MORAY Armstrong, co-handler of Crufts BIS, the Hungarian Vizsla Sh Ch/Aus Ch Hungargunn Bear Itn Mind (Yogi), has been banned from showing at, judging or attending any KC licensed event for a year for threatening and intimidating a judge. At a disciplinary hearing at the Kennel Club today, Mr Armstrong admitted distressing Rachel Herbert after the open dog class at Welsh Kennel Club last year when he won the RCC with Yogi. He told her she would not judge again, that she had cost Mr Armstrong BIS and that she would pay for it.
The Disciplinary Sub-Committee heard there had been a complaint against Mr Armstrong - whose wife Kathryn co-owns Yogi - relating to his behaviour towards a judge after being awarded the RCC at Three Counties in 2005, for which he received a warning.

Good on the KC I say. I've seen/heard of a fair number of people doing this at shows, which I think is totally unacceptable. Any thoughts?

It looks to me as the KC are now starting to stand their ground more and enforcing the rules.

Good on them

Good for the KC, glad they acted .

Peanuts

He is apparently judging ESS at crufts next year ..or not!

A year??? well that's a real slap on the wrists...... I know we don't know the full facts and shouldn't be judge and jury but there are others who have got longer for an impetuous act which they have have probably regretted as soon as they acted :(

Is it my imagination or was he one of the partners or was he a handler. Strange that the case was just heard.

He isn't a partner although he is married to one of Yogi's co-owners. He has however handled Yogi in the past when John Thirwell hasn't been available.

well done to the KC for doing the right thing

Yes well done to the KC. People should not be able to get away with behaving like this, especially as he's been in the world of dogs for such a long time.

About time!!! 

how does he know she cost him BIS unless it was prearrranged ???

oh the joys of dog showing eh !!!!

jayne
xx

well well well what can i say !!!

> how does he know she cost him BIS unless it was prearrranged ???
>

How could you even think that?   Dog showing is always so fair!    ;-)

I was at the IKC Celtic Winners this week and watched the Rottweiler judging and the Bitch Green Star winner got RBOB and kicked off on the Dog Green Star & BOB winner and also the judge, shouting & causing a stir!!!! Hope the IKC ban's him & take the GS of him. Totally unacceptable behaviour IMO.

Yes, I've seen a certain well known young handler throw the RCC on the floor and then storm out the ring!

Stroppy brat needs a lesson in sportsmanlike behaviour.

I guess they get it from their parents!

As a steward of long standing there has been many a time when the RCC has been handed out and the owner has snatched it out of my hand when I have returned it to them after the judge has filled it in-and I have been kind enough to go and find them on their benches to hand it back.

One well known dog person told me in no uncertain terms "well you know where you can stick that ******* thing-my goodness did I want to tell them-however I was as polite as ever and informed the person that it has been placed on their bench.

Infact another high flyer mentioned that they use their RCC cards for their shopping lists.

If it was me, and a lot of my pals we would frame the RCC-ah well the rich and famous !!

I'd be over the moon with a RCC!!! It's happened at shows I've done too though - once my boy got BIS at a club open show, and the bitch owner of the RBIS sneered when offered the cup and said she wasn't interested. I would have taken it if 'only' got RBIS!!

I think some people expect it as "their right" to win top honours. I enjoy seeing people be really pleased at their award (even if I don't think their dog is the best there) and fuss their dog. Another thing that riles me is when people crowd other exhibitors or run into them with their dog to put them off.

When I was a show secretary we had to rescue the Junior Handling judge as some parents had taken exception to their decisions, such a shame as it teachs them good manners and etiquette, winning and loosing are part of life, we might not like it but wait till we get home to comment!!

Same here, re the JH business, people being abusive to the judge...and that was only a Companion show!

Some people should not be showing dogs. Dog showing is about having fun. I know one lady   from ring craft who was in tears as another exhibitor had a right go at her before she went in the ring. I told my friend it is most likely that she wanted to upset her in order to put her off in the ring. Some people will do anything to win. I have only been showing about a year and a half and when I started showing I thought each show was the only show in the world and I had to get placed. But I soon realized that there are tons of shows and even the big ones come round every year , so there is no need to get upset if you dont do well in some shows, just enjoy the day out and  know that the next show is just round the corner.  I am far more relaxed now, I just love spending the day surrounded by dogs . I do feel sorry for the dogs that have to go home with the grumpy owners. I hope to god they don't take it out on there dog

My RCC's are framed!  I am very, very proud of them!

Its sad to read of such unsportsmanship behaviour, but i will refrain from judging until more information is available...

But I soon realized that there are tons of shows and even the big ones come round every year , so there is no need to get upset if you dont do well in some shows, just enjoy the day out and  know that the next show is just round the corner.

Too right! And without that attitude, some people really shouldn't be showing.  A couple of weeks before Crufts my Ripley was 4th out of 4 at an Open show -at Crufts she took BOB and was made up. This weekend we're at an Open show again and there's every chance she won't do well as all judges are different and the competition isn't always the same -but the DOG is still the same one! And whether she is last or first, she's still my PET first and foremost.

yes it dosent matter how good a dog is ,its up to the judge to pick who gets first. and a judge who has a ring full of great dogs may just go for the one they fancy best. i too got a 1st at crufts (last year) and at another show came last lol. the judge has the right to pick the one they think is best and as they are only human, dogs can change places many times . its what makes dog showing fun. :)

> yes it dosent matter how good a dog is ,its up to the judge to pick who gets first. and a judge who has a ring full of great dogs may just go for the one they fancy best.

Completely agree. The judge won't please everybody so they may as well please themselves :-D . I can't see the point of getting upset about losing and can see even less point in getting upset with the judge or the person who beat you. The number of times we saw people come out of the ring, overjoyed at having got a place, even if it was ony 5th out of 6 only to have some breed 'guru' state that the judge knew nothing because their dog didn't win xyz and everything else there was rubbish! If that was the case then why did they enter?  If you can't go and just enjoy your day, regardless of whether you got the CC or got thrown out, then why bother to go at all? Stay at home, save your entry fee and just enjoy your dogs - isn't that why we own dogs?

Umm yes, even seen it happen in the import register.  Feel very sorry for people who seem to think that only their dog is worthy of winning. 

plus double handing going ?

>If you can't go and just enjoy your day, regardless of whether you got the CC or got thrown out, then why bother to go at all?

My dog got his stud book number last year (which I was really chuffed about, especially seeing as I was 8 months pregnant!) but since then he hasnt done too well, only getting placed at a couple of champ shows, its started to become a chore to go to shows, im not a bad sport but there is only so much of being thrown out a girl can handle so im going to give it a break for a while and concentrate on my agility and canix, I might change my mind in a few months but I have started to find it really boring especially compared to agility.  I hate being wellied and not knowing why, at least with agility you know what you have done wrong ;)

On the up side his progeny are doing really well in the ring :)

mmmmmmm one year doesnt seem a long time.

id think i'd deid and gone to heaven for just one RCC.

You would have thought that Moray Armstrong was used to the ups and downs of the show ring. Iv decided that the day that you expect to win then its probably the day that you should quit as its not any fun anymore.

In my limited experience of showing, I have also found some people really shouldn't be showing, it seems to be more about the people then the dogs, and i have seen some real bad sportsmanship!
I was so pleased to get placed at Crufts i really didn't expect it...lol, I really was on cloud nine to get a reserve placing :).

It makes me chuckle when people are watching judging...  just before they are waiting to go into the ring i've heard people say "oh the judge is facey today" then they go in the ring and get placed!! lol :) It's a funny old world!

He told her she would not judge again, that she had cost Mr Armstrong BIS and that she would pay for it.

So he was obviously assured he was going to win the Gundog group had he won BOB?  He would've had that hurdle to get over before BIS, by what he is saying it would seem the group win was a foregone conclusion?

Full story here (Sorry that the paragraphs are a bit random, I put in a few breaks to try and make it a bit easier to read :-) )

WHEN a judge gave Crufts BIS Sh Ch/Aus Ch Hungargunn Bear Itn Mind the RCC at Welsh Kennel Club last year, handler Moray Armstrong threatened her, a Kennel Club disciplinary panel has been told.
Mr Armstrong, whose wife Kathryn co-owns Hungarian Vizsla Yogi, told Rachel Herbert - who was being evaluated on her first judging appointment giving CCs - that she had cost him the BIS award and that she would pay for it.
He also implied that he had some influence over the evaluation result, which would be poor or she would fail, and that she would not judge again.

The outburst after the open dog class at the show became the subject of a KC A42 hearing of the Disciplinary Sub-Committee on Thursday of last week - four days after Yogi had been crowned Crufts BIS. Those present heard that after a similar incident at Three Counties in 2005 when he was handling a Flatcoated Retriever, Mr Armstrong had been given a warning under the KC's T11 regulation when he became abusive to a judge who, again, had given his dog the RCC.
This time Mr Armstrong was banned for a year.

Thursday's hearing took an unexpected turn when it was learnt that the witnesses scheduled to attend the event - to support the cases of the complainant and respondent - had been called off the afternoon before when a deal was struck between counsels for the KC and Mr Armstrong. The latter had agreed to admit the complaint under an agreed wording. This was: "I accept that when my dog was placed second by Mrs Herbert, given its championship history I was surprised by the decision and I accept that I made some unguarded and inappropriate remarks which were discreditable and prejudicial to the interests of the canine world.
"I accept I said that as a result of this decision Mrs Herbert was unlikely to judge again and was likely to receive a poor evaluation. And as a result of this decision I would not have an opportunity to compete for BIS and this decision was likely to mean that Mrs Herbert's credibility as a judge would suffer. I accept and regret that these comments were threatening to Mrs Herbert and caused her undue upset and distress."

The sub-committee hearing the complaint comprised chairman Wilson Young, Simon Luxmoore, Roy Page, Steve Croxford and Ian Kettle. Proceedings began with KC counsel Robert Dalling outlining what had happened at the show. 
"Mrs Herbert placed Mr Armstrong's dog second and it appears to have been this decision which caused him to address her threateningly," he said. "She noticed that his manner changed and as she was writing up the critique he told her she would not, or it was unlikely that she would not, judge in the future, and that she would receive a poor evaluation as a result of her decision.
"Mrs Herbert was left with the impression that he would interfere with the evaluation process itself to make sure she would fail. She was left upset and intimidated by the threatening tone used and had to take a break from judging to compose herself.
"It is important that people are respectful towards judges and in this case his standards fell well below those expected."

Mr Dalling spoke of the 2005 complaint saying that on that occasion his explanation had been that he knew the judge well and often had frank discussions with her. No A42 hearing took place regarding this, he said.
Although no witnesses attended Thursday's hearing, the KC applied for its costs - comprising witnesses' travel fares which could not be reimbursed, and legal fees - to be paid by Mr Armstrong.
Speaking on Mr Armstrong's behalf, his barriser Richard Tutt said his client had accepted the complaint.
"You may know that in a criminal court if someone accepts and pleads guilty one is entitled to a reduction in sentence because they have shown a degree of remorse, accepted responsibility for what they have done, saved the witnesses the burden of giving evidence and relieved the court of having a trial. I apologise that this decision was confirmed only late in the day yesterday...."
He continued: "The incident at the show related to Mr Armstrong's treatment of a judge, not treatment of a dog or breeding of dogs. As far as his antecedent history is concerned, Mr Armstrong has attended thousands upon thousands of shows and he has had one warning from four and a half years ago, and this, but nothing else."

The sub-committee would probably think that he should have known better, Mr Tutt said.
"And I have to agree with you, he should have done. But because he should have known better doesn't detract from his standing as an individual. He needs little introduction; he is a well-known, highly-regarded individual in the canine world, and would describe himself as an honest, straight-talking, 63-year-old Cumbrian.
"He has had Cocker Spaniels, Flatcoats and Vizslas. He has bred or owned the most Cocker champions since the second world war - 23 in total. He has bred and owned three Flatcoat champions and bred or owned seven Vizsla champions, two of whom are breed record holders - Sh Ch Kazval Keats with 42 CCs and the current champion Yogi with 64 CCs.
"Yogi has also won the most BIS - 18 in total - and was BIS at Crufts at the weekend."
Mr Armstrong became a championship show judge in 1980, judged the gundog group at Crufts in 2007, and has judged in 15 countries abroad, Mr Tutt said.
"He has achieved an enormous amount in the canine world and as he draws towards his twilight years it is fair to say dog shows have been his life's work. He bitterly regrets the incident and apologises to the KC and that you need to be here today. But first and foremost he apologises to Mrs Herbert. He has known her for a long time and hitherto had got on with her extremely well.
"I hope that you will take into consideration the enormous amount of work Mr Armstrong has done for the canine world during his life so far when you decide how to deal with him today."
After a lengthy consideration, the sub-committee imposed the following penalties:
* To warn Mr Armstrong as to his future conduct;
* To censure him;
* To fine him £500;
* To disqualify him from exhibiting at, taking part in, attending and/or having any connection with any event licensed by the KC;
* To disqualify him from judging at any event licensed by the KC;
* To impose an order for costs incurred by the complainant in instituting and conducting these proceedings in the sum of £1,210.
The disqualifactions are for a year.

Mr Young added: "We recognise that it is essential that those showing dogs at events such as this maintain respectful standards in the treatment of judges and their decisions. In this instance Mr Armstrong's behaviour fell well below those standards.
"This was a repeated incident; all those officiating at licensed events are deserving of respect and the sub-committee has a duty to protect them in this regards."

how awful he must have spoiled the whole day for everyone. i have a rcc in a frame too!!

i havent been showing that long, i have found everyone so friendly and helpfull, however since ive been showing my second dog folk dont seem to tell me anything anymore! im not paranoid as my partner has noticed aswell. why is that, is it the competion lol.

The actual story is on the DOG WORLD website http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/11-breaking

>The actual story is on the DOG WORLD website

Yep - that's exactly the account that NDQ cut and pasted for us.  In bold, above

Bullies deserve to be dealt with - whoever they are - good on the KC for making a stand. Lets hope other people who use bully tactics take heed.

I have had judges say time and time again how following appointments they have had abusive and threatening phone calls, letters, and intimidation tactics said to their face.  I have had my fair share of threats as a judge and exhibitor thrown at me.  Good on the WKC judge, and the 2005 Three Counties judge for standing up and getting the KC involved.  Wish more judges had the guts to out these bullies.  The KC should have acted sooner though, back in 2005.  They are quick to pounce on exhibitors for honest, and often minor mistakes.

I think IMO that if you behave like that you should be banned for life, no exceptions if this was a rule people might think twice before being so rude.
I was stewarding at a breed CH show not that long ago, the RCC dog winner said that the RCC was not worth the paper that it was printed on and threw it back at the the judge and hit her in the face with it.
I thought then that person should be banned for life !!

Peanuts

I agree they should be banned for life, or at the least 5yrs.  Was'nt there some hoo haa about a person who went in with the wrong ring number a while back who immediately after the class admitted her mistake to the steward and yet was still banned for quite a long time?  How many of us have made that same error swtiching between dogs quickly.  But how can that compare to intimidation, abuse, and clear bullying.

Yes i realise that. Was crediting it to DW, it did appear on their site first

> But how can that compare to intimidation, abuse, and clear bullying

The difference is this person thought he had influence but sadly ( for him) his influence dried up.

I am still amazed they used his history in the dog world to help lesson the penalty , if anything in my eyes it should have the opposite affect.   A person of this level should be setting exemplary behaviour.  

My heart goes out to the judge really. What an awful experience for her first top level appointment.

>Yes i realise that. Was crediting it to DW, it did appear on their site first

Yes sorry, you're right. I must have missed copying the bit at the very end of the page that said it was from DW :-)

> I am still amazed they used his history in the dog world to help lesson the penalty , if anything in my eyes it should have the opposite affect. A person of this level should be setting exemplary behaviour.

Yes I totally agree this. I was also amazed when I read the article.

What an obnoxious piece of work he is, very convenient it was all held off until after Crufts.  I love showing but I'm becoming so sceptical.

I was at a show this recently and there were 2 dogs in a class before me (only one class for the breed) and a someone's dog was beaten by a puppy (who later got puppy group 1) and she was NOT happy, swearing and moaning to anyone who could listen to her about how awful the dog that won was.  As we all know, Open shows are a bit of a lottery, but I think she really spoilt the day for the other exhibitor who I think felt really guilty that their dog had done well and was apologising.