Also, believe or not, spaying and neutering of dogs is not very common in Nordic countries either.
Most dogs are entire through their whole lifes but live perfectly happy life as a pet with no accidental offspring...
(Snip)
I had dogs for years while I lived in Finland and I do not think it was once suggested by a passer by that I should be breeding from my dogs! Education again... There is very little market to "pet bred puppies", e.g. unregistered puppy from non health tested parents, people know to demand papers and health tests.

Exactly, same with Sweden. During all the time I lived there (from birth until I was 22) it was ILLEGAL to neuter dogs and spay bitches. But there was NO sch thing as strays, I never heard of accidental litters (and I worked both as a vet nurse and dog groomer), there was only one dogs home in all of Stockholm and there was a waiting list for a dog from there. People weren't even allowed in to view the dogs in case they picked one on looks alone, you had to fill in a form with your requirements (size, coat, sex, age, temperament) and circumstances and then they would match a dog to you.

These days there are more rescues. Why? Because it became fashionable to have crossbreeds! Neutering is now legal but many vets still don't recommend it. It's not seen as responsible. A LOT of normal pet dog owners are kennel club members, the majority of dogs are insured etc. I got a complete culture shock when I moved to England!

BTW; according to the Swedish KC, PDE did not have much of an impact in Sweden at all -probably because Swedes can't imagine dog breeders there being irresponsible, and yes everyone knows to only buy KC registered dogs and of course you can only register pups if both parents have the relevant health tests WITH good enough results, AND for some breeds temperament testing as well. It will also cost a lot more to register puppies from parents without good show or working results.

Nopound, I admire in some way what you're trying to do, but believe you are going the wrong way about it and that you also have quite a one sided view on things. I'm pleased however to see you answering all the questions and in quite a polite manor.

But, why are you ruining events and targeting people who spend a hell of a lot of money on producing health teasted, well bred, well raised puppies? Why don't you spend your time more constructively and try to put an end to puppy farms by targeting them instead? THESE are the people that are contributing to the rescue problem. There is a good reason why the majority of dogs in rescue are cross breeds, this is because they come mostly from puppy farms, unscrupulous breeders, accidental mating etc... they do not come from the background that most pure bred show dogs do. Most aren't raised in a loving, caring environment from a mating that has been planned for a long time. They don't then go onto homes where the new owners have been waiting a long time for that particular dog and have been fully checked out by the breeder. No, most cross breeds come from places like the newspaper adds, the internet puppy sites, pet shops. People buy puppies in the spur of the moment, end up with a puppy that's not suitable, that hasn't had the socialisation every puppy requires to become a well balanced dog. THIS is why the pounds are full of cross breeds. It has nothing to do with pedigree dog breeders creating a demand for pure bred dogs, it has EVERYTHING to do with people who do not care about the way they breed and only want to make money.

Your protest a Crufts could actually do more harm than good. You are trying to show that you think pedigree breeding is wrong when so many cross breeds are in rescue. What kind of message does that give out to the public in the short amount of time you had shouting in the big ring, along with the pedigree dogs exposed program? It doesn't convince people to rescue, it convinces them that pedigree dogs are wrong and to go and buy a cross breed off a puppy farmer!

I'm sure that a lot of people who are anti pure bred dogs, have this idea that all the people who show and don't own cross breeds, do it because they hate anything that doesn't come with a full pedigree and lots of champions behind it. This is so untrue! The reason why a lot of show people are anti cross breed, is actually for the benefit of the dog. Breeding a cross breed is like throwing dice up in the air, you don't know what you're going to get. At least with pedigree dogs, you have some form of control over limiting or eradicating health problems for the benefit of the dog.

So what would happen to the rescue centres if you stopped charging for puppies? Nothing. So and so's dog from next door with still mate with Joe Blogg's dog down the road and produce cross bred (or even pure bred) puppies, they would still not be well bought up, well socialised, they would still go to a home that is not suitable and end up in rescue.
What would happen to pure bred show dogs if you stopped charging for puppies? A hell of a lot! With the last litter that we bred, we spend as much money as was necessary to cover cost for things such as health checks for the mother and puppies, quality food, puppy packs, toys for the pups to take to their new homes etc etc... This litter has cost us in excess of £2000. We don't breed dogs to make money, but come on, you have to be realistic. How many breeders would be able to afford to spend this amount of money to produce good quality puppies? Not an awful lot! And what would happen? Dogs would still be bred, people just wouldn't spend that amount of money to raise them in the correct way.

Most show dogs are the lucky ones. They come from people who have bred for temperament, health, correct healthy conformation who fit the breed standard as closely as possible. After all, breed standards were developed as a guideline to what the best, healthy, quality working dogs should be like. It is not a list of the things most desirable in the show ring, it's is a list of what would make the best dog with the least amount of physical problems, who are able to do the job they were bred for without it being detrimental to their health. Most show dogs are well looked after, well fed and groomed, they receive a lot of mental stimulation from going to shows and believe it or not, actually enjoy going!

So why are you targeting the people who are trying to do the best for dogs? Do something useful and stop puppy farms and 'backyard breeders' who quite honestly dog give a sh** about dogs! Don't punish the good breeders for the work of others!

Very well said NDQ!
Also, fascinating info from those who have resided in Scandinavia.  It's the ideal we should strive to reach.

> There have been many posts on Champdogs where people have been urged to 'think again' about getting a dog or puppy. 

True statement.  I have talked someone out of a puppy.  If I didn't care, I wouldn't have strangers in my house for 3 hours while I went through all the drawbacks.  In this case, they went home, talked things through, and got back to me asking if they could be considered for a pup once their kids were older.  I felt that a mum with a hyper 3 year old, and an 8 month old baby had quite a lot of work on her hands already.

Yes, they could have gone to a puppy farmer after leaving me - and it's why I pointed out all the reasons not to have one, and not just say no, and on your way.  And I love mongrels as well as pure bred dogs.

Why penalise good breeders ?
- I don't think I'm making myself very clear, and I understand that is partly because of the fact that we chose to protest Crufts. By talking about breeders not being able to make money out of selling puppies, it's not to punish good breeders but to remove the incentive of breeding from puppy farmers. I think if a law was introduced regarding dog breeding more than likely it would apply to all breeders, so I'm trying to think of something that would, when applied to PF, BYB and good breeders, would have the right impact - and since good breeders don't profit anyway, I didn't think this would have a bad affect on them. It's just an idea I wanted to air with you.

to oust out puppy farmers would it not be an idea as well as education but to bring the cost of buying a pup from a good reputable breeder down so that the difference between a puppy farm pup and a well bred pup is not that great causing the purchaser to go for the well bred pup with all the necessary health tests and constant breeder support? the same could apply to the rescue centres that the donation asked for is a ture donation not a 'minimum' amount and that critria is not rigid but adjusted slightly to each dogs needs and to what a person can offer?
- Yes, perhaps. Do you mean like a government subsidy or do you have other ideas about where the funds would come from?

So should good breeders who vet homes well and take lifelong responsibility for the puppies/dogs they produce stop breeding and then only the Back Yard breeders, Puppy Farmers and commercially motivated would reed even more.
- No, I didn't say that. But what I do think would be really beneficial is if everyone - BYB, PF and even good breeders - stopped breeding completely for a few years; clear out all the animal shelters and then start from scratch!

The protesters would be far better protecting at their Local Authority offices who issue breeding Licences to commercial Kennels who have not the staff or facilities to even provide basic care and who do not enforce the breeding and sale of dogs welfare Act, which requires puppies to be identifiable to their breeder etc.
- Ok, sounds like a good idea! Do you know if the if records on licenced breeders are public information?

Another big reason for not having rescue issues is also laws against commercial selling of puppies. I'm nearly 30 years old and I have never seen a puppy sold in a shop in Finland(I'm Finnish) so the laws have been there for +20 years, UK is VERY behind on this welfare issue!!
- Fantastic, sounds like it's well worth looking at Finnish, and Swedish laws more carefully to see how they've managed to get where they are.

Why don't you spend your time more constructively and try to put an end to puppy farms by targeting them instead?
- At the moment I am just trying to understand what is going on, so that I can target the route of the problem. Does anyone have any figures on puppy farms and the percentage of puppies sold in the UK that come from them? According to PFMA, in 2009 dogs came from: Rescue Centre: 32%, Friend/acquiantance: 25%, Recommended Breeder: 16%, Private Ad: 16%, Internet: 8%, Pet Shop: 7%. Of these, which would be puppy farms do you think? I would imagine most likely just the three, which would suggest the problem is not just puppy farms. Thoughts?

So why are you targeting the people who are trying to do the best for dogs? Do something useful and stop puppy farms and 'backyard breeders' who quite honestly dog give a sh** about dogs! Don't punish the good breeders for the work of others!
- Again, I'm not. But I do believe that the priority at the moment is to get dogs out of death row situations in council pounds and shelters. So if anyone asks me about where they should get a dog from I will not hestitate to tell them to go save a life and adopt a dog from a shelter, rather than buy a puppy from a breeder, no matter how good the breeder is.

>what I do think would be really beneficial is if everyone - BYB, PF and even good breeders - stopped breeding completely for a few years;

But then all the bitches would be too old to breed from safely. Domestic dogs extinct within a single generation.

>sounds like it's well worth looking at Finnish, and Swedish laws more carefully to see how they've managed to get where they are.

Education.

>I don't think I'm making myself very clear, and I understand that is partly because of the fact that we chose to protest Crufts.

By targeting Crufts you put across the message that the Kennel Club, pedigree dogs and their breeders are bad, cruel and irresponsible. When you look at the dogs in rescue shelters it's immediately evident that they have zero connection to the Kennel Club - so why link the two in the minds of the public?

>>So why are you targeting the people who are trying to do the best for dogs? 
>Again, I'm not.

That's exactly what you are doing, I'm afraid, because nobody's thought it through rationally.

Nopounds, I and everyone else who loves dogs applaud your motivations, but your really have to accept that you absolutely targeted the wrong people at Crufts. By pigeon-holing good decent breeders with bybs and pupppys farms, as has been said by JG, you could've linked them together in the mind of the public which is (as proved recently) disastrous to the rescue situation but fantastic for the puppy farmers (which don't KC reg pups so therefore must be healthier - not. :( )

When I bought my last pup I had to spend 3 months convincing the breeder I was a good sound home for one of her pups, before the litter was even conceived, and then a signed contract that if I was unable to keep the pup it would be returned to her - I think this is the norm for any good breeder.

People start out showing their dogs because they love their dogs, so you can understand how we feel somewhat insulted that we are contributing to a terrible thing while the real culprits sit back, laughing and sell another litter.

> At the moment I am just trying to understand what is going on, so that I can target the route of the problem

With all due respect, perhaps you should have carried out this research before doing what you did.

Nopounds, I suggest you read this thread and see where, apart from the despicable commercial puppy farmers and their pet shop outlets, the real problem of surplus puppy production lies.

nopounds. Do you know the difference between inbreeding and line breding?

Most puppy farmers crate their dogs in small, dank and horrible conditions and most likely inbreed their dogs (Mother, son, etc). A reliable, caring dog breeder (Like the ones you will find on here) line breed their dogs and will not mate dogs and bitches that are so closely related. They will also give as much after sell care to their puppy buyers as possible. Always asking how they are getting on with the dog, if there is any problems and will always tell the buyers that if them and their new puppy don't get along then they will happily take the puppy back.

A lot of breeders in my breed that have kennels will happily accomodate a rescue dog of our breed. Evaloate it and if it is not suitable for rehoming they won't put that dog down but instead it will become part of the family at the kennel and be housed there for the rest of it's life.

What about the so called animal research centres that test on animals? Centres that breed dogs in cages so that they can 'test' on them? What do you think happens to them when the centres are done with them? Shouldn't something should be done to stop this rather then come to Crufts and protest about responisble dog breeders who do care about their dogs? I bet any long standing breeder on here could tell you the name and temprement of every one of the dogs that they have bred, who they went to, what happened to it, how old it lived for, etc.

Did you see the newspaper report on the RSPCA a few months ago who went to a mans home who had sadly passed away and killed all of his GSD's with a bolt gun? (That's the type of gun that a vet uses to put a horse to sleep). Those GSD's were not sent to the nearest shelter for evaloation, nor did the RSPCA seek help and advise from the GSD breed rescue who I'm sure would have taken them on without a problem. They were killed and in the most upsetting and inhumane way possible. How can you sit there and write that you support an organisation that does this type of thing?

> By talking about breeders not being able to make money out of selling puppies, it's not to punish good breeders but to remove the incentive of breeding from puppy farmers. I think if a law was introduced regarding dog breeding more than likely it would apply to all breeders, so I'm trying to think of something that would, when applied to PF, BYB and good breeders, would have the right impact - and since good breeders don't profit anyway, I didn't think this would have a bad affect on them. It's just an idea I wanted to air with you.
>

As I pointed out before a good breeders litter will cost the good breeder (in my case around £1800 a litter without factoring my time and extra fuel costs wear and tear, keeping the other dogs for life, proving them in the showring/working them etc).

A puppy farmer doing the bare minimum to keep the mother and litter alive (getting rid of dogs into rescue or other means  as soon as they are unprofitable to keep)can make a profit if they sell puppies at this price (say £300 per puppy).  In reality they make a mint as they charge the same as good breeders or just a £100 less. A breeder charging £500-£700, will not be making money as if they are lucky some of that will help keep their dogs, pay the odd show entry.

I am in a numerically small breed.  We get people into the breed who start to show with nice stock, but few of them go on to become breeders as with the mentoring they receive and the expectations of their responsibilities they quickly realise they cannot make the commitment breeding properly entails.  they can't afford the money, or the time (years).

I helped a friend with her first litter after owning five generations of the breed and rescue crossbreeds.  She is self employed, doing work that is season and weather dependent.  Her litter was born in march and pups obviously homed between June and July.  During this time she could not work(peak time to earn her annual income),a nd had the costs of a litter to rear.  The few hundred pounds perceived profit certainly didn't cover 3 months of attention to bitch and pups.

Oh and as for Pedigree breeders not caring about health.

Those who live with and keep their dogs for life (to keep a line going I find  need to keep a minimum of five dogs from birth to death, with 2 1/2 to 3 years between each).  In September 3 out of five of mien will be Veterans, and I quite selfishly want to have healthy companions that enjoy good health and do not cost me a fortune in Vet bills.

I will hopefully be having a puppy in the Spring, which if all goes well will have cost a lot of money travelling abroad (to widen our gene pool) to mate the bitch.  If it doesn't come off I will have lost in the region of £2000, and have to try again.

> Nopounds, I suggest you read this thread and see where, apart from the despicable commercial puppy farmers and their pet shop outlets, the real problem of surplus puppy production lies.

Yes, even the study on where people got their dogs quoted was not very useful, but showed only 16% came from recommended breeder, recommended by who?  Some of these one hopes were good breeders, but I know many people who have recommended the BYB they got Flossie from.

Then you have internet advert (both good and bad breeders).  Pet shops, well no good breeder would allow their pups to be sold this way.

I can't see why things would be any different in UK than in Canada and USA regarding peoples buying patterns.

This link http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm and related is pretty good at spelling out the situation there.

"The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating.



The majority of homeless or abandoned dogs come from this category in many popular breeds and mixes, they are often destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight.



Many back yard breeders do not have the knowledge to properly raise a healthy, socialized litter, or to help the new owner with any problems that might arise................................"

No, I didn't say that. But what I do think would be really beneficial is if everyone - BYB, PF and even good breeders - stopped breeding completely for a few years; clear out all the animal shelters and then start from scratch!

Apart from the comments other posters have made about this particular sentence I would like to add that not everyone is suited to owning a rescue dog. A lot of them come with problems and training out a problem is far harder than not letting it occur in the first place. I have always had rescue dog and currently have two. One of those is a purebred puppy who came to us at around 9 weeks old and the other is a crossbreed terrier. The latter dog has been the hardest dog to own that I have ever had. I am not vastly experienced in dog ownership but neither am I complete beginner. Despite having had our small dog for nearly 3 years now he still has issues that other people may have returned him to rescue for. We have learnt to manage his behaviour but life is not so easy as it was before he came to live with us.

How many of those dogs in rescue would be suited to go to homes where owners have little or no knowledge of dog ownership and are first time dog owners? There are a huge amount of dogs on any of the rescue websites that state particular dogs have behavioural problems of one sort or another - who is going to take these dogs on, the first time owner, those with very little experience of dogs, those who have other dogs at home and would then have to totally alter their way of life to accomodate those rescue dogs with behaviour problems? Not everyone is suited to taking on a dog with problems and with no other choice other than to get a dog from a rescue these dogs could spend their lives being adopted and returned time after time.

I have decided that our terrier will be my very last rescue dog. My next dog will be from a reputable breeder who breeds for health and temperament and just as importantly is looking for a prospective owner who is able to live up to the expectations they have for their puppy. I want to know the breeding behind my next dog, any health issues in the breed, the temperament that I can expect to have in my new pup and I also want to have the back up of that breeder's knowledge and interest for the rest of my pup's life.

I feel I have done my bit for taking on someone else's mistakes and I would now like to make an educated choice for my next dog. I will probably be shot down in flames now but I honestly believe that some dogs in rescue are not suitable to be rehomed to anyone at all and it would be far kinder for those dogs to be given the greatest kindness of all and release them from a life of yo-yo rehoming to unsuitable situations and their inevitable return to rescue.

I agree that the line has to be drawn somewhere but that line is not with the respectable, reputable breeders but with the BYBs and the puppy farmers. Only by educating the public as to what they should be looking for when choosing a puppy and just as importantly what they should be avoiding will things ever change. It is not the responsible breeders who are the cause of the rehoming centre's problems but those who see a dog as a commodity to exploit or just don't have a clue.

A very interesting thread and I would just like to add that Harley has made a very valid point re rescue dogs. There are many, many fabulous dogs in rescue but not all are suitable for rehoming despite the best efforts of all concerned.  I was attacked by my first rescue dog (from the RSPCA) and there is not a day that goes by where I am thankful he attacked me ( as I managed to subdue him) not my girlfriend or a child. I still have the physical scars 20 years on, caution and common sense are always paramount.
Jeff.

Excellent post Harley, and I would not shoot you down, as I do feel there are worse things than death, one of which is a dog which is miserable because of it's fears or temperament issues.

I am one of those people who like specific traits, and dislike (would not live with others) the choice of 20 breeds with predictable traits allows me and others to choose a breed to suit my requirements.

Also I had my first dog when my oldest child was just a year old, and many rescue dogs would be too big a risk with unknown history to be suitable for a first time owner with  young child.

Nopounds, you have asked for suggestions on how to stop the problem of dogs ending up in rescue. So I shall make a few suggestions which I hope you will consider.

First and most important is to stop puppy farming, which means you need to target the government and DeFRA with your protests.

Second, Campaign for the authorities police, local council officers and the (usually hopeless IMO) RSPCA to actually pull their collective finger out and pursue the back yard breeders and puppy farms. Get the vets who are supposed to inspect the puppy farms to refuse to agree to a licence being issued. Get the councils who licence these puppy farms to stop issuing the licences, get the RSPCA when they inspect these premises to stop saying "There is nothing we can do the dogs have water". I know of a case where the RSPCA sat in a layby while the local puppy farmer (banned by the way) shipped the dogs off his premises then they inspected it found no dogs and went away. Shortly after the man shipped the dogs back, I know one of the anti puppy farm campaigners who staked out this event, they were parked in the same layby behind the RSPCA man 100 yards from the puppy farm entrance.

Third Education! Education! Education! to borrow a political phrase....

We need to educate dog owners before they become dog owners. Children in schools, (although this will be difficult because due to dog attack reports and scares about dogs having worms most local authorities will not allow a dog on the premises, bizarre when you consider we have PAT dogs who are encouraged to visit hospitals), youngsters in colleges, because they are the next generation of dog owners.

Educate those who have a dog to get their dog trained and to care for it properly. So many are bought on a whim, a classic example is a lady who lives near me, she takes on foster children and when ever a new long term foster child comes to live there she buys them a puppy .... or two... or more... Last year she bought two black shepherd puppies one for a child of 4 years and one for the sister who is 6 years. Within a month both dogs were bigger than their young handlers can manage, these dogs are seen dragging the children around the local park, (no adult supervision) and even across roads!

Finally educate the irresponsible breeders who sell one or more pups to a family. When one puppy is sold to a family it will bond with the family and be easier to train. When two or more are sold to a family they learn to rely on each other and will not learn good manners from the people they are living with.

Good breeders need to sell puppies to fund the ever increasing health testing required for their dogs. They do not breed their dogs often enough make a profit. The breeders who make a profit are the back yard breeders and puppy farmers.

As you are interested in Pats protest, perhaps you might like to get involved with some of the anti puppy farming groups? Look up Waterside Action Group on the internet. They have campaigned to close down and get bans placed on a number of puppy farmers and dog dealers successfully.

If you really want to get broadcast and bring your protests to a wider audience perhaps you should tackle the puppy farmers at their premises or to protest outside the pet shops which sell puppies from puppy farms, dog dealers and back yard breeders? I know Pat has a long long list of such premises for you to take your pick from.

These are a few of my suggestions, but really unless you can get DeFRA and the Government to stop puppy farming and ban dog dealers you will never make any headway ever! Once that has been stopped it would be time to campaign to get rid of the back yard breeders, the irresponsible breeders who breed pedigree dogs and as another poster pointed out labrador poodles crossbreeds, the yobs who over breed from their staffordshire bull type terriers, (and often use them for fighting).

Oh if while doing all this you can also raise funds for health research the responsible breeders will thank you.

Nopounds...

Would you like to look at this thread?

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/122353.html#fp

I think it illustrates quite clearly where your rescue dogs can come from. It reminds me of a litter of labrador x rottweiler puppies brought into Stokenchurch once. I was there delivering a sack of puppy milk I had bought to help them out as I knew they had a lot of puppies in that year. A car pulled and the woman got out she put the puppies on the ground and said, "I don't want these now, I had the litter to show the children how babies were born". With that she got back in the car and drove off leaving myself and the rescue staff dumbfounded!

By targeting Crufts you put across the message that the Kennel Club, pedigree dogs and their breeders are bad, cruel and irresponsible.
- Like I say, it was more the opportunity that Crufts presented than Crufts itself, although I can see why it would be perceived otherwise. Although I have to say that I'll never be fan of the Kennel Club or Crufts simply because I do not believe in judging an animal by looks, gait etc, I can't stand seeing the dogs being poked about and treated like objects and I do believe that they are not doing nearly enough to stop inbreeding and genetic diseases (thanks for the clarification re inbreeding and line breeding by the way). I also feel very upset when talking to breeders who tell me about how they can't keep up with demand for their puppies and are selling them for £650 and wanting to breed more to keep the supply going. Some of them talk about dogs as if they were commodities rather than living beings. I don't like that whole mentality.

Nopounds, I suggest you read this thread and see where, apart from the despicable commercial puppy farmers and their pet shop outlets, the real problem of surplus puppy production lies.
- Thanks, so you think it's all about accidental litters and people just wanted to have a litter because it seems like a nice thing to do, without having the experience to do it? If so, what can we do about this? Mandatory neutering at 6 months or pay breeding licence, like they do in the US? As well as education of course.

What about the so called animal research centres that test on animals? Centres that breed dogs in cages so that they can 'test' on them? What do you think happens to them when the centres are done with them? Shouldn't something should be done to stop this rather then come to Crufts and protest about responisble dog breeders who do care about their dogs?
- Yep, done that too. In fact, previous Crufts protests have been about Iams for precisely that reason. They were targeted as a sponsor of Crufts due to their testing foods on dogs.

Did you see the newspaper report on the RSPCA a few months ago who went to a mans home who had sadly passed away and killed all of his GSD's with a bolt gun? How can you sit there and write that you support an organisation that does this type of thing?
- Never said I was a fan of the RSPCA

not everyone is suited to owning a rescue dog. A lot of them come with problems and training out a problem is far harder than not letting it occur in the first place.
- I do understand that, although I have two and have no problems with them and I don't know anyone else with a rescue who has had significant problems. But I appreciate that there are problem dogs that need special homes.

Anyway, clearly there are some issues we will never agree on. So, let's concentrate on what's needed. The government are currently reviewing those two reports that followed PDE and considering whether any new legislation is needed. I think it is needed. Education is not enough. But what laws can we introduce that will stop puppy farms and BYBs?

I was there delivering a sack of puppy milk I had bought to help them out as I knew they had a lot of puppies in that year. A car pulled and the woman got out she put the puppies on the ground and said, "I don't want these now, I had the litter to show the children how babies were born".
- That is so incredibly sad, Polly. Unbelievable. A friend of my sister's has just had a litter of 8 with her dog for the same reason. Don't know where they'll end up. I have another friend who swears that every animal should have just one litter so always breeds from pets. This thinking makes no sense to me, and he just won't listen when I try to explain that it's wrong.

have another friend who swears that every animal should have just one litter so always breeds from pets.

Says it all really :-(

Polly, somehow I missed your earlier post with your suggestions. Thank you for that, it all makes sense to me. You mention the Waterside group, do you know any other campaigning groups working on this issue? It just seems that RSPCA, Dogs Trust, PDSA etc aren't doing enough, and I'm sure between them they could make a huge impact. Part of the problem is that they are registered charities though, which limits the amount of campaigning they can do.

>Mandatory neutering at 6 months

Certainly not, because neutering before maturity (or while bitches are preparing for a season) can cause tremendous physical and behavioural problems. Responsible dog owners (as in Sweden where it used to be illegal to neuter, and yet there weren't hundreds of unwanted litters) can keep entire dogs and bitches safely and chaste.

>A friend of my sister's has just had a litter of 8 with her dog for the same reason. Don't know where they'll end up. I have another friend who swears that every animal should have just one litter so always breeds from pets.

These are the people causing the problems. These are the people you need to target and shame, not the responsible ones, which is what you did when you disrupted Crufts.

But how do we stop these problem people? What about mandatory neutering at 1 year?

>I also feel very upset when talking to breeders who tell me about how they can't keep up with demand for their puppies and are selling them for £650 and wanting to breed more to keep the supply going. Some of them talk about dogs as if they were commodities rather than living beings. I don't like that whole mentality.

I have never met a good breeder that breeds to keep up with demand for puppies. Ever.

Good breeders will breed when they'd like a pup for themselves and to better the breed, not because they have a demand. (This one of the many differences between good breeder and the 'others')

> I do not believe in judging an animal by looks, gait etc, I can't stand seeing the dogs being poked about and treated like objects

This does not make sense, a dog that is physically well made will have a good gait.. whats bad about being well made?? My dogs have never been 'poked about' at dog shows, do you really think I'd allow one of my beloved pets to be 'poked about' or treated like an object?? They have had a judges hands on them, so he/she can feel how well made they are and they love being at shows - they day they don't enjoy it is the last day they are shown.

>how do we stop these problem people? What about mandatory neutering at 1 year?

I think 1 year is a bit early to be neutering the problem people. Best to wait until they're more mature ... ;-)

Nopounds, responsible people will do whatever's necessary to prevent their dogs producing unwanted puppies. Education, not legislation, is what's needed. Did you hear the people on the Crufts television broadcast denouncing puppy farms and telling people how to look for a well-reared puppy, or were you too busy creating disruption?

What did you do to prevent your sister's friend producing this litter? What would have prevented it?

> They have had a judges hands on them, so he/she can feel how well made they are

This is actually one of the reasons that I show my dogs as youngsters, even though I much prefer agility. Getting used to being handled in strange environments by strange people makes life so much easier when it comes to things like vet visits or petting by children.

Education is not enough. I really don't think it is. The government and health charities spend a fortune educating people about "5 a day" and healthy living and yet still we have an obesity problem - a growing problem - and heart disease and cancer continues to rise. Even if we could get the same level of education about puppy farms I don't think it would make enough of a difference quick enough. I'm not a fan of the legislative system but since the government are currently reviewing these reports, now is the time to ask for new laws to protect dogs.

I've been on the beach with the dogs too today, beautiful! :-)

What did you do to prevent your sister's friend producing this litter? What would have prevented it?
My sister is miles from me, I didn't get the opportunity to speak to her friend, but she tried to talk her out of it. I'm not convinced people like that care. They just think they'll drop them off at the shelter and someone will find them a home. Something really needs to be done to discourage them from breeding. This is why I think if they were made to make a decision early on about neutering it could make a huge impact.

The other thing is, currently the breeding licence only applies to those breeding 4 litters or more per year, right? How about if it was made to apply to anyone responsible for a litter of pups? That way, BYB could be monitored too.

    >I also feel very upset when talking to breeders who tell me about how they can't keep up with demand for their puppies and are selling them for £650 and wanting to breed more to keep the supply going. Some of them talk about dogs as if they were commodities rather than living beings. I don't like that whole mentality.

I have never met a good breeder that breeds to keep up with demand for puppies. Ever.

This is a breeder I met at Crufts, so you see, not all breeders there are good ones.

> what laws can we introduce that will stop puppy farms and BYBs?

These laws already exist, but there isn't the will to enforce them so adding more laws that will wrap the wrong people up in red tape and Costs is not the answer.

In fact some of the local by-laws that restrict good owners and breeders with swinging fees for owning entire animals, mean that only the Puppy Millers can afford to breed, as they produce the volume ans cut costs elsewhere, and of course it can be hard to prove how many animals they really have.

As has been shown in Scandinavia, responsible ownership, not neutering (which has negative effects, especially in young animals) is not the answer, as those who choose to neuter are least likely to be the oens causign the problem, but thsoe who want #Flossie to ahve puppies will not neuter.

> The other thing is, currently the breeding licence only applies to those breeding 4 litters or more per year, right? How about if it was made to apply to anyone responsible for a litter of pups? That way, BYB could be monitored too.

No they wouldn't as there would be no way of tracing them, they would ignore the rules.  Good breeders would have yet another cost to absorb, and it wouldn't' be cheap, more bureaucracy, and none of the money helping dogs.

It is a bad law, but the Dangerous dogs Act made it illegal to breed Pitbulls or the type, yet 19 years later it still goes on.

> This is a breeder I met at Crufts, so you see, not all breeders there are good ones.

Agreed, I think we have established that not all breeders are good breeders but the large majority of bad ones will not be found at Crufts, chatting to passers-by about how many litters they need to breed to keep up with demand.

There are many organisations out there campaigning against puppy farms. I think Pats web site is Puppy Alert, I'll look it up and let you know.

The Dogs Trust & PDSA do not as acharities have the right to lobby government, the RSPCA are unique in as much as they are the only charity who do have this power. Unfortunately they do not use it wisely in many cases and promote bad legisation like the Dangerous Dogs legislation which is now under review.

Really we cannot rely on charities to do the campaigning, if people want change they have to do something themselves, this would mean writing to DeFRA writing to MPs and protests. Even so the whole situation is very complicated there are no easy answers and anyone thinking there are easy answers is rather deluding themselves.

Sometimes the only way forward is to listen to all sides and take a middle route, it may not make you happy but it is the beginning of progress. Before the Dogs Trust became the Dogs Trust it was the Canine Defence League, they ran a campaign to educate people so that they would not allow their dogs to be what was termed as 'latch key dogs', dogs whose owners thought the best thing to do was to turn the dog out in the morning before they went to work and hope it came home safely at night. I remember seeing latch key dogs roaming the streets, but I honestly cannot remember seeing one in many years now. So education does work, but it is only one 'tool in the box' which can be used.

I always find that offering a carrot works better than a stick, or to use terms my dogs would approve of, training with treats works better than training with a stick to change behaviour. Unfortunately many reporters in the general media and tv have forgotten this and keep beating dog owners and dog breeders with the 'stick' rather than find a better way to get a better deal for dogs by offering helpful reports, perhaps it is easier to keep beating with a stick as trying to find helpful solutions is much harder, as you are finding out on this thread.

Two final thoughts... you are never too old to learn something new and if you have an open mind and are prepared to look at all sides of the debate you will learn something new every day.

Nopounds

As advertising a web site here is not allowed I will pm you Pats web site address.

So explain to me one thing: why then do UK rescue groups actively source dogs most of which are pups (!!) in Ireland? Every week van loads of dogs, again, mostly pups, are going to big centres in the UK and to smaller ones as well. Alot of those pups are not even from pounds but are *sourced* via free ad papers and websites.

>why then do UK rescue groups actively source dogs most of which are pups (!!) in Ireland?

I've asked myself that as well, along with why one particular rescue has a seemingly endless supply of ex-puppy farm brood bitches. To take on these poor animals is surely only supporting the evil trade.

Really we cannot rely on charities to do the campaigning, if people want change they have to do something themselves, this would mean writing to DeFRA writing to MPs and protests
- I agree that individuals need to take action, but the average person, even one that cares, doesn't have the time to get up to speed with what's happening or know who to write to. So someone needs to provide that information and mobilise people. You can email me on nopoundsforhounds@googlemail.com

    >why then do UK rescue groups actively source dogs most of which are pups (!!) in Ireland?

I've asked myself that as well, along with why one particular rescue has a seemingly endless supply of ex-puppy farm brood bitches. To take on these poor animals is surely only supporting the evil trade.

I guess that depends on whether the rescue groups pays for the dogs or just takes them from the puppy farm. I can't imagine any rescues paying for puppy mill dogs, as much as they want to help the dogs, putting money in the hands of those people is not the way forward.

>I guess that depends on whether the rescue groups pays for the dogs or just takes them from the puppy farm.

It doesn't matter. If they're knowingly taking them direct from puppy farms, time after time, then they're condoning the practice.

Actually you be surprised at what one individual can do. Take for example Sarah Steadman who is campaigning for changes to the regulation of veterinary surgeons, she only started her campaign in January and already has lots of support and has been asked to put her points to DeFRA among others.

If you want to write to DeFRA or the MPS then you can easily find details on the internet. the web site for MPs is called write to them there is also a parliamentary directory and DeFRA and the CAWC and APGAW all have contact details available on the internet.

Getting up to speed on what is happening, is one that is not limited by time alone, it is limited by how much you can learn to support your case, looking at the pluses and the negatives will give you a stronger argument. If you go in with fixed ideas they will play devils advocate and put an opposing point of view to you, so you do need to know what you want to achieve.

I used to be the chairperson for a national childrens charity and we believed in education and encouraging parents to learn and share experiences caused by the problems their children had, we also advised them to make a list of all questions they would like to ask the doctor as otherwise they would get sidetracked. In the same way you need to be aware that things are not always as they seem and not always as straight forward as you think they are.

I applaud your attempts to protest but feel you chose the wrong place. I write for the canine press I also have another job and help to run a dog training club. I often start work at 8am and am rarely finished before midnight, yet I have still had time because I made time to go on protest marches and write letters to my MP and other MPS. (In fact at one time I could ring the House of Commons offices and all the secretaries knew who I was by recognising my voice!)

I only know where to look for such information by researching it myself and asking people like the responsible and caring breeders on Champdogs where to look for information. Pat who runs Puppy alert will also have links for you.

Perhaps other champdogs folk will be able to help you find links to organisations and people to contact etc... Why not ask them they will tell you exactly what you want to know and try to explain some things you have clearly misunderstood about breeders and breeding. I will email you Pats web site etc..

It doesn't matter. If they're knowingly taking them direct from puppy farms, time after time, then they're condoning the practice.
- I'm not sure about that. If you know there is a dog suffering somewhere is it not better to intervene than to just leave it there to die? What's the other option?

Polly, it's great that you've found the time to do all that, and I agree that one person with a huge amount of energy and dedication can make a difference. But generally politicians are more concerned with the opinions of the masses rather than a vocal few, which is why I think mobilising people is important. Also, one person alone is going to find it very hard to contact every MP in the country, and only their MP will really listen to them; so again, the more people the better.  I do believe numbers matter. The exception perhaps being if you are in a position of influence, not someone like me!

And yes, please everyone, do put me in touch with other people working on these issues.

So explain to me one thing: why then do UK rescue groups actively source dogs most of which are pups (!!) in Ireland? Every week van loads of dogs, again, mostly pups, are going to big centres in the UK and to smaller ones as well. Alot of those pups are not even from pounds but are *sourced* via free ad papers and websites.

I don't have direct experience of this. I can believe it happens, but no reputable UK rescue pays for puppies.  I do see the occasional litter of pups on the transports but most of these pups are crossbreds. And that makes sense because almost all puppy farm puppies are purebred (or designer crossbreeds) and they are too valuable to be surrendered to the pounds (which charge a surrendering fee). If you check the Irish rescue websites you'll see that most dogs are crossbreeds and/or adults.  The few purebred pups that do end up in the pound (picked up as strays or surrendered for one reason or another) are usually snapped up locally.

I am very rarely offered a puppy. I did take a baby lab x a couple of years ago who turned out to be a real sweetie (and it was very good fun to have her here with us while we assessed her) . But most of the dpgs we take are between 10 months and 3yrs old. By this age you know what they're going to make in terms of temperament, energy levels and size. Pups are too much of an unknown quantity for us.

Jemima

My post wasn't directed at you, Jemima but thank you for the answer, it was rather directed at OP stating that the number of dogs in UK has risen a certain percentage.

It is no secret that UK rescues even have outfitted vans specifically for the purpose of transporting dogs from Ireland to the UK and one rescue that I know of has even hired a driver fulltime with the sideline of actively sourcing puppies here in Ireland.

I get phonecalls nearly every week from UK rescues and their transporters asking me if I have pups I'd like to place in the UK.

It is also very lucrative for UK rescues to take from Irish rescues (note, I did not write Irish Pounds). They get neutered and vacc'd dogs ready to be rehomed and often the Irish rescues shell out for the transport as well. Proper little business, I dare say.

Do you run a rescue Otterhound? I don't understand why UK rescues would want to take on more dogs, we have more than enough here already! That said, the stray dog problem is so bad in Ireland (so I understand), I'm sure many UK rescues are compelled to help.

Yes, I run a rescue for now 13 years in Ireland.

Jemima, I'd love to hear your views on what's needed to bring a stop to so many dogs ending up in pounds/ rescues.

Some new laws have been introduced in Ireland, right? Do you think they'll make any difference? I take it you don't feel that UK rescues taking dogs on from Ireland is the way forward?

>I take it you don't feel that UK rescues taking dogs on from Ireland is the way forward?

It's the way to support the Irish puppy farms to the detriment of the UK dogs, certainly. The way forward? Nothing that makes life easier for the puppy farmers is the way forward,

Polly wrote: "The Dogs Trust & PDSA do not as acharities have the right to lobby government, the RSPCA are unique in as much as they are the only charity who do have this power. Unfortunately they do not use it wisely in many cases and promote bad legisation like the Dangerous Dogs legislation which is now under review."

Of course Dogs Trust etc lobby Government. As for how the DDA came into effect, the KC was just as guilty as the RSPCA. Here's the relevant excerpt from Kenneth Baker's biography:

"The animal lobbies were very divided on the issue of controlling dangerous
dogs. The Kennel Club supported the idea of pit bulls being put down. They
did not register pit bulls as one of their recognized breeds and felt that
as fighting dogs they have no place in our society. The RSPCA, while having
no love of pit bulls, shrank from the physical elimination of the breed,
preferring instead that the dogs should be neutered and then die out over
time as the breed became extinct. Furthermore the RSPCA used the opportunity
to raise its cherished aim of the introduction of a dog licensing system -
which I  opposed. I was not in the business of legislating to control
chihuahuas when I wanted to rid the country of pit bulls. The vets were also
reluctant to destroy pit bulls en masse, believing that this went against
their version of the Hippocratic Oath. But one dog expert assured me that
"All pit bulls go bad". Unlike any other recognised breed they were
unpredictable and could not reliably trained. Steering a course acceptable
to all these differing viewpoints strained patience as well as imagination,
and I knew that whatever course of action I took I would be attacked by one
group or another.

On May 22 I announced to the House of Commons my intention to introduce
legislation to ban the breeeding and ownership of pit bull terriers and
other dogs bred especially for fighting. I then embarked on further meetings
with the animal interest group which, in addition to the RSPCA and the
Kennel Club, included the Joint Advisory Committee on Pets in Society, the
Canine Defence League, the Royal colege of Veterinary Surgeons, and the
British Veterinary Association. "

They havent been introduced yet and alot of welfare organisationys are opposed to them as they do not regulate the Puppy Millers but are nothing but a system to tax the "industry" as opposed to regulate it, never mind curbing it. No, I do not see the way forward in exporting the Irish problem, some Irish rescues even sent Greyhounds to Italy, a country which suffers from a MASSIVE stray problem and see nothing wrong with it.

>some Irish rescues even sent Greyhounds to Italy, a country which suffers from a MASSIVE stray problem and see nothing wrong with it.

Out of sight, out of mind.