Does anybody please have the recipe and instructions on how to make "the carnation/egg yolk/glucose/hot water formula"

Or any good formula you may have used with success?

Mam gave birth to 13 healthy pups but over the next few days we lost six pups in spite of my and my vets efforts to save them (sad face)

On the advice of my vet  I had to remove the surviving pups from Mam, for five days while I treated pups and Mam with antibiotic to cure what the Vet suspected was "e coli - something" ? in the bitches milk.

The remaining seven surviving puppies are now back with their mother. but her milk has almost disappeared, since she's not been with her pups. they are nursing but to be on the safe side, I want to help by also bottle feeding them.

I don't want to use commercial product ie Welpi/Lactol if I can help it, I'm not happy with the way either of them mixed. I used a blender and still found lots of residue left at the bottom of the jug I used to mix it in (1 litre at a time) and also I am brave enough to say that in my area its expensive!! (I think its a supply and demand thing)

American Websites seem to love home made formula's, but some say add honey other warn not to? and then there is a "Corn Syrup" or sometimes "Corn Oil" ? ingredient that cannot it seems be bought in the UK? I'm never found it local to me anyhow, and nobody locally seems to have heard of it?
Oh by the way the puppies were born Sat. 13th March so that makes the survivors 10 days old today

Sorry I don't know the Recipe. Just wondering what you've been feeding them for the 5 Days that you have been 100% feeding them? If they are settled on anything I would be reluctant to change even if it doesn't seem ideal especially after a difficult start. I would worry that the new diet would upset them more.
Re price though, when I bred a litter a few years ago we bought a tub of just-in-case milk replacer. We bought a huge (10kg?) bucket of Skinners puppy milk replacer from our local farmers store because it was hardly anymore expensive than one of the tiny welpi pots the Vet's supply. I never had to use it so don't know how it is regarded as to quality but it might be worth looking into.
Good luck, keep them with her and hopefully her milk will come back in with the encouragment of the pups. How is the bitch now?

I use skinner's puppy milk for mine, but just to lap up. My female gets it too. But it still mixes like lactol/welpi, so that wouldn't get round that problem. I know there are lots of recipes out there, but never having used one I wouldn't dare recommend one.

What about goats milk?

Hi I have just used the huge Skinners bucket, 10 puppies so now on my 2nd bucket and think it tremendous value and that it mixes really well compared to  Lactol. Never use d Welpi myself. Before I bought I rang manufacturers for advice and was left feeling content that this would as best as poss replace Mum's milk.
Mine are now 5 weeks old so on solids but still have this as well as the solid food and Mum feeds them occassionally.
Good Luck

Diane

Just looked this up for you in an old book, [Hillary Harmar - Dogs and How to Breed Them 1968]condensed milk is excellent for the first few days 3 teaspoons boiled water to 4 teaspoons of milk ,Goats milk is also excellent it is richer than cows milk but has less fat and protein than bitches milk,so add a beaten egg yoke to one pint of milk.No mention of glucose.I use diluted evaporated milk or goats milk for weaning,as I find the commercial milk powders often cause looseness,I keep glucose in the cupboard  as a quick energy fix for weaklings,but do not use it all the time.Hope this helps

Diolch/Thanks,

To answer your question, I have been feeding them with Welpi & Lactol. I was told that Welpi was the best, but expensive approx £7.00 for 350g ran out after two days so I tried a local privately owned farmers/equine suppliers, who did not have a big enough Welpi tin, buying the small tins they had in stock were very expensive.  They told me that Sherley's Lactol outsold Welpi, and was cheaper and that  they had 500g tins in stock. (this is a big tin, but when opened is only 3/4 full. another British rip off?) anyhow that cost £7.99 and three days later I was scraping the bottom? so again I did not find this very cost effective.
Breeding my breed is all about preserving and saving a rare and ancient herding breed, and not about making money, so cost of everything related to them is always an issue! to save this breed one has to budget very carefully without compromising on the welfare & care of the dogs.

I have always used the 50/50 evaporated milk/water mixture to wean my puppies with fabulous results, great big healthy pups!! a trick I learned from the farmers in Norway & the Pyrenees in France where I lived for almost 25 years in total. both of these countries still work their dogs as "Stock Guards"  and MOST of their dogs are very hardy and from generations of working dogs as opposed to show dogs. I find that normally these working lines do not suffer so easily from upset stomachs etc by a slight change of diet, unlike many show lines.   However I have never tried to bottle feed newborns with it.
There is an old closed post on "Champdogs" where it is mentioned, but not in detail, and the mixture mentioned is given lots of positive support from contributors to that post!
As for the Quote: " huge (10kg?) bucket of Skinners puppy milk replacer from our local farmers store because it was hardly anymore expensive than one of the tiny Welpi pots the Vet's supply" end Quote.
I am surprised that you say that, because on line its seems to be, gram for gram, more expensive than Welpi & Lactol ? I would appreciate it, if you could prove me wrong on this! and point me in the right direction to buy a 10K bucket of Skinners for, "slightly more expensive than.... what I presume you mean a small 350 gram tin of Welpi?
But the main issue is the mixing and the residue left by these commercial milk replacer, lots of long standing good breeders are convinced that this residue remains in the pups stomach. and I know of one dead puppy who on post-mortem, was found to have this powder residue in its lungs? this problem with residue, regardless of how well its mixed, is an acknowledged problem and is often mentioned on global on-line websites/forums etc. the recomended solution to this, it seems is always a home made milk replacement formula. but back to my original question, "some of the ingredient are not available in the UK" ?
However, somebody in Britain, surely, must have over the years, worked out a formula based on ingredients easily available here?
On a positive note! The Bitch is fine now!

Hi Diane,

Diolch yn Fawr/Thank you very much,  for your reply.

As it seems, you have also bought and used  "the infamous" huge Skinners bucket and very recently, What is the current cost of the bucket?

Well done with your pups!! And yes I will also be sharing the feeding with "Brith" the pups Mam!

Pedr

Diolch/Thanks Rhona,

Yes me 2 for weaning, (see my follow up/answer posting) and I add 2 egg yokes per large Evaporated milk can, (one part milk to one part boiled water then cooled to body temperature) . . And yes, apparently if you use goats milk rather than condensed milk you do not need the water? condensed milk is cheap as chips at Aldi,  having your own milking goat in the garden is cheaper than the Coop! lol

As I have been living in France & Norway for so many years, some things I grew up with in Wales I have forgotten, and sometimes seem foreign to me? its a strange feeling lol! So to help me understand, can you please  confirm for me, that when you talk about "Glucose" this is what I buy in my local Chemists? that they call "Glucose Powder? In Scandinavia we had something similar called "Glucose Sugar" which I presume is the same stuff. I also presume that this is what you mean by your Glucose for weaklings in your cupboard, that you have happily not needed to date!
Talking about energy boost for weaklings, this is something else that REALLY WORKS!

Go to your local butcher, and buy a big piece of OX LIVER! NOT sheep or pig!
Place the Large liver in a saucepan with a LITTLE water and slowly boil on the hob, until the blood starts to emerge from the meat.
Run the liquid through a sieve an leave to cool. keep in the fridge.
To promote sucking when you bottle feed a weakling, give FOUR drops using a dropper on to the puppies tung just prior to commencing  bottle feeding.

Its also a good reviver. I know people who swear that its bought back puppies from the dead? or at least pups with their paw on the handle of deaths door!

I've also got both, Hilary Harmar's books, The "How to Groom" and The "How to Breed" mine is a 1985 reprint.  I've never noticed any reference to a formula? Therefore , I'll be liberating it from the cobwebs later, and having a browse through!

Rhona, diolch! for going the extra mile and looking it up! Its very much apreciated!

Pedr

In the Complete Herbal book for the dog by Juliette de Bairacli Levy

For hand rearing pups
She advocates raw cow or goats milk fortified with pure honey (1/4 teaspoon per every cup of milk)
The milk should be a tepid temperature.

She then advises in week 2 to add tree barks flour to increase the vitamins and minerals.
Plus to feed barley water

For weaning
When pups are 3 or 4 weeks old
Raw cow or goats milk, thickened with honey and pure unrefined slippery elm.

As the pups approach 5th week the milk should be thickened with whole-grain flaked cereals.
Starting with flaked barley first.
Also at this time raw meat should start to be introduced.

Hi  I have used the Carnation formula for years, with great success.  Recipe is:  1 Small can of Carnation Milk (Evaoporated NOT Condensed), equal quantity of boiled, cooled water, 1 egg yolk (no white at all).  You can add a pinch of glucose powder if you like, or a couple of Abidec drops, but I just go with the basic formula. Mix it thoroughly, store in fridge, and heat to blood temp. in bottle for feeding.  Mix a new batch every day.
From previous threads we have had on this subject make sure you buy carnation EVAPORATED Milk.  It was not till a few posters raised the issue of  high sugar level that I realised Carnation now do Condensed milk too (always used to be Netles Condensed).  This is thick, sweet and gloopy, not at all suitable for puppy milk (great for Banoffee pie :) ).  The corn starch listed in the american recipes is a thin syrup like substance and is similar to the glucose in hte above recipe for content.  Good luck with the pups.

Hi Gwen,

At last someone who knows!!!

I presume that it can be any, if not most, EVAPORATED Milk brands. and does not have to be THE CARNATION BRAND?

Diolch yn Fawr Gwen, I'll be using this formula from today!

Pedr

Hei there Boxacrazy, 

WOW, unrefined slippery elm ? sounds like it should also contain cobwebs and bats wings lol

Great recipe, not so sure I'm brave enough to make this? They burn Witches, Don't they? lol

Diolch yn Fawr/Thanks very much for your help and contribution.

Pedr

would these be the same old books that advocate rearing pups on weetabix???!!!
personally if I have to use supplementary milk, after many years of trying different, I now only use Royal Canins.

I think I would definitely give the old recipe from the book an A+ for being interesting history, but not fit for purpose now!  I have always used the brand Carnation, and stick with it rigidly as the proportions in the recipe work out wiht the small can, and not sure if other brands come in the same size can, even if the milk is the same.

The old book definitely says condensed not evaporated,I was surprised because,it is so sweet and sticky.I guess that it has the same effect as adding  glucose.I used to add glucose to the 50/50 evaporated milk water mix when weaning,but the pups seem to do just as well without the extra energy boost.I have heard of the ox liver nutrient,it would be a lot cheaper than Nutri- Drops,which comes in very small dropper bottles and smells like marmite,but claims to work magic on fading pup.,Fortunately I have not had occasion to test it yet.I wonder why the old recipes are deemed no longer fit for purpose,I am not aware that digestive systems have changed over the years,so many of grannies old ideas have come back into fashion and stood the test of time.Personally I never used weetabix but baby cereal is good,and I know people who do use weetabix,it is a wholesome product so why not? after all it is only during weaning,they are not on it for long.The big difference from years ago,is how early we can worm now,it is such an advantage not having to wait for six weeks,the poor little things had pot bellies and no flesh on their ribs until they could be wormed,no matter how well we wormed the dam the pups were always infected.I look at my two. week olds thriving and growing so strong they are a joy to watch.

I admit I have a pet shop so buy at trade prices but still found Skinners the cheapest. I did phone them first for reassurance before using. Have found it interesting re the undigested comment because I habe had this problem this time and not had it before. Also re loose motions as have had these also.
They vary from good to soft now. Will soon take them off milk but will take what has been said here on board for future litters.
Diane

> .I wonder why the old recipes are deemed no longer fit for purpose,I am not aware that digestive systems have changed over the years,

But perhaps our knowledge of the digestive system of pups has?  Suggesting feeding cows milk to tiny pups (or indeed any pups) is not a good idea, and I recenlty read that honey can also have an adverse effect on pups, and should not be fed to pregnant or nursing bitches either.  The reference to raw milk - woudl anyone have access to this unless they had thier own dairy cattle or goats?

I have used evaporated milk in the past watered down to required quantity and I admit I have never had this problem of undigested milk before. Always had good strong puppies. Have also used goats milk but nowadays this seems quite an expensive option if you have a large litter.
I did not use Carnation but the Supermarket's do a version and I go in and buy all their stocks and it has done me really well in the past. Because I could buy the Skinner's bucket I used that for my large litter that needed supplementing but another time I think I would go down the Evaporated milk option again.
Diane

Also I read that about honey too and had a weaker puppy who is now fine but smaller than the others. Thought about Honey but what I read worried me so I used Nutri drops.
Diane

Rhona,

I'm glad you made the Weetabix comment, When I first started to raise pups,  I used "Baby Rusks", but soon graduated to "Weetabix"  and not necessarily the branded version. Tesco's & Aldi now both do their own version, I think Weetabix and its clones work great!

When I take my litters in for a visit & check up,  My Vet always gives them the red carpet treatment,  going round everybody in the practise who will listen, and saying, "Look at these pups aren't they fantastic, isn't it wonderful what a little  Weetabix & Evap. will do!!
And that's good enough for me!  I must admit though, I've not seen  "Condensed Milk", mentioned in any of my old dog books, I must do some research on that!

I confess however,  that when I was a teenager in the 60's, If I got hold of a can of Condensed milk, a  tin opener and a spoon,   I could not stop eating the stuff until the can was empty! lol.
Interestingly, during my life so far, I have always been grateful for the fact that it takes a lot to convince people of my real age, comments are usually that I look at least ten years younger! So maybe there is something in this condensed milk, theory lol !

Pedr

Gwen,

I would not give Cows milk to my pups today, because of all the "WARNINGS" one reads  about using it!

I must however, admit to being a bit bemused and confused about the so called dangers of using Cows milk.

When I was a young man in the   50's & 60's, although my farther was the local village policeman. I would spend all my time hanging around the local farms, most of which were dairy farms in those days.
I remember just like it was yesterday all our native Welsh Sheepdog breeds on these farms drinking buckets full of cows milk, so fresh that it was still warm from the cow. 
Personally I can also attest to how nice it was, straight from the cow!

Pedr

> American Websites seem to love home made formula's, but some say add honey other warn not to? and then there is a "Corn Syrup" or sometimes "Corn Oil" ? ingredient that cannot it seems be bought in the UK? I'm never found it local to me anyhow, and nobody locally seems to have heard of it?

Just for future reference, Corn Oil is oil from Maize - we can get that here as Mazola cooking oil.
Corn Syrup is rather different though - it's sold in the USA as Karo syrup, again made from maize. The nearest equivalent we have is Golden Syrup though that is made from cane sugar. I would guess honey would do just as well - if not better.

Ms Temeraire (love it!)

SPOOKY!!!

Your quite right, I went into a local supermarket today  " Tess's Co."  and there it was "Corn Oil" as far as the eye could see!!! a bit like trying to choose which toothpaste! lol

Don't use Honey? is the popular belief?

Also many have been down the "Golden Syrup" route as a subsidy for  Corn Syrup/Karo Syrup, with apparently not very good results as it far more removed from Corn Syrup/Karo Syrup that first meets the eye?

Pedr

> Your quite right, I went into a local supermarket today  " Tess's Co."  and there it was "Corn Oil" as far as the eye could see!!! a bit like trying to choose which toothpaste! lol Don't use Honey? is the popular belief? Also many have been down the "Golden Syrup" rout as a subsidy for  Corn Syrup/Karo Syrup, with apparently not very good results as it far more removed from Corn Syrup/Karo Syrup that first meets the eye?

Honey - honey, I have no idea :) But I've always used it for my cats and other animals as a natural sugar boost. I know it's not advised for human babies, but animals, well... Beyond my level of knowledge, although as said I have used it for mine including as an ingredient for a substitute kitten milk.

Only other thing I can think of would be to use Glycerine which is a glucose/fructose syrup, but then we're getting more into processed things again. If honey works and really is OK for animals, then I'd go with honey - or powdered Glucose from the chemists.
What makes this Karo syrup so magically better anyhow? How would Maize be a more suitable basis for a sugar than Cane? Or Fructose, fruit sugar, which can also be bought at a pharmacy? Or Glucose, which is wheat-based sugar?

I'm interested now! :)

You can get glucose syrup from the chemists too, which may be closer to the American Corn syrup.  However I have been using the carnation formula for years now without the addition of glucose/syrup without a problem, so I woudl not stress too much about it.  Until recently I had never considered honey to be anything but a sweetner and apparently naturally soothing and even a bit antiseptic - years ago was advise by a vet to use it on a Stallion who had been kicked where it hurt by a mare during covering - had to smear his very sort "dangly bits" with honey several times a day, and it worked wonders.  However some online research has led to reading that quite a few breeders/vets who believe it to be unsuitable for pregnant, nursing bitches or for new born pups.

I remember milk fresh for the cow too, and the farm dogs diving around trying to get a drink from buckets.  However from personal experience I know that it can lead to colitis in many dogs (American cockers and Cavaliers seem very sensitive to it) so woudl never give it to supplement pups.

So am I? Is there a "Myrddin (Merlin) " in the house?

What did we do before commercialisation? when we picked herbs from the wild as a solution!

We seem to have lost these skills! but incredibly, it was only yesterday!

My Grandmother made lemonade from scratch, and  I do remember a wonderful "Dandelion & Burdock" which she used make from the ingredients she  collected  from the hedgerows!!

I am sure that we forget these old "mixes/recipe's"  at our peril!

Pedr

> However some online research has led to reading that quite a few breeders/vets who believe it to be unsuitable for pregnant, nursing bitches or for new born pups.

And yet, Manuka honey is being claimed as a totally natural antibiotic and anti-viral wonder-stuff (with prices to match!).

> My Grandmother made lemonade from scratch,

So did my mum, and I may be able to find a recipe for you, if you wish :)
I think there's a Merlin around here somewhere, just let me find him....

pedr your preaching to the converted here....as ssomeone who makes everything from scratch......and shoots prepares or rears all our meat....no supermarkets here....but when it comes to my puppies i want to know that they are getting the best and safest milk substitute, one that formulated by experts. Im not sure I can understand peoples wanting the "cheapest milk substitute" either....what a strange attitude :(

> Im not sure I can understand peoples wanting the "cheapest milk substitute" either....what a strange attitude

I don't use it becasue it is cheap - in fact I haven't got a clue how it works out pricewise compared with prepared formulas.  However, as previously posted several times so won't go into it all again, many years back a vet convinced me that puppy formulas you have to reconstitute was not the way to go when feeding neo-nates, especially those who are not doing well anyway.  Since then I have used this formulas with great success every time I have had to supplement or hand rear pups.  They thrive on it.  So I am firmly in the camp "if it aint broke don't fix it" and would not consider changing to a branded formula unless someone could show me very good reasoning why it was better for the pups, and the original problem of the difficulty in getting the powder completely dissolved is 100% proved to not exist any more.

I tend to believe animal food company claims with a pinch of salt - after all they are purely in it for profit, so I am happy to be led by my own experience.  As a matter of interest I will work out the average cost of my formula, if someone wants to post prices for the branded ones, so we can do a price comparison?

I AGREE!!! Gwen.

This has been a very informative post. I have enjoyed learning and contributing from each others experiences.

It felt really comforting having the forum support available during the initial dark days of fading pups!

Diolch yn Fawr/Thank you very much to those of  you who remained positive and open minded through out

Pups update: doing brilliantly, Mam's milk has now returned. I'm helping her out just in the morning and evening, "Brith" does the rest on her own,  The pups now feel round, heavy, solid and wriggle with determination no longer  boney and limp to the touch! 

I reckon "Evap" must be a puppy super-food!! lol - Don't tell the experts otherwise they will put it in a pretty package and treble the price!

Lets celebrate with a with some home made lemonade! did you say you had a recipe you could publish here ?

Pedr