Thankfully things have now settled down again.  I kept the girls separated by a baby gate or a cage until Monday when I muzzled them both and let them meet again. It was all pretty uneventful. I kept them muzzled  when together for a couple of days, (Of course never leaving them unsupervised) and yesterday and today they have been together without their muzzles. They are both being good, there is no posturing ot antagonising by either of them and things seem to have settled back down to where we were before.
I spoke to the behaviourist yesterday and she said it is a hopeful sign that they did not actually bite each other hard enough to draw blood although it was fairly ferocious. Her main concern is that as they didn't reach a conclusion with the fight then it could happen again. She did say that if it does happen again then it might be an idea to let them finish the fight themselves unless it starts getting out of hand and they start doing each other some injuries. If they can fight it out and between themselves  they may well then be able to live together happily. Apparently this is much easier with dogs, bitches do take their fights much more seriously than males.
She gave me some more tips for how to split up fights and how to deal with them if they start disagreeing with each other again.

I bought a kennel and run when all these problems started but with the cold weather they haven't really used it but I will start getting them used to spending time in the kennel so I have somewhere to put one of them if I do have to split them up. I never leave them together when I go out.

I am feeling a little bit more hopeful that I might be able to sort this out and keep both of them.

We were given that advice when our boys first fell out, we muzzled them and let them fight it out. All that happened was that they fought each other into complete exhaustion, and the memory of that experience with all the fear and fury meant that they could not be in the same room as each other for a very long time. Over the next few years they gradually seemed to relax with each other, though they did have one or two fights still. Fingers crossed since we moved house they seem to have been alright to be out and around each other, though I still keep them separated when I go out.

I think we need to clarify what we mean by fights.

I would call a disagreement where there is no actual or intended damage done other than to the others pride 'a spat' and something that will arise from time to time in a multi-dog household, and is perfectly normal interaction, and may or may not need intervention to keep things cool.

A real 'fight' is where they cause or intend to cause damage to each other, and this is what can't be lived with, without segregation.

I have never had a real fight between any of my girls, but have had the odd spat, usually with cocky youngsters not accepting their place, or when a higher ranking one is getting older so someone else is trying their luck.

thats useful to know. The behaviourist didn't say it was definitely the way to go but was an option, but would need to be played very much by ear. I do hope it doesn't happen.

My two were drawing blood, and really meant it. But hopefully as I say, we have had no trouble for a long time. When hubby was away a few weeks back they even all 3 slept on my bed with no trouble. We'll have to be careful when we go on holiday though, I'm using 2 different friends for dogsitting again, and I don't want to restart the trouble when we get back, it's been so nice not having to leave one of them out of things while we are home.

In the case of my two girls I don't know whether you would call it a spat or a fight, It definitely looked like they were fighting. They were locked together for long enough for me to get the other two dogs shut up inside and were still at each other with the older one hanging on the neck of the younger one. I couldn't separate them, so I called my son to help and then it took two of us several minutes to get them apart, then my son accidently let go of the younger one and she went straight back into the fight, eventually we got them apart when I got a slip lead over the older girls head and dragged her into the house and shut the door between them with my son hanging onto the younger one as she was still grabbing at the older one, who incidentally did not want to go and wanted to carry on fighting.
The whole incident must have taken at least 10-15 minutes and it took me and my son who is 6ft tall all our strength to get them apart.
When I came to examine the girls I could not believe there were no injuries apart from a little nick on one face and a bare patch on a leg. When my younger girl had a fight with a previous bitch who has ow gone to live with a family member, there was blood everywhere and she needed about 20 stitches. I was expecting something similar this time as the fight seemed at least as fierce, but obviously neither of them were trying to injure each other to seriously. if thats a spat it seemed pretty serious.

> A real 'fight' is where they cause or intend to cause damage to each other, and this is what can't be lived with, without segregation.
>
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We have bitches that dont get on and now never will, but we live with it and no how to deal with it, we walk them with a male and its fine, plus they are swapped about between kennel and house, i never mix them now, bitches fight to the death, i would never part with any of them though, they meant to much to me.

A real 'fight' is where they cause or intend to cause damage to each other, and this is what can't be lived with, without segregation.

We had one in January, so just to illustrate how bad it can be -although this was an entire male dog deciding to have a go at a neutered male dog. The neutered dog ended up with between 60 and 70 wounds, it was a full month before we even knew if he was going to survive or not, despite the fact he weighs about 10 kgs MORE than the dog that went for him. The attacking dog got a few smaller bites plus an ear torn that will never heal. Needless to say, they will never, ever meet again. This is why I would never in a million years leave dogs to "fight it out" -I would not even trust it with muzzles on.

I had this with two GSD bitches once, they really hated one another and had to be seperated at all times. I had kennels then and they were in oposite ends of a block of 4. Just be warned though, one bitch had the tip of her paw under the edge of the Kennel run (Mesh welded to square tubing about 2 inches from the ground and solid!!) the other was out in the big enclosure surrounding my block ( an everyday occurance to let out each dog/dogs while I cleaned kennels, never a problem in 4 years!) and she suddenly grabbed the paw and managed to completly de-glove it up to the knee. The poor bitch in the kennel could do nothing to fight back and it was done in a flash! Luckily a shout from me and she let go and ran off, but the damage was done. I was horrified that she had been able to do so much damage so quickly. The funny part is that both were great with all the other dogs and bitches but just hated one another. She mended well though thanks to a good vet and still showed OK. But if I had attempted to "let them fight it out" one would have ended up dead, no doubt at all. Never again did I let one out without the other being closed in her kennel.
I hope you can sort this out but I would be very very vigilant at all times.
Aileen

Oh gosh MairianneB how awful for you. My girls are certainly have done nothing like that. are they both your dogs? are you going to rehome one of them?  Do you trust the agressor with the rest of your dogs now? as this is one of the reasons I think I would rehome my younger one .this is the second time she has taken a dislike to one of my dogs and  last time I rehomed the other dog with a family member but I don't want to run the risk of keeping her only to have her take a dislike to another dog down the line.

Merlot thanks for the warning. I have a kennel I will start to use more and I have put up a fence round it so if one is in the kennel the other can't get right up to the bars, It must have been horrific for you.  At least I am learning from these experiences.

Oh gosh MairianneB how awful for you. My girls are certainly have done nothing like that. are they both your dogs? are you going to rehome one of them?  Do you trust the agressor with the rest of your dogs now?

Both mine yes. Thankfully I was able to move the injured dog in with my mother in law who lives in a granny flat with us. She lost her Labrador at the end of last year so it worked out well -she gets another dog (two in fact, I didn't want to split him up from his sister) and I get to have my dog living really close to me without him having to live with the other dogs.

However the one that did the attacking then started on my other male neuter -not anywhere near as serious but then I was not going to take any risks so split them up instantly at the first sign of trouble. So I daren't trust him with anything male again and have to keep him kenneled now and walk him with bitches only. :( I don't like it, I don't "do" kenneling as a rule, my dogs live with me, but needs must. He comes in to sleep in the kitchen at night with the bitches and I move the other male into the living room so they both have their comforts. I'm too much of a wimp to leave a dog outside in a kennel all night, I feel sorry for him.

I'm lucky though that we have a front garden as big a the back garden, live in the country and am able to keep dogs apart permanently.

Sorry, but fight it out in a 'spat' - yes.  Fight it out in a real fight - No.  Why on earth would you allow the possibility for serious injury? 

Quite agree, and I would never allow a spat to escalate too far, and break things up fairly quickly, but I find it important to be equally stern with both.

I have tried the "fight it out in muzzles" on the advice of a behaviourist when 2 of my boys fell out and hurled at each other on sight. Never again !!!
It made matters worse and there was the "unfinished business" attitude from them both. After much soul searching I had one of the boys rehomed as I did not have the means to keep them apart 24/7 and felt one of them would be dead if I didn't. He went to an excellent home and I still keep in contact with his new owner, so know he is having a good life now with no fighting only a life of Riley with everything he could possibly need.

I agree Roxylady, I now think that the advice to let our boys fight it out was the worst thing we could have done. :-(

Just a thought, I know you said on another thread, when you were considering re-homing one, that you didn't want to go back to the breeder as she had something like 30 dogs and you felt you were the best placed for re-homing.  If your breeder has this many dogs, and has been breeding for a long time, then surely she must be pretty experienced in dog behaviour. Have you considered contacting her for advice regarding this matter? 
I know the breeder of my own dogs would always be my first port of call for advice, much more so than contacting a behaviourist, specially as I have met some behaviourists who don't even own dogs nor have they ever owned a dog. That's NOT a diss on behaviourists before any one leaps in :-)  But I'm lucky I guess in that the breeder of mine has also done a huge amount of rehabilitation work of very difficult and initially, non-rehomable dogs.
Anyway, just a thought.  I do hope you manage to sort it out.

I have  been in contact with the breeder but unfortunately she has not been very much help in solving the problem. She is very much still into pack leadership and dominance. She also keep her dogs mainly in kennels so I don't think she really understands how hard it is to keep 2 dogs together in the house when they don't get on.

This is why I would never in a million years leave dogs to "fight it out" -I would not even trust it with muzzles on.

Absolutely, and to me the suggestionm is a very worrying one - they have in the past done each other some damage haven't they.  A spat where there is some posturing and noise, is one thing, but to let them go at it when they are grabbing on to one another would just be a recipe for disaster.  Apart form the obvious risk of serious injury, you risk them never being comfortable around each other again, muzzles are there for extra security in the case of an accident and as management, they should never be use to let dogs get on with it.  The fact that can't do each other any damage with their teeth doesn't exclude the risk of damage and certainly doesn't exclude the risk of the dogs becoming more fearful and uncomfortable around each other potentially risking it being something that ruins any chance of them being able to be around each other without greater risk.

I would strongly advise you to not go down this path - was this an APBC member that advised you to do this?

Sounds as if yours was a fight but that the dogs were fairly inhibited in their biting, which IMO is is a good sign. Do you recall what the trigger/s were? did the behaviourist suggest a veterinary check up for one or both dogs? :) as sometimes illness can cause an alteration in behaviour, or aggression.

Fighting it out? No no no, no every time!

It may be one of those very odd things that you never find the answer to.

I'd suggest Pat McConnell's book about "Feeling Outnumbered, how to live in a multi dog household" .

If you do any kennelling, do be extremely careful is one is in and one is out, as it may be cause for upset (as the dog in the kennel may see it as punishment, esp. if the other is with the family).

Lindsay
x

Yes, the bahviourist is an APBC member. She didn't  say that I should let them fight it out with or without muzzles, this has been what some other people have tried with bad results. What she did say is that as they were fairly inhibited in their biting and had not done much damage to each other if it was possible to let them finish the fight then they might come to a conclusion and it could solve the problem. but that I would need to play the situation very much by ear as it could go either way.
Hearing other peoples experiences how things have got worse when they have tried this then I will probably stick with separating them if they have any further altercations and watching for triggers to try to prevent incidents.

Sounds as if yours was a fight but that the dogs were fairly inhibited in their biting, which IMO is is a good sign. Do you recall what the trigger/s were? did the behaviourist suggest a veterinary check up for one or both dogs? <img alt=":-)" src="/images/default/sml_pos.png" class="sml" /> as sometimes illness can cause an alteration in behaviour, or aggression.<br />

Yes they have both had check ups at the vets and are in good health. I was playing with them in the garden. I do know this can cause some friction and keep careful watch to keep the girls playing with their own toys and keep arousel levels low. In this case my attention was diverted for a minute so I didn't actually see exatly what happened and how the fight started. the usual scenario is the younger one decides she wants the toy the older one has and goes to get it and snarks at her to get it. Usually the older one doesn't argue but just lets her take it, but I suspect she may have just decided that enough is enough and decided to put the youngster in her place.
Certainly since this last altercation the older one has been the one to do more posturing and giving the youngster hard stares where she used to be a fairly easy going.
Thanks for the waring about kenneling. I haven't done much so far. It is not so much the separating that seems to cause the problems here, but letting the dogs back together again after they have been apart seems to cause some tension. of course I can't leave them together all the time as I separate them if I am not around to watch them

<br />Sounds as if yours was a fight but that the dogs were fairly inhibited in their biting, which IMO is is a good sign. Do you recall what the trigger/s were? did the behaviourist suggest a veterinary check up for one or both dogs? <img alt=":-)" src="/images/default/sml_pos.png" class="sml" /> as sometimes illness can cause an alteration in behaviour, or aggression.<br />

Yes they have both had check ups at the vets and are in good health. I was playing with them in the garden. I do know this can cause some friction and keep careful watch to keep the girls playing with their own toys and keep arousel levels low. In this case my attention was diverted for a minute so I didn't actually see exatly what happened and how the fight started. the usual scenario is the younger one decides she wants the toy the older one has and goes to get it and snarks at her to get it. Usually the older one doesn't argue but just lets her take it, but I suspect she may have just decided that enough is enough and decided to put the youngster in her place.
Certainly since this last altercation the older one has been the one to do more posturing and giving the youngster hard stares where she used to be a fairly easy going.
Thanks for the warning about kenneling. I haven't done much so far. It is not so much the separating that seems to cause the problems here, but letting the dogs back together again after they have been apart seems to cause some tension. of course I can't leave them together all the time as I separate them if I am not around to watch them