Hi,

I am looking into importing some frozen semen from a dog in Australia. The breeder of the stud dog has requested that we have the bitch inseminated surgically as generally only one mating is required with this procedure as it maximises the bitches chances of becoming pregnant. (I am assuming this is the method she has used in the past, which is why she has suggested it rather than the normal AI method).

I have googled this procedure and found another type of AI called Trans-Cervical insemination which is done with a rigid endoscope, with this method the bitches owner can be present and see the actual insemiantion on a tv monitor, the other good thing about this method is that the bitch would not have to be sedated.  I was just wondering if anyone has any experience of either of these AI procedures good or bad and what the cost was? As I am guessing it would have to be done by a vet that specialises in this field. I asked my vet about the surgical method, he had personally not done any AI work so couldnt really give me much info but said he would look into it for me.

Thanks

Take a look on fit and fertile, all contact details on there, Keith is very very helpful, good luck x

Thanks very much Annastasia will do that x

The Kennel Club and BVA seem to be very anti surgical AI. Link to KC's page on AI below:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/478

Interesting stuff on that link; and the KC's information guide linked from that page goes into greater detail.

It certainly seems that a vet is unlikely to perform surgical insemination because of the RCVS ruling.

My bitch had a trans cervical insemination last September.  Day 19 she ovulated so we went straight up to the Vet doing the Ai. 

The Vet gave her a very small pre-med and she stood still, and I was with her, while the Vet did the insemination.

She was not stressed in the slightest.  I reckon the whole thing took about half an hour.

Unfortunately the Ai didn't work, but she is now pregnant from 2 proper matings, mated on day 18 and 20, so I don't know who/what was to blame for the failure of the Ai. 

I think there is about an 80% success rate with this procedure and generally litters are smaller.  I don't think I'd have been happy for her to have had to have gone down the surgical route to get pregnant though and for me personally, I wouldn't go for the Ai again.  But I do know people that have had great success with it.

We've had 2 of our bitches artificially inseminated using the trans-cervical method, it was quick and relatively stress free for the bitch, we blood tested to get the correct day, and did one insemination on that day.  Both times resulted in a litter, though perhaps the litters were slightly smaller than average (5/6 pups whereas average is about 8).

Hi

the rules re AI have changed in recent years. You no longer need KC permission for an AI mating but it must be done Trans Cervical. You can apply to the KC for permission for surgical BUT to get permission you would need an outstanding reason.

I have had two surgical inseminations with frozen semen pre rule changes and unfortunately got no pups. My bitch was in whelp but reabsorbed twice - normal litters of 8 and 10 with natural matings pre and post AI attempts. I have a daughter form this bitch and may consider an AI with her to remaining semen however I have been advised that even with her I would be unlikely to get permission for surgical without first trying a TC .

K

>I have a daughter form this bitch and may consider an AI with her to remaining semen

She will have to have a natural litter first, because of the KC rules:

" the Kennel Club will not register a litter produced by AI from one of her female progeny, unless the said progeny has already produced at least one registered litter naturally."

>> I have a daughter form this bitch and may consider an AI with her to remaining semen
> She will have to have a natural litter first, because of the KC rules:
>
> " the Kennel Club will not register a litter produced by AI from one of her female progeny, unless the said progeny has already produced at least one registered litter naturally."

The daughter, klb speaks of, isn't from the result of AI as both attempts failed, the daughter must be from a naturally conceived litter.

Friends in Australia had 2 of their bitches mated trans cervically but this was many years ago (1993) when it was a new procedure, the semen coming from a UK dog.  One bitch had one pup, the other had 6.

>The daughter, klb speaks of, isn't from the result of AI as both attempts failed, the daughter must be from a naturally conceived litter.

Apologies. My mistake. :-)

As Christine the bitch I am talking about is from a natural mating to a UK dog out of the dam I tried to get a litter from via AI to an Australian stud.

I must say success rates with TC do not fill me with great confidence, especially as we failed with surgical which has better success rates.  I have the only remaining straws of semen on ice (the dog died of a snake bite shortly after we collected him) so when I do pluck up courage to try again I really want the best possible chance of a litter ..... hence I would opt for surgial if I could.

K

Thanks everyone for your replies. I was very intersted to see the KC link regarding their rules on the surgical method. To be honest I wasnt keen on this procedure anyway and felt the trans-cervical method sounded better and less stressful for the bitch.  Although from your comments it doesnt seem hugely successful. I would be mortified to go to all that trouble and expense for it not to work, those of you who have had the trans - cervical procedure done how much did it actually cost was it expensive and did it have to be done by a specialist vet?

Thanks
x 

Fit and Fertile are very good, the main cost isn't the insemination it's the collection/storage/importing costs that would add up, I'm sure they would give you all the relevant advice

With the costs of AI, the red tape, and the low success rate (only two successes in my breed in the UK), is the reason I am choosing to travel with the bitch to use the stud naturally (of course no good if the stud is dead or no longer fertile).

Of course the bitch may still miss, and we would have paid the air shipping (roughly £1500 with fees) and our own air fares to USA, plus other expenses in vain.

This is concern I had initially about this whold thing it seems there are no gaurantee's the bitch will conceive after all this. Although I did get a really nice email back from F&F answering all my quesitons. I am now wondering if perhaps its worth doing if there doesn't seem to be a very good success rate. The bitch I had been thinking about using this method on actually has a pet passport so perhaps it may well be easier to try and find a nice male in Europe and take her out there and do a natural mating. Thanks everyone for your input on this subject as always a wealth of very useful information.

The best success rate is with natural mating, but of course you need a laid back bitch who is a happy traveller.

We have had 3 successful AI litters in the UK in Large Munsterlanders.      Two for the same breeder using the same semen but on different bitches.  I don't know what insemination techniques were used but the litters consisted of 6 pups in each if my memory serves me correctly.

Munsters tend to have large litters though don't they so 6 would be a small litter for them, maybe that helps.

Only succeeded in our breed, in the UK, twice 30 years apart, 6 in the most recent litter, a lot of very expensive failures in our breed with all methods. and various specialists.

Some lines have large litters *eerrrrmmmmm* but the more thoughtful bitches have about 8-10.

Friends in NZ were AI is very common place were told by their inseminating vet that AI litters will be three quarters the number of a normal sized litter, so if the average in a breed is 8-9, then you are looking at 5-6 by AI.

Haven't done TC but this is my experience of surgical with will be very similar in most respects ::

1.. Yes you need a repro specialist your local vet can't do this.

2. Import semen - stress !! You need an import licence from DEFRA and original must travel with shipment so you need to get this in plenty of time and post out to shipping agent. Semen needs to be collected under export conditions for UK. I bought a dry shipper as it was difficult to find anyone in oz to loan one. I paid all cost for export collection and storage Oz side, cost of shipper/filling with lq nitrogen , agent fees to manage cargo booking and AQSI inspection clearance at airport. Collection semen uk airport, quarentine clearance fees and booking in fees at UK vet plus storage UK. This cost me £2000.00 in 2002 so will be higher now.

3. Insemination / vet costs soon add up ....  blood progesterones need to be taken alternate days from approx day 6 to pin point ovulation and accurately time AI, frozen semen is only viable post thaw for a few hours so timing is vital. Fresh semen can live for up to 5 days so much greater window of opportunity for fertilisation. My bitch wasn't ready for AI until day 27 = 11 blood tests at £35. Current ball park costs for AI are £175 for TC and £248 for surgical (some vets will do this if TCI route fails but you need to apply to KC to register any pups resulting from surgical insemination - vet will need to provide evidences)

4. TCI can be difficult and is technically challenging but bitches sem to tollerate procedure well. % sucess rates with AI are much lower than with natural mating, and TCI is lower than with surgical at least in UK at this time. There are however exceptions to all rules and a friend had a litter of 11 with surgical AI (pre rule changes) and then had a litter of  13 with TCI (after rule changes) with different bitch 

5 would I import frozen again .. probably not at this point in time as we don't seem to have the success that the US, Australian and NZ folks have with AI in UK. I probably would consider import of chilled semen from european dog (must have pet passport) as this is more sucessful. Alternatively travel to European dog.  

K

We did a surgical insemination with frozen semen from Austrlia very successful

I do TCI as a matter of course with frozen semen.I also do surgical implants in accordance with the RCVS practice direction.However the majority of frozen semen matings are done via TCI.
I am constantly achieving a conception rate of between 94 and 97% with litter sizes no different to the ones which have been done surgically. On average I would do approx 5 per week .
TCI when done propertly is just as good as the outdated surgical method.It is ethically more acceptable from a welfare point of view.The bitch does NOT need to be sedated and the whole procedure takes approx 10 mins from start to finish.
I am aware that some vets are attempting to circumvent the kennel club regs by claiming that they have tried to do the insemination via TCI but it is not possible so therefore they HAD to cut the bitch open an do her surgically. I would suggest that this is solely down the lack of skill on the part of the practictioner .I have scoped over 600 bitches and only ever found 2 that it was impossible to inseminated via TCI