Evolving, as so often do, from previous threads, I ask the question - would running a "Dog Rescue" site be a profitable form of income?

From personal experience, I know that we have never had an income/made a profit  from the litters of puppies that we have bred (some 8 litters over something like 35 years and thanks to other forms of income we survived) - breed rescues survive by dint of generous conributions by successful beeders - but what about those who do run "Rescues" - how do they survive?

I do know that Inland Revenue used to allow 3 years' losses in setting up a business - is this the method by which Rescues survive?  Many website Rescues do not show Charitable Registration Nos, so cannot be run by charities - so how do they survive?

Sorry - I suddenly realised that the second part of what I intended to post did not materialise!

To continue ...

Running a Rescue is obviously an honourable calling - I know that those who run Aussie Rescue and Lab Rescue do it with no thought of reward - but I also know that there are Dog Wardens who also run Rescue centres - and also others who run Rescues which by their very nature cannot afford to run at a loss - so again - if one was advising a dog-mad youngster who wished to work with dogs as a career - would this be a way of making a living - paying one's rent????

I am running at a huge loss every year for 13 years now. My van is 12 years old :-p and I can't remember when I've last been onm hols, it's been years.

What kind of mentality would want to profit out of rescue?
I guess some rescues need to employ people and give them a living wage, but that's not profit.

i dont think the op meant she wanted to profit out of rescue. surely you have to be allowed to have enough to eat in this world? i think she meant can anyone survive doing rescue as a living?

> What kind of mentality would want to profit out of rescue?
> I guess some rescues need to employ people and give them a living wage, but that's not profit.

No, I'm not contemplating a career change at my time of life ! - but I have been looking at the plethora of Rescue Sites on the web, some of which seem quite large.   Obviously the charities - RSPCA, Wood Green etc -  can pay living wages to some of the people who work there and some will be volunteers.   But the others - do they all exist on volunteers?

I personally know of a small rescue which is run entirely on volunteers with no paid staff at all. The owner always runs at a loss and relies on donations to help pay the vet bills. They have no holidays and do it purely for the love of animals.

Presumably the only income available to a general rescue would be donations and sale of dogs.  They might qualify for some kind of grant from their local authority.  The rescue themselves would need to actively raise funds to help cover their expenses.

It's very hard to see exactly where any profit could come from...

However it's possibly the sort of business which could be combined with other activities - farming, boarding kennels, dog training.  This sort of combined business could help subsidise the rescue element

I personally know of a small rescue which is run entirely on volunteers with no paid staff at all. The owner always runs at a loss and relies on donations to help pay the vet bills. They have no holidays and do it purely for the love of animals.

I foster for one of those.  It's been running four years and the founder now does it full time, and all the bills for the rescue are paid by donations/fundraising.  The other main person relies a lot on her husband for bills etc but does Betterware to supplement their income.  I am building up work as a dog behaviourist for my own income and looking at selling some dog stuff too, so I don't have to do full time work and can still help out.

Thinking on your question, as I have been. Im not sure a dog rescue can be profitable. Set aside volunteer ones the average wage is poor and many people do it out of love. The one aspect that can be profitable is dog sitting I think.
Take my two they always go to the same place as Im happy with her set up and care, plus they pull my arms off getting in!! I pay £15 for both and provide all the food and bedding ect and its cheap at twice the price.

However i would love someone to live in with my two even more, but that is hellishly expensive so I am sticking with tried and tested. Plus I have an arrangement with our vet and if either pampered pooch needs the vet they will be treated and I pick up the bill when I get home, so i can be safe and secure knowing our two are fine.

But rescueing dogs would mean food and lodgings for free! unless Disctrict Council or charity supported.

I do give when I can and give regulalrly to a rescue for BC's but Id do more if I coud. But will it ever make money? I do not think so.

Picking your brains Otterhound being in the know.

Firstly I would like to say that I applaud all rescues, your wonderful, God bless you all for all the tireless, hard work you put in to helping homeless dogs.  :-)

I know many rescues now do charge somewhere between £100-200 for a dog (not a bad thing IMO as it goes towards keep, but also makes sure people seriously want a dog and are not just popping in on a whim) they are often called making a donation as opposed to a sale? Does this make a difference to tax and does it get shown on the accounts being a donation? Could someone unscrupulous be able to not plough it back into rescue, I'm playing Mrs Bad Guy here. :-)

Also, how do donations work i.e on the books, tax etc, many rescues have websites which ask for donations  (with gift aid etc too) and I would expect many get private donations from wealthy people too aswell as people leaving to rescues in their will. How are these shown on the books, or is it down to trust that the money goes where it is supposed to?

Finished playing devils advocate, just wondering if there was out of the 99% of good rescues a way for someone to secretly make a profit.

> Finished playing devils advocate, just wondering if there was out of the 99% of good rescues a way for someone to secretly make a profit.

Oh there is - there are the 'rescues' who don't neuter, vaccinate, or get medical treatment for the dogs in their care; the ones who don't bother to keep the place clean and hygienic; the ones who don't put the heating on in winter.  Saves a LOT of money that way, especially if they were to feed really rubbish food, and the rest of the donation could be pocketed.  Cut out the costs of getting vet references, travelling to do homechecks etc - more money 'saved'.

Not much better than puppy farms really, but sadly they do exist.  And a lot of people will just hand dogs over without caring where they are going to.

There are ways rescues can save a bit of money without neglecting the dogs - WYDR (who I foster for) don't use kennels at all, at any stage of the rescue process - each and every dog is cared for in a foster home, and if there are no spaces, then the dog is kept with the current owner until one is available - otherwise they are referred to another rescue if that's not possible.

That way kennelling fees and costs are avoided - WYDR still pays for the vet and feeding costs (at least that option is there for the fosterer, we claim for what we need to), but the daily cost is less without having to pay to physically house the dogs.  But the only way to really cut the costs in order to actually make money would be as above - decent donations and neglect.

It's not something I could do - which is one of the many reasons I don't actually run a rescue lol!

> Picking your brains Otterhound being in the know

I know of many rescues who run at a profit but I have yet to figure out how.

If I would charge that much money for rehoming a dog then no one here in Ireland would adopt them, that's for sure - don't know about the UK rescues.

It's called a rehoming fee, a donation is different as one does not expect something in return for that.

On the donations I get I couldn't feed a guinea pig so alot of my own money vanished into the rescue over the years.

The bigger ones who can afford to run ads or engage professional fundraisers are the ones with the profit or else the smaller ones who do not give good care to the dogs in their charge, don't neutere/spay or vacc etc. Plenty of them around.

>I know many rescues now do charge somewhere between £100-200 for a dog (not a bad thing IMO as it goes towards keep, but also makes sure people seriously want a dog and are not just popping in on a whim) they are often called making a donation as opposed to a sale?

5 or so years ago we adopted a dog from Manchester Dogs Home.  At that time crossbreeds were £50 and pedigrees were £70.  This part of the payment was a sale but we were asked if we were willing to donate on top of that and it was a different line on the receipt.

So I think particularly from the latter posts, that a good rescue ends up with hardly any or no profit at all and often hanging on by the skin of their teeth, with everything going into looking after their charges a job one would only take on for the love of what you do and not as a way to make an income. :-)

However, it is possible to make good profit if a rescue cuts corners or has large donations via becoming high profile, either by advertising or perhaps by having some sort of celeb type attachment to work off, that really would bring in the money.  I also wonder about the ones that charge for the dogs they home, but terminate the life of those who they find un-saleable that way they do not have any longterm care bills and the turn around would be quick and also perhaps profitable.

I would imagine it is very hard for independant rescues to make any profit.

I know a couple who have been involved with rescue's for about twenty years, they were an established boarding kennels that agreed to take in dogs from other oganisations. This then lead to them becoming a registered rescue charity in thier own right.

They are always full to capacity and the boarding kennels are now a means of subsidising the rescue, rather than providing them with an income. They do it purely for thier love of the dogs. They charge a nominal fee for rehoming which of course helps, and have reccently started organising events such as dog walks and a dog fostering scheme for the dogs which will probably never be rehomed.
Its hard work, and i doubt anyone would go into running a rescue if thier motive was to make money.

I'm running a table quiz next week, thankfully it was organised for me so I didn't have to do a thing which is great!

if you look at the KC accounts it appears they fund rescues as well

could I just say that around here I see some of the animal rescue centres as being part of the circle that involves puppy farmers, traders and in turn these rescue centres, all needing each other. The rescue centre by and large is advertising "ex-breeding bitches / stud dogs" very rarely an out and out stray or dogs left by elderly lady after her death etc. These dogs are rehomed for about £200 each and there is a constant steady stream of them available from the puppy farmers, if they don't hang around too long a good profit if not too much vet attention is needed. the puppy farmers in turn now have somewhere to off load their middle aged animals..too old to breed with or the ones who have had caesareans. They just drive up with them and they are taken in no questions asked. What else would they do with these old animals? Only so many they can take to the vet and have put down without the vet asking questions. Only so many can be got rid of "free to a good home" on epupz. Out with the old and in with the new as often as you like but not so easily done without the "rescue" centres. Just as the supply of puppies they produce would be harder to get rid of without traders and commercial outlets.
Just the way I see it. Some recue places to a sterling job and breed specific ones are invaluable but the type of place I mention with their ever open begging bowls  seem totally immoral.

What else would they do with these old animals?
The usual way is to bash them over the head with a lump of wood and throw them into a hole in the ground. A few years ago the RSPCA managed to close down an illegal breeder (puppy farmer) for cruelty not too far from where I lived, he moved house to the sticks in Scotland where he is doing the same thing again. The new owner of the house, on digging the garden found dogs skeletons buried all around the garden. Some adults and some pups, all the adults had had their skulls bashed in. I think that just about says it all, and without a doubt he is doing the same thing again in Scotland

Whilst most rescues are genuine, care responsibly  for the animals and rehome with all the safeguards in place to ensure that in the case of dogs that they neutered, spayed and go to the right homes.  There are others that may appear to be doing the right thing on the surface but a deeper look into the running of the rescue may bring rather surprising results. For an example a rescue maybe a registered charity and have hundreds of dogs going through its books but by checking with the Charities Commission it may be found that even though the income of the charity justifies it keeping accounts and submitting them each year to the Charity Commisssion they have not done so for years. It maybe that all funds have been used correctly but without accurate record keeping and the availability to check accounts by the public who can tell.  This is one way, another is if rescues are run as a non profit making limited company by guarantee, because the accounts are not available (as far as I know) in the public domain for scrutiny.  Therefore all funds raised by supporters, legacies left and monies received for the dogs and cats go into the one pot and the public have to trust that all money raised is used for good purposes that benefit the animals and the rescue as a whole and that does not  include the benefit of the holders of the funds as a personal account for their own uses as well as those of the rescue.  So is there an opportunity for abuse of funds in rescue?   Yes, I believe there is by the unscrupulous, as there is in any walk of life unfortunately, I think it is extremely sad to think that there are rescues that can operate in such a way to make personal gain through the unfortunate dogs and cats that cost them nothing to acquire in the first place but become a valuable commodity, a way of making money even though they may be seen to being doing things correctly such as neutering, spaying, vaccinating and home checking.  They operate their rescues more as businesses, high volume (dogs) but the low costs (outgoings) through having massive fund raising, low kennel costs (fosterers) sponsership and lots of very trusting supporters who are always able and willing to support unquestionably the rescue.                         

" breed rescues survive by dint of generous conributions by successful breeders"

I wish!!!!!!
We run a breed rescue and our major sources of income are (a) the money raised through fundraising; and (b) donations paid by those who adopt rescued dogs. By far our largest outgoing is veterinary fees - speying/neutering, vaccinations, microchipping, treatments etc. At present our vet bill is running at approx £12,000 per year. We have never received a penny (or any support for that matter) from "successful breeders" in our breed.
All our staff are 100% voluntary and the only payment any of them get is the reimbursement of genuine expenses occurred on welfare business.
We have been in operation for 3 years now and through most of our first year we didn't even ask for a donation for adopted dogs (we were a little too naive and idealistic but grim reality soon changed that).
I think that the only time you can actually make a profit out of rescue is if you are totally corrupt. For example, there are one or two puppy farmers within our breed who also masquerade as "rescues" - they take in unwanted dogs free and sell them straight out again for £300-£400.

> " breed rescues survive by dint of generous conributions by successful breeders"
> I wish!!!!!!

It doesn't have to be financial.... it can be time, space, care, or the efforts of even a few people sitting on the phone/internet trying to find foster homes, get the word about, or being available to vet prospective new owners. Or even keep their eyes/ears open when dogs come into mainstream rescue and TRY to either alert their original breeder or get them into the right kind of home. Maybe 'successful breeders' in some breeds can't spare the time or bother.

could I just say that around here I see some of the animal rescue centres as being part of the circle that involves puppy farmers, traders and in turn these rescue centres, all needing each other. The rescue centre by and large is advertising "ex-breeding bitches / stud dogs" very rarely an out and out stray or dogs left by elderly lady after her death etc. These dogs are rehomed for about £200 each and there is a constant steady stream of them available from the puppy farmers, if they don't hang around too long a good profit if not too much vet attention is needed. the puppy farmers in turn now have somewhere to off load their middle aged animals..too old to breed with or the ones who have had caesareans. They just drive up with them and they are taken in no questions asked. What else would they do with these old animals? Only so many they can take to the vet and have put down without the vet asking questions. Only so many can be got rid of "free to a good home" on epupz. Out with the old and in with the new as often as you like but not so easily done without the "rescue" centres. Just as the supply of puppies they produce would be harder to get rid of without traders and commercial outlets.
Just the way I see it. Some recue places to a sterling job and breed specific ones are invaluable but the type of place I mention with their ever open begging bowls  seem totally immoral

...could this be an opportunity for JH to do another expose - " Rescue centres Exposed ? " - I have long felt that some rescues 'feed' off the puppy farm trade -

Yvonne

> ...could this be an opportunity for JH to do another expose - " Rescue centres Exposed ? " - I have long felt that some rescues 'feed' off the puppy farm trade -
>
> Yvonne

Now that would be interesting :)

"Now that would be interesting"

No it wouldn't! It would be a complete and utter nightmare!
I can see it now - it would no doubt be as biassed and unbalanced as the PDE programme and would leave the public with the completely erroneous impression that all rescues are on the take and in league with the puppy farmers. JH wouldn't know a balanced report if she was smacked in the face with it!

I would love to see a good, factual scientific survey on rescues - that would be interesting, but don't let JH anywhere near it - she is clueless.

:) :) :)

> The rescue centre by and large is advertising "ex-breeding bitches / stud dogs" very rarely an out and out stray or dogs left by elderly lady after her death etc. These dogs are rehomed for about £200 each and there is a constant steady stream of them available from the puppy farmers

One place I know of that rehmoes mainly ex-breeders is not out to make any kind of a profit.  They are doing it because the alternatives for the dogs don't bear thinking about.  They were challenged on it not long ago, from the viewpoint of supporting the farmers by removing the stock taking up space.

They explained that whether they take the ex-breeders or not makes no difference whatsoever.  If they don't take them, the farmers will get rid of them by any other means - bash to the head, shooting, poison, dumping, anything.  They have no emotional attachment to them so make no provision for them once their 'useful' lives are over, they just get rid and replace.  What the rescue does is take the dogs rather than letting them suffer horribly through any one of the above possibilities.  Also this particular rescue has no idea where the farm itself is - they are always met on random country lanes.  The reason they have mostly ex-breeders is location - there are a lot of puppy farms near them.

It's a catch 22 IMHO. Alot of stuff goes on behind the scenes in rescue and sometimes one has to make a deal with the devil to save a dog. However, I believe that we need a stronger lobby to stop the practise of puppy farming. Simply taking the dogs is not good enough each case needs to be documented including vet statements etc and once enough a accumulated it need to be brought forward.

I agree but what is the solution? either way a dog suffer's. I think a lot of time back yard breeders and puppy farmers win because there are people like you and us to take on these dogs. If it was a hard job to dispose of old dogs it would curtail it more IMO.
But I cannot bear the thought of the suffering of a dog! so we continue to house, rescue and place these animals.

Unless there is an effective monitoring and licensing authority established this will go on and on, and the govt arent going to assist they have their own problems. I think the RSPCA is not the correct vehicle either they atre a chariuty albeit funded it needs to be an authority with teeth (excuse the pun) taht can fine and confiscate animals in need.

No, we must all continue to help and lobby and maybe, maybe one day we will win.

I have just had an interesting conversation with a journalist who is investigating a well known rescue here in Ireland for misuse of funds. Doesn't surprise me tbh.

I hope it raises alarm bells over here!

The charity status here is very different from the UK, in fact, registered charity here means diddly squat.

"Registered" Charities
There is no such thing as a registered charity in Ireland. There is no requirement that charities register nor is there any facility for them to do so. Some organisations do state on their notepaper that they are registered charities or give what they describe as their registered charity number. This is incorrect. The number is usually the charity number allocated by the Revenue Commissioners (CHY number) which recognises that the organisation is a charity for the purposes of the tax laws. It does not make it a "registered charity" and it does not involve the Revenue Commissioners having any supervisory role. In England and Wales, charities are obliged to register with the Charity Commissioners who exercise a supervisory role. It is accurate for these charities - some of which also operate in Ireland - to describe themselves as registered charities.

There is no register of charities available in Ireland. The Revenue Commissioners have a list of the organisations which qualify for charities tax relief and a list of those organisations which meet the conditions for tax relief on donations. These are probably the most extensive listings of charitable bodies available.
www.revenue.ie

What is a Charity?
The current legal definition of a charity derives from very old laws and a court case in the 19th century. The Charities Acts of 1961 and 1973 do not define a charity - they are concerned with particular aspects of charity activity and are only marginally relevant in the context of charities and tax.

The original legislation on which the definition of charity is based was passed in England in 1601 and applied to Ireland in 1634. The 1601 Act has an interesting list of activities which were then considered charitable, for example, the repair of bridges, ports and havens and the marriage of poor maids.

In a court case (Pemsel 1891) charities were classified under four main headings. These are the headings which are used by the Revenue Commissioners to decide to allow or not to allow tax exemption. An organisation may be recognised as eligible for tax exemption if its purposes are for one of the following:
* the relief of poverty
* the advancement of religion
* the advancement of education
* other purposes beneficial to the community

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> It's a catch 22 IMHO. Alot of stuff goes on behind the scenes in rescue and sometimes one has to make a deal with the devil to save a dog. However, I believe that we need a stronger lobby to stop the practise of puppy farming. Simply taking the dogs is not good enough each case needs to be documented including vet statements etc and once enough a accumulated it need to be brought forward.

All very well but that's why the farmers have the rescue meet them somewhere neutral - then even if the rescue had visual evidence of the person, they have no way whatsoever of proving that that person is responsible for what's happened to the dog, or that the dog was ever connected with that person in terms of farming.  Until there is a way to prove inarguably that these dogs belong to these farmers then no case can be brought against them.  And as the farmers won't ID the dogs by chip or tattoo for that very reason, it's a lost cause. :-(

> If it was a hard job to dispose of old dogs it would curtail it more IMO.

But it isn't.  As I said earlier - it doesn't matter a jot to the farmers whether a rescue takes the dogs or not.  If they do, they do.  If they don't, the farmer will shoot/bludgeon/abandon the dogs or give them away to someone - they have no scruples about 'disposing' of these dogs once their useful lives are over.  If the rescue don't take them they'll just end up dead or straying.

The only way to stop these farmers is to hit them in the pocket - reduce demand and increase costs.

We know that the general public play into the hands of the puppy farmer by 'saving' the poor, sickly and downright sad little puppies produced.

Take one and it leaves a vacuum - so breed more - public saves another one.... a vicious circle in which the rescues have unwittingly become accomplices.

I suppose it would take a short period of suffering to put the brakes on this process but it's dogs we are talikng about....and for many a step too far.

It seems a problem good hearted people cant solve - over to the politicians !!

Sorry but that is downright irresponsible. If someone hands in a dog to me then he/she must sign a surrender form (stray/owner/rescue/other). How else can the books be kept straight? How else do you have a legal leg to stand on should the dog have been stolen etc?

I leave a papertrail a mile long every year for my rescue.

Hi Carrington, in regards rescue centres that are only that in name. A few years ago I went to a stables/rescue kennels to help a friend collect a truck load of breeze blocks ,while he was chatting to owner I went over to look at dogs, I noticed one young lurcher bitch with rash and severe hair loss to flanks and rear legs. when I returned I asked about her and what treatment she was getting for her rash, the owners response was "what rash" After unloading breeze blocks I took the car back to kennel and re-homed her (£75-00 cost) I took her straight to my vet and we started a treatment course for her, rash was cleared in 2 weeks and hair regrown in the fullness of time. further enquiries showed that this "RESCUE" kennel in fact bought in dogs for re-sale, so more puppy/dog farmer than rescue kennel, its places like this that make you appreciate the real thing when you come across them.
Stan Berry