and owner to find tailored solutions.
Always the shock collar supporters answers boil down to "saving a life" and it's really, not as simple as that. It's also a very emotional argument designed to make people afraid.

Lindsay
x

I can guarantee that a tickle would not stop my dog.

And if it's only a tickle, we could just use a vibrating collar, right? ;)

No need therefore for shock.

Lindsay
x

which means you possibly didn't experience the old fashioned style of dog training, popular until about 15 years ago, which involved a lot of punishment, lead-jerking, choke & check chains, stringing dogs up, Alpha-rolls, shouting, and a lot more borderline animal abuse. So, so many of us who did go through that and have now found much better methods, are going to be your greatest opponents because we saw & experienced (sometimes owned) dogs that were given the brute choice: submit or fail - and in those days, fail meant PTS.

That is bang on the money, I've been there when I was in the army, at the time harsh methods were the norm and none of us in our ignorance knew any better, if I remember rightly, age dulls the mind, it took three or four times longer for a dog then to be signed off as fit for duty as it does today using kind methods of training, I recently spent a day at a Police dog training school where military GSD's are also trained , the difference is startling, and the results are amazing, a springer can be signed off as an active working police dog in less then 6 weeks from walking through the door as an untrained unwanted family pet to a focused efficient member of a team.

Now ignorance is no defence, and thank goodness most of us have moved on.

> Now ignorance is no defence, and thank goodness most of us have moved on.<br />

Hear hear!

> The reactions of the dogs to the use of the colalr in the study, (lowering of body
> posture, high pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirection aggression, tongue flicking) show that the collar was used too high. THis is why it caused problems.
>

> Adam, the collars are often used high - this is the reality.

In addition to the fact that people will use the collars to high, a yelp/scream from a dog can be a fear response, not just a pain response, so even on a low setting a dog may show it's fear through noise.

My last dog (rescue dog) was very vocal about being frightened. Eg, me washing floor, dog stood by bucket a small distance away from me, I lob cloth into bucket, dog sees cloth coming his was, cowers and screams :( He felt no physical pain atall, but was frightend in that situation (he was 4 yrs old when we got him so don't know the reason behind that sort of reaction.)

A frightend mind is not one that will be always learning what is trying to be taught to it and will easily make the wrong associations - very dangerous for those around it and very horrid for the dog :( :(