My mums lab was spayed nearly 2 years ago. She had one season then 3 months later was spayed around 15 months of age.  Every 6 months or so she changes in temperament, gets swollen and is very attractive to all the males that she comes across - she too offers herself to them.  I suggested she speak to her vet who quaranteed that the operation he did was a total spay and that she has a hormonal inbalance.  It is identical to a normal season apart from the bleeding.  My mum gets upset when she is mounted and bothered by other male dogs whenever they are out.

Where do my parents stand on this? She was spayed to stop all these things from happening - do they have any grounds to have any further op or treatment funded by the vet?

Anyone else experienced this, when my bitches are spayed I never see any signs of season again.

>Anyone else experienced this, when my bitches are spayed I never see any signs of season again.

I've heard of this happening a few times; what happens is that sometimes a tiny fragment of ovarian tissue is left behind (if the bitch was near her season then the ovaries can be enlarged and more fragile to remove, for example) when the bitch is spayed. This fragment continues to secrete hormones as before, the only difference being that the bitch has no uterus and so cannot become pregnant. It might mean that the bitch needs further surgery to find and remove the tissue.

I had heard this happening before, I wasnt sure tho.  She was definately 3 months after the first signs of her season but I guess if it was her 1st then she could have been approaching another - (my GSD bitch had 2 full on very heavy bleed seasons before she was 11 months old) so the 3 month gap doesnt not always mean she is in that hormonal dorment state.

Do you think they have grounds to get it corrected- the vet charged £195.00 I think, she is a small lightweight lab.

>Do you think they have grounds to get it corrected-

The thing is, the bitch has had an operation that means she cannot get pregnant, which is what spaying is. What she could be sufferingfrom is an unforseeable and unpredictable rare occurence - it's not negligence, so there's no 'comeback' against the vet. They can certainly get it corrected, but it would most likely be at their own cost, although the vet might agree to give them a discount for the time.

I suppose so, they need to have a word with their vet, they have been with the same one for 25 years so lets hope he shows some consideration and loyalty.

main thing vets claim round here is that spaying is good for health of bitch, ie no pyro and vastly reduced chance breast cancer.  if shes still all hormonal then the breast cancer risk is not reduced.

Anyone else experienced this, when my bitches are spayed I never see any signs of season again.

Yes, I have experienced it (& we are still experiencing it) with our 8 year old Lab girl.  She had two litters & was then spayed 2 years ago.  Every 6 months she changes temperament (appears a bit down in the dumps) & every male tries to hump her or she has a nose glued to her bottom by a very rude young chap.

Spoke to my vet recently about this, & as other posters have said - a bit's been left it, apparently that's actually very common!  My vet said as she'd had a litter she was less likely to get breast tumours, but we should be aware that the problem might occur.  this particular vet is not my local vet but one I hold in high esteem for going the extra mile to discover the solution.

I will tell my parents about this later, the main reason for spaying were:

Stop the bitch having puppies

Prevent Mam tumours

Stop nearby dogs pestering her.

If the chances of mam tumours is still higher than a fully spayed bitch then I would say they are within their rights to have it corrected then.

I'm not sure how easy it is to correct it.  All I can tell you is my experience & what my vet told me.  I'm not a vet (wish I was most days of the week as it would save me a small fortune ;-))

Further to JeanGenie's post, very many years ago while working at a veterinary hospital in the US, a couple brought their bitch in with this problem. It transpired that the vet who had spayed her had just used a ligature rather than remove ovaries, part of his 'efficiency drive' it appeared...lots of very angry red faces, a bitch back in for surgery she shouldn't have needed and the practice owners pulling out all the stops to avoid a lawsuit.

My mum rang the vet and he said he did a full spay and removed everything, he also said that he could assure her its all gone as it was him that did the op and he is very good at it! ummmm

Could what your seeing be Cystitis?

Funnily enough that's almost precisely what they said about this vet at the time, how great he was and how experienced because he'd done more spays than any other vet on the staff there...no wonder.

No, last time she had exact symptoms (6 months ago) she had a urine sample trsted which was normal.  It is exactly the same as a season except there is no blood.

This happened to my female cat. She was spayed at a young age. Can't remember the age exactly, this was
more than 25 years ago.
To our horror, she came into season again, shortly afterwards. Not something you miss, it's very
obvious, and loud ;-)
We went back to our vet, who told us that a small bit of ovarie must have been left, something
that can happen. For the rest of our cat's life, she had to take a contraceptive pill once a week.
I know we tried to let her go without, but it didn't work, she promptly started a new season every time.

My friends bitch was spayed at around 2 yo and has had seasons every 6 mth since.  The same as you have stated although she also can produce small dots of blood!!!  She went in the next year to be checked and they said there was definitely nothing left behind as seemingly small fragments of ovarian tissue can cause this.  She has since had blood tests at the specialist and they think she is excreeting hormones through her pitruitry / adreanal gland?
If it would help I could pm you her email.

This is potentially Ratained Ovarian Remnant Syndrome see http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/112008.htm

I would request investigations to rule this out, a friends GSP bitch suffered from this post spay and once the diagnosis was proved the vet covered all costs to resolve the issue. In her case as the bitch was already elderly the option was to use hormonal medications to prevent oestrus rather than try to correct surgically.

K

That would be great, thanks lleonder. :-)

UPDATE:
My parents took their bitch to see the vet this week as she is now producing milk, this is around 9 weeks since her last 'season'.  The vet has agreed that he is responsible for this and is covering all costs of correcting it.  She is currently on medication to dry up her milk and is due to have a ex-lap to try and find the ovarian tissue left behind - no cost to my parents.
Nice to see that the vet has admitted he has made an error and is prepared to put it right.

I agree that it's good the vet is taking responsibility, shame the bitch has to undergo more surgery/anasethic. Hope all goes well, thought it was an interesting case, I wonder how common it is?

I know, shame she has to be opened up, hope they find it easily.  She has seasons as if she wasnt spayed, the interest other dogs pay in her is incredible.  My mum told me that 3 dogs tried to get on over the park and it was all my mum could do to get them off her and for her not to be injured.  Now she is producing milk - she must be so confused.

Hormones are terrible things (for us all!!) One of my girls has just had a bad phantom and mastitis, she must know that she was due to visit the vet for the op. I was told we must be sure that every drop of milk has gone as if she is speyed and there is still a miute amount she will continue to produce milk.
Hopefully this will put an end to amorous dogs, it must be hard for your Mum.

The timing is crucial we know, the vet wants to see her weekly I think and get it exactly correct before the surgery happens. It amazes me that vets will spay a young bitch before they have a season, how on earth do they know where a bitch is in her cycle, she could be days away from it and they wouldn't know before they open them up. Makes you wonder!

That's exactly the reason why I would never spay a bitch before her first season.

Shame vets are recommending it to alot of clients these days.  Joe public trust their vet and go along with it.  I have managed to talk the last 3 puppy owners in my class out of doing it and leaving it until later. 

Vets are damned if they do and damned if they don't, aren't they? There are people like Nopounds who thinks manatory neutering at 6 months is the best way to empty rescue kennels, and vets realise that some owners aren't responsible enough to prevent their dog producing puppies so suggest it as a possible option, and yet still get criticised for doing so. I'm very glad I'm not a vet!

It's in my puppy contract that they will not spey or neuter without consulting us and we will discuss with the vet their reason for reccomending it; I will agree to it but not before a bitch is 5 (unless there is clear vet evidence to suggest it is in the interest of the dog) I also write in their puppy packs that this will probably be something the vet will approach them about as soon as they walk through the door. In our last litter of 4 (we kept the boy) all 3 owners said this is exactly what happened!

I am just waiting for a suitable window to take my 7 year old for speying once I am sure all the milk has gone :(

It's in my puppy contract that they will not spey or neuter without consulting us and we will discuss with the vet their reason for reccomending it;

But that wouldn't be legally binding would it?

No, it isn't,  but we spend a long time talking to them and explaining why we put it in. Obviously if the vet can supply evidence that it is necessary then we will of course go with it. It is more to highlight that in general vets will recommend it asap which we are totally against carrying out a proceedure on an immature specimen.

Also how many times do we hear " I don't want to breed/ show" etc etc only for them to change their minds, so with our guidance we are happy to assist in time. It's about keeping options open.

We also endorse our pups re breeding which we will lift if health tests are carried out and we advise re stud. We lost a bitch from a protein losing disease and I informed all owners that I would not lift the endorsements as we do not know mode of inheritance, only one was unhappy with this but as I explained it would be like playing Russian roulette. I expect the KC would probably have registered if they had chosen to go ahead.