In an ideal world "- I'm aiming for a world where there are no dogs in pounds! A world where people adopt dogs from those who breed them not to make profit but for the love of those dogs."

In an ideal world, there would be no need of social workers to intervene when inadequate parents neglect their children, there would be no need for legislation to keep paedophiles away from children, no need for clinics to wean our young people away from drugs, no need for jails because there would be no criminals to inhabit them.    There would be no need for armies, no need for churches/mosques etc ...because we lived in an ideal world with free speech for everyone.

Sadly this is not an ideal world - we have to make the best of the world we do live in - which means that caring breeders should continue to breed good, healthy dogs, that caring people will continue to campaign against puppy farms, along with all the other wrongs of the world.

We must all campaign to improve conditions for all - not just dogs, but for babies and children here in this country and everywhere else on this planet.   I'm aiming for a world that does not destroy itself before my grandchildren have grown and hopefully, they may make a better fist of things - and I do hope that they and their children  will be able to have the pleasure of owning a puppy.

In your ideal world of course, this will not happen.

oh and by the way , the dogs in pounds that are not pedigree but cross breeds (and i have nothing against crosses i have had quite a few) where are their breeders ? i bet very few get returned to their breeders when people can longer keep them , sold for £50 down the pub or in the local freebie ads and dont care where they end up and strange that you dont protest against them.

>The Kennel Club is the route of the suffering

What nonsense! It's the commercial puppy farmers and the people who have 'just one litter from sweet little Flossie' (who's just a pet so there's no need for health tests, because that's just for show dogs) who do the damage. they're the ones whose puppies are most likely to end up in rescue.

>I would like to see a world where the disgusting individuals who produce litter after litter with no regard for the animal welfare are targetted and stopped and people who put a lot of thought, research, money on health testing etc etc to provide people with well bred, well raised, healthy puppies that are loved by their new owners celebrated rather than treated like the scum of the earth!!

Exactly right. Those who vilify the people with supremely well cared-for and cherished dogs and take the utmost care that any offspring their dogs produce (and not all show dogs wil be bred from) are carefully placed in forever homes have got their priorities totally twisted and play right into the puppy farmers' hands.

I'm starting to think that I'm speaking in a different language! :-)

We targeted Crufts because of the Kennel Club breed standards and because we know that they result in inbreeding and suffering, but also because it was a good place to reach many people interested in dogs, including people attending the event and those watching at home. Where else could you reach that kind of audience? The message wasn't specifically directed at the breeders at the event, but all breeders and all people considering getting a dog.

Over 50 dogs are euthanised every day in this country by the RSPCA and council pounds alone. I'm not going to sit by and let that happen anymore, I cannot bear it. If people keep breeding puppies at the current rate, this will just result in more dogs being euthanised.

I don't want a world where we don't have dogs in our lives. I never said I didn't want people to have the joy of adopting a puppy. But there's a finite number of suitable homes for dogs, and the number of dogs we have far exceeds this, so naturally the number of dogs bred must be reduced.

> so naturally the number of dogs bred must be reduced

Speaking a different language?   No - targetting the wrong people!  

99% - and yes, it should be 100% - of the breeders at Crufts are ethical breeders who care about their dogs, who invest their time and love into the litters they breed.   Just how many of the posts on Champdogs have you read?   Have you read those that bang on and on about not breeding just for the sake of it - have you read about the thought and trouble that people put into ensuring that puppies that have been bred with love go to forever homes?

Take off your blinkers - you might find that you are singing from our hymn sheet - every pup a wanted pup!

Adopting puppies from pounds is most certainly NOT the answer - ensuring that there are no puppies going into pounds in the first place is.

Yes, I do believe we do want the same thing! I'm not targetting the people on this forum, just trying to have a conversation and gather some views about what you think needs to be done. So far, I've not had any suggestions on how to stop dogs ending up in pounds in the first place. As I say, education and voluntary neutering has not worked, so we need something else.

The main reasons dogs end up in pounds is because people have been able to buy a dog without any checks regarding their suitability and then give them up when they realise the dog doesn't suit their lifestyle or that they cannot care for them. So I would suggest that mandatory assessments are introduced to ensure that the prospective home can afford the dogs, has someone at home most of the day, a secure back garden, can offer the right level of exercise etc.

Considering half the dogs in the UK are left at home all day while their owners are out at work, it would be hugely beneficial to introduce a law to make it illegal to leave a dog unattended at home for more than 5 hours. This again would help to stop people taking on a dog if they don't have the right home for them.

Many states in the US have a law which makes neutering at 6 months mandatory, unless a breeding licence is bought every year. This would help stop people breeding from "Flossie".

And I stand by my original proposal that if people weren't able to profit out of selling puppies many of them wouldn't do it anymore, so this could also have a massive impact. The people who genuinely care about their dogs could still continue to breed, since we all love to have dogs in our lives, but people who breed for the money should be stopped.

If you have other suggestions I am all ears, honestly!

> If you have other suggestions I am all ears, honestly!

Read the posts by long standing posters on the breeding forum!

Nopounds if the general population stopped buying dogs from puppy farmers there would not be puppy farms.

Until people are educated and understand that buying a cheap dog out of a back of a van, or from a mate's of a mate, will end up being more expensive in the long run. (Vets fees, behaviour problems etc)
Yes the dog you get from a breeder is more expensive, but if you have done your home work you would find out what that line of breed is all about. (Illness, length of life etc.)

I own my own kennels, and part of it I let a dog rescue use, so I know first hand what is coming through our doors, one thing I can tell you is 1 in 200 is a pedigree. Then if it has papers I ring the breeder it is not here for long.

So are pedigree dog breeders the cause of the dog explosion? Answer no, 1st the recession, owners not being able to afford things, one of the first things out the door has been the dog. 2nd status dogs going out of fashion. 3rd People being unable to deal with behaviour problems with their dog, easier to get rid, someone else's problem.

Question: Is this the fault of the Pedigree dog breeder or the Kennel Club?

You pointed a loaded gun at the wrong people and then sounded shocked at our reaction. I think you need to take the blinkers off and look at what is in the pounds and ask "why are they there and were did they come from".
The answer is simple there is a market for cheap dogs, people buy a £300 dog instead of £500, but later pay £1000 in vet/trainer fee's. Why lack of education (what dog would be best for me, etc), then there is the status dogs and finally there is lets have so puppies I always wanted a litter of puppies.

Same Question: Is this the fault of the Pedigree dog breeder or the Kennel Club?

So answer this question, who out there is trying to educate the public? Would one of these organisations be The Kennel Club, and the breeders you have been pointing a finger at?

And just to reiterate I totally agree with this: "ensuring that there are no puppies going into pounds in the first place is [the answer]."

Adopting from shelters is like mopping the floor when the tap keeps running. We need to turn off the tap. And part of turning off the tap means reducing the number of dogs being bred, which is why we say to adopt from shelters rather than creating additional demand by going to breeders/ pet shops/ puppy mills. While people keep creating the demand, unscrupulous people will keep breeding them.

you say education hasn't worked...but has there ever really been any serious education??  I work in a pet store so you know and the amount of general public who come in wanting to have that one litter or put their dog at stud without health tests is madness!  I have advised time and time again to not breed, get neutered etc and had people get the right ass with me....here everyone has the same views pretty much.

There has been talk of dog licenses...again pros and cons.  If they were compulsory and the money on them went to dog shelters then fantastic!  However I fear the government would just use dog licenses as another form of tax therefore only benefitting them and punishing the responsible dog owners.

Am I missing something here ? How are the 'good' breeders going to pay for health tests etc etc if they aren't allowed to sell the puppies ?? Surely a lot will either give up or start cutting corners ?? Other methods of 'paying' for puppies will only result in a black market, taking us back full circle to 'backyard breeders' - ie those who don't abide by the 'rules'. Nothing good will come out of this :(

Daisy

To turn the tap off, stop people buying cheap dogs from the puppy farms.

> I'm starting to think that I'm speaking in a different language! :-)

No you are not speaking a different language, what is happening is you have a fixed idea and are not interested in learning from decent caring breeders like the people on this forum, who by the way do not make a profit on their puppies because they spend as much if not more on health testing and the highest standards of rearing their dogs and puppies than the puppies cost.

A labrador for example from a puppy farm or back yard breeder will cost the same and in some cases MORE than a well bred labrador purchased from a breeder who does all they can to ensure the puppies they breed are the best that can be produced. If I remember rightly at presnt labradors have five DNA tests (approximately £250 each) an annual eye test hip scoring, elbow scoring and thats just the tip of the 'iceberg'. Then there is the feeding of the bitch to raise her to breeding age, plus showing or working her (Same applies for the stud dog too), then the annual vet fees inocculations etc and when about the mated and when in whelp and after whelping there are the extra vet fees to be paid for making sure all is going well. Add to that the cost of the extra foods the bitch will need while in whelp and after whelping, the extra food needed to rear healthy puppies. The cost of bedding and special under pad heating or infra red lamps for the bed area for the bitch and later for the puppies too, I could go on and on there is much more to it than I have listed. Checking new homes and owners out, (a friend of mine flew out to Switzerland to check out a potential buyer). Profit = none. Dogs in rescue one or two unless the breeder hears about it first and gets the dog back. Puppies registered with the Kennel Club only

Average puppy farmer or back yard breeder outlay amounts to a plastic bed no nestling materials or blankets, no health checks, no heating, no proper food or in many cases water for the bitch or the puppy, dogs kept in dirty barns or dirty rooms, often in cages stacked one on top of another many dogs kept in a very small space and often in the dark and in many cases cold dank places. Profit = hundreds and in many cases thousands per annum. Dogs in rescue 99.9% Puppies registered with the Kennel Club (because it is against the law for the KC to refuse registration, they have been taken to court by puppy farmers and were heavily fined when they lost the right to refuse registration) or one of the two commercial registers operating in the UK. We are not allowed to mention the names of these registers because they will sue.

>
> We targeted Crufts because of the Kennel Club breed standards and because we know that they result in inbreeding and suffering, but also because it was a good place to reach many people interested in dogs, including people attending the event and those watching at home. Where else could you reach that kind of audience? The message wasn't specifically directed at the breeders at the event, but all breeders and all people considering getting a dog.
>

So you believed the PDE programme? Did you do any research yourself? If not you might find it useful to do so because you might be surprised at what you find out. I am currently writing a series of article for the paper I work for on breeding you can send me a private message if you would like to know more.
The type of breeder on this forum will be concerned not just for their own dogs but for the breeds they support, they will raise thousands of pounds per annum to fund research into health issues, and in many cases the health research they fund has major implications for human medicine. Syringomyelia mentioned in PDE programme is being researched not only by Clare Rushbridge who appeared in the programme but by another research team who started work with the Cavalier Club in 2005 as they wanted to find out what causes the condition as human children suffer from it too.

> Over 50 dogs are euthanised every day in this country by the RSPCA and council pounds alone. I'm not going to sit by and let that happen anymore, I cannot bear it. If people keep breeding puppies at the current rate, this will just result in more dogs being euthanised.

Sadly most dogs in pounds are staffordshire bull terrier crosses, bred by ignorant and irresponsible people. I have worked with council pounds writing articles on the problems they have so I do know what I am talking about. Many of the dogs rescued by the RSPCA are put down but did you know for example that the RSPCA will not allow Breed Rescues to help them rehome dogs? The official policy is: If the dog is one of many taken from a premises at any one time examples being the St Bernards in the news not so lng ago or the 200 labradors they took a few years ago then they ask the breed rescues for help, but if it is only one dog of a breed they will not work with breed rescue at all as they feel they can offer a wider range of potential owners for that dog. If the dog has special requirements which only a breed club can advise on this is not taken into consideration and the dog will often end up going out to owners then back to rescue until the poor thing becomes a yoyo dog who ends up being put down as it becomes impossible to rehome. Also if you are concerned about the pounds in the UK being full to over flowing do you support the Southern Irish charities shipping their dogs which are unwanted into pounds and rescues in the UK?

Have you ever looked into puppy farming? Have you ever done anything about puppy farms? Sat on a stakeout with volunteer rescurers?

Seems to me you have fixed ideas, like to believe rubbish tv programmes, and do not look behind the real reasons why so many dogs end up in pounds. I could go on but my reply is already way too long for a forum and to be honest I really don't think you are interested in finding out the truth about what is really going on anyway. So while you protest in the wrong places breeders and owners like the ones here will continue to do everything we can to improve the lot of dogs as whole not just our pedigree friends.

>

if the general population stopped buying dogs from puppy farmers there would not be puppy farms.
- Agreed! But education is simply not enough. People aren't prepared to pay hundreds of pounds for dogs. It is a demand and a supply issue. If we cannot stop the demand (decades of education have not done a thing) then let's do something about the supply by stopping puppy farms from being able to profit out of breeding dogs.

So are pedigree dog breeders the cause of the dog explosion?
- I believe they create the demand for pure breeds, that is the problem. 75% of the dogs in the UK are pure breeds, this number is not nearly so high in other countries. If there was not this demand for pure breeds, the inbreeding problem (which is particularly bad in puppy farms) would not be so common. If people were happy with a dog of any mixed breed, would the puppy farmers still mate mother and son?

I own my own kennels, and part of it I let a dog rescue use, so I know first hand what is coming through our doors, one thing I can tell you is 1 in 200 is a pedigree.
- I have worked in many shelters, and I disagree with this 1 in 200 estimate. From my experience at least, there are many more pedigrees. Considering 75% of the dogs in the UK are pedigree, 1 in 200 hardly seems possible.

The answer is simple there is a market for cheap dogs, people buy a £300 dog instead of £500, but later pay £1000 in vet/trainer fee's. Why lack of education (what dog would be best for me, etc), then there is the status dogs and finally there is lets have so puppies I always wanted a litter of puppies.
- Demand for cheap dogs, allowing people to buy dogs when they can't provide suitable homes, lack of education, dogs being treated as commodities, they are all part of the problem. But if you're proposing that education is going to solve all of this, again, I say it is not enough.

So answer this question, who out there is trying to educate the public? Would one of these organisations be The Kennel Club, and the breeders you have been pointing a finger at?
- I know the Kennel Club are supposedly educating on these issues, but they also still condone inbreeding and create demand for pure breeds (simultaneously disregarding mixed breeds), so I don't think what they do counts for much. RSPCA, PDSA, Dogs Trust, Blue Cross have all been educating for years. What impact has it had? More stray and euthanised dogs last year than ever ...

Posted by Pat on this forum...... Will you attend?

On  Saturday 27th March a peaceful protest will be held between 10am and 2pm at the Willow Centre, Wickford, Essex.  This is alongside Wickford High Street and a short walk from Wickford Railway station (Liverpool Street, London to Southend) line.

The reason why Wickford has been chosen is because nearby is Runwell Kennels (buys puppies from puppy farms Irish Rebublic), Willow Pets, and another at Crays Hill, all have a pet shop licence.

It is important that as many people as possible attend, even if just for an hour, to keep the numbers up.  If you are close by and could attend then you would be most welcome. Your time would be appreciated, thank you. 

Nicely put Polly.

nopounds...forgive me if i have overlooked this in any posts but you go on about pedigree dogs being overbred...so what about the 'fashionable cross breeds' like labrodoodles cockapoos etc etc who are being overbred, sold at silly prices and no health tests done??  I see hundreds of these for sale and many of these end up in rescue...

Great Polly! I will be in London that day, but at another event, but I will try to make it. Is this organised through an organisation or is it just a group of individuals?

nopounds you really have a one sided view if you are not willing to open your eyes and ears what are the general public going to do.

I think Polly has answed you better than I could ever do.

> Over 50 dogs are euthanised every day in this country by the RSPCA and council pounds alone.

And I bet the majority of them are crossbreeds & mongrels.

nopounds, do you actually know any reputable breeders or have spoken to any?  Or are you taken the blinkered view all pedigree dogs are unhealthy and all breeders are out to line their pockets?  I'm very pleased to say dogs in my ownership and some I have bred are getting to ages over 13 & 14 without any major health issues.  In 20+ years of owning my breed, I have bred 3 litters.   If I were to sit down and try & guess what my outlay has been on my dogs I would be massively in the red. 

Try concentrating on puppy farms in Wales, those who think that their pet quality dogs & bitches should be bred from because they've forked out what, to them, is a small fortune on a puppy & breeding from the dog is looked at some sort of recompense.  These are the sorts of people who's dogs end up in rescue's because they just don't care who they sell to or where they sell too.

To turn the tap off, stop people buying cheap dogs from the puppy farms
- Please tell me how

So you believed the PDE programme?
- I saw for myself what inbreeding causes, the evidence was clear. Are you saying those cases were fabricated? I also have a rescued pug who has been in and out of the vets his whole life. So yes, I do believe there are many pure bred dogs out there suffering because of bad breeding. Do you disagree?

to be honest I really don't think you are interested in finding out the truth
- Then why have I spent hours today sharing with you my ideas and putting up with rude comments and asking for input? So far, I still haven't had any suggestions on what should be done.

This will not be a particularly "high profile" protest, nopounds - but it is one which comes from the heart.

And in order to assist you, the trains from Wickford come out from Liverpool St station, at 15 mins, 34 mins & 55 mins past each hour on a Saturday, the journey time is 36 minutes and the cost of a day return ticket is £12.36.

Of course Runwell Kennels are not very salubrious ....the proprietor has been charged by Trading Standards before...although now going by the name of Runwell Kennels this business is solely a pet shop which buys in puppies from Ireland.   Was exposed by BBC in the late 90s - still continuing in the same business despite paying fines ....maybe this requires checking out, Nopounds!

nopounds...forgive me if i have overlooked this in any posts but you go on about pedigree dogs being overbred...so what about the 'fashionable cross breeds' like labrodoodles cockapoos etc etc who are being overbred, sold at silly prices and no health tests done??  I see hundreds of these for sale and many of these end up in rescue...
- Is anything known about their health? My understanding is that their health is better because of the larger gene pool. But anyway, making money out of cross breeds is just as wrong as making money out of pedigrees, and allowing cross breeds to go to the wrong homes is also just as wrong as pedigrees going to the wrong homes - it all ends up with dogs being abandoned and euthanised.

Just so that you can check this out - might I suggest you look at http://sites.google.com/site/puppyalert/news2009

Thank you Lokis Mum. I will look in to that. Sadly the event I'm going to in London is from 10 - 2 and I see this clashes with the protest. Such a shame. Do you need a hand with anything, like press releases or leaflets. I'd really like to help.

>So far, I still haven't had any suggestions on what should be done.

Campaign to make sure that the current laws are adhered to would be a start.

Tarring caring breeders who health test their breeding stock, don't over-breed them and give them a good quality of life as family pets first and foremost with the same brush as those who keep their animals in cramped, unhygenic conditions, breeding from them season after season with never a health test in sight, is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and about the worst thing you could do for the future of our beloved dogs.

Do you mind if I put details of this protest on my website? (Webite addresses removed by moderator)

nopounds, OK we can see you are interested, but to find the truth you need to open mind to what is being said.

The diffrence between us and the puppy farms and street breeders is that we are passionate about our breeds.

> Is anything known about their health? My understanding is that their health is better because of the larger gene pool.

A common fallacy, unfortunately. A crossbreed, especially one like the 'labradoodle' where both parent breeds can suffer from the same inherited conditions, are at no less risk of illness than their pedigree parents. Their breed mean hipscore, at 16, is worse than both labradors (14) and standard poodles (15).

>Do you mind if I put details of this protest on my website?

It's against the terms of service of this site to promote any website or business with which you're affiliated on the forum.

> My understanding is that their health is better because of the larger gene pool.

If the parents are not health-tested, how can you suggest that their health is better???   Poodles and labradors will still have hip dysplasia - put two together and you'll have labradoodles with bad hips too.   And temperament?   That cannot be guaranteed!

Couldn't agree more, don't suppose many puppy farmers were watching BIS, so the protest was undoubtedly aimed at pedigree dog breeders which is not generally where the welfare problem comes from.  Nopounds suggests that the only way forward is to actually ban the sale of dogs.  I don't think this is by any means a workable solution. 

The Kennel Club is at least trying to create a practical solution, through it's Accreditted Breeder Scheme. I admit there are flaws in the scheme and it will surely need to evolve to really tackle some of the current problems, but at least through educating the public to buy from only responsible, ethical breeders, they are surely directing people away from the puppy farmers.

> Sadly the event I'm going to in London is from 10 - 2 and I see this clashes with the protest.

No - the protest is between 10 & 4 pm - you can get from London Liverpool St to Wickford in 36 minutes - you should be able to get there.  But is this not a high-enough profile for you?

Lokis Mum, I have taken part in many many peaceful protests, marches, grassroots education schemes, hands on work, as well as direct action, and not just for animals but for people and the environment too. So no, it is not too low profile for me. Everything needs to be done. That said, if a low profile protest can be made higher profile with a press release, a good image etc, then why not?

It's against the terms of service of this site to promote any website or business with which you're affiliated on the forum.
That's a real shame. If you want more people at the protest, you need to advertise it!

I think that post was directed at you - I am certainly not affiliated to Runwell Kennels :D

Oh, you mean I can't mention my website? Ok then. So to you Lokis Mum/ Polly, do you mind if I advertise your protest? I will use exactly the words you have.

So what if, rather than people not being able to sell puppies, it was that they were not able to profit from them? If responsible breeders don't profit anyway, then they will be fine, but it would stop puppy farms from profiting. Perhaps a law which would mean that breeders can only cover costs?

> So to you Lokis Mum/ Polly, do you mind if I advertise your protest? I will use exactly the words you have.

No,no -  I can take no credit for this protest - it's Pat's - see her post here http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/122332.html

I'm just an advocate!

> Perhaps a law which would mean that breeders can only cover costs

Why penalise good breeders ? How could you possibly enforce this ? Why are you so insistent on penalising the good, responsible breeder ? Surely it is better to concentrate, what would be only limited resources, on preventing bad breeding ?? Good breeders are self-policing.

Daisy

It has been mentioned that profit keeps the puppy farmers trading and that if no profit is made then they would cease. Education to the public has not made a difference in people buying from puppy farms because at the end of the day to a lot of people it is cost - we are all with what ever we buy looking for a 'bargain', that being said in an ideal world getting a bargain wouldn't come into play when getting ourselves pets. We would research properly check out breeders and health tests etc but sadley this does not happen.

A person looking for a puppy may do some research on the internet but then compares prices, the choice of breed price could vary greatly and unless they know what questions to ask and what to look for could easily be duped into buying the puppy from a non reputable person.

Going to a rescue centre can put people off because they dont fit the criteria required as someone has already pointed out. This then pushes these people to buying a pup and more than likely from a puppy farmer. If they do fit the critria then the next issue is sometimes the 'donation' required from the rescue centre, i believe it can be well over £100 (i maybe wrong but the last rescue i fostered for charged this) this amount could cause people to think 'well if i am paying this for an older dog with perhaps unknown history i could get a pedigree pup for not much more money' but obviously this is a puppy farmed pup.

to oust out puppy farmers would it not be an idea as well as education but to bring the cost of buying a pup from a good reputable breeder down so that the difference between a puppy farm pup and a well bred pup is not that great causing the purchaser to go for the well bred pup with all the necessary health tests and constant breeder support?
the same could apply to the rescue centres that the donation asked for is a ture donation not a 'minimum' amount and that critria is not rigid but adjusted slightly to each dogs needs and to what a person can offer?

I understand rescues rely greatly on donations to keep going but surely its better to get dogs rehomed and get some money in rather than a full rescue costing loads.

These are just my thoughts on this subject and i know that when breeding a litter of pups if done properly does not generate a huge profit if an, but as good breeders that have done everything correctly and produced a good specimen of the breed can we not reduce purchase cost to ensure that our well bred pups are demanded more than puppy farmed pups?

So, everybody should go to rescue centres. Perhaps like the one we got a dog from for my mother in law a few years ago -they just sold the dog to us, no questions asked at all, and she was in season at the time.

When we went round looking for a suitable dog (what we found was a Labrador, who was young but lived for all of 3 years, and cost us an absolute fortune in vet's fees -ten times as much as my home bred pedigree dogs) almost every single dog in the kennels was a Staffie or Staffie cross, all adults. There is no way on earth those will be suitable for EVERYONE who wants a dog, and not everyone WANTS such a dog. Personally, and I am sure there are many others like me, if I could not get a dog of the size, coat and above all TEMPERAMENT that I know suits me and my lifestyle and that I can cope with, I'd rather not have one at all. Who is going to want to make life difficult for themselves by being forced to pick a dog that isn't what they actually want? That has unknown health history and unknown temperament? I've had many rescue dogs, and of course I want people to take on rescues, but it will NEVER be an ideal situation for everyone. In fact in many cases it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

> Breeders cannot in all good conscience keep producing more and more puppies when our shelters are already full to the brim struggling to rescue, care for and re home dogs. But the simple fact is that the more dogs that are brought in to this world, the more dogs there will be without homes, and the more dogs will have to be euthanized or live their lives in a kennel.

So should good breeders who vet homes well and take lifelong responsibility for the puppies/dogs they produce stop breeding and then only the Back Yard breeders, Puppy Farmers and commercially motivated would reed even more.

This happens already, good breeders help with rescue and limit their breeding yet there are always dogs coming into rescue bred by idiots and sold to the wrong homes.

the problem will not go away while there is a demand for puppies from unsuitable owners,w ho can always buy from the wrong kind of breeder.

The protesters would be far better protecting at their Local Authority offices who issue breeding Licences to commercial Kennels who have not the staff or facilities to even provide basic care and who do not enforce the breeding and sale of dogs welfare Act, which requires puppies to be identifiable to their breeder etc.

It's probably been mentioned already but when taking into account the costs of the quality stud dog, the costs of campaigning the quality bitch to ensure she is as full of quality as you think she is, the costs of the health checks, the feeding of the pregnant bitch, the vet check of the puppies, the TIME spent by the breeder invested in these puppies from inception to conception to matching pup to owner to a lifetime of advise and support, the quality breeders truly make a massive loss financially.  For all of the above, for a puppy that has had a happy healthy start and many years of happiness with me, I would pay a heck of a lot more than the standard £500 for my breed.

If people want to buy a lemon, then let them.  These days, in this disposable era, where partners, children, dogs and more are discarded so easily, the only people will learn is the hard way (and sometimes not even then).  I think that the RSPCA have more to answer for than the Kennel Club, the RSPCA now have the ear of the public and parliament as well as masses of money.  They should be out in Force gunning for the puppy farmers the legal way, in an official capacity.  I very much doubt, that given the personalities involved, puppy farmers obey every letter of the law.  Perhaps the Animal Welfare Act needs updating though.  Certainly the RSPCA need to move their agenda from "pedigree dogs" to "puppy farmers".  The Kennel Club is really only a registry and can only do so much.

On a far more personal note, I despise protests.  I do what I feel is right for me, I will buy a dog as I see fit, I will buy non-organic food as I see fit.  I have absolutely NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to interfere in anyone elses daily life, and woe betide anyone who interferes in mine - how dare the anti-fur protesters in London come and shout in my face, I would never be so rude and I certainly would not spoil anyone's dog show.  I will never ever force my own beliefs on another person.  If they want to know I will tell them but I won't volunteer the info - if the airhostess wants to wear to much make up, who am I to tell her it looks like a mask.  I am selfish, yes but I am not ignorant.  Let people come to you, don't force them with protests.  There is a gag-reflex, when you try to force information onto people, they don't take it in, they have to want to know it.

Well done to all of the CD regulars who have spoken so much sense.

> I think the solution actually is to stop puppies from being sold. Making money is the main motivation for puppy farmers and other breeders, if they can't profit out of it, they won't do it. This wouldn't mean that we suddenly have no dogs in the UK, since those people who genuinely love dogs would continue to breed them and thus we could go to them knowing they have the dogs best interests at heart, not their back pockets.

Now I love my dogs, but it costs a lot of money as well as time and heartache and long term commitment.

I would love to be in a position to afford to do this for nothing, but I am not a charity and do not have bottomless pockets, as ti is I invest in my breed by travelling abroad for new bloodlines, importing etc, none of which is profitable, so a little of my outlay back when I sell my puppies seems only fair.

There is also the issue that people rarely value something that has cost them nothing.

I so not like seeing some fashionable breeds, and crosses being sold for silly amounts of money, totally out of proportion to a breeders short or long term costs.

>There is also the issue that people rarely value something that has cost them nothing.

So very true. A 'freebie' is more readily discarded than something a person's paid for. Easy come, easy go.

> - I believe they create the demand for pure breeds, that is the problem. 75% of the dogs in the UK are pure breeds, this number is not nearly so high in other countries. If there was not this demand for pure breeds, the inbreeding problem (which is particularly bad in puppy farms) would not be so common. If people were happy with a dog of any mixed breed, would the puppy farmers still mate mother and son? >

In Nordic counties such as Norway, Sweden and Finland the amount of pure bred dogs is much much higher than in UK.
You are actually more likely to find the right dog to fit your lifestyle in a pure bred dog whose ancestry and traits are known, compared to a mixed breed do who might inherit any traits from its parents, sometimes the mixed traits they inherit form each parent breed can make the dog very difficult to live with.

Guess where these pure bred dogs come from? From small scale caring breeders who educate and select their puppy buyers very carefully(like do the responsible breeders in UK).
There are no puppy farms of the scale we have here in UK/Ireland. Neither are you allowed to sell puppies in petshops...
The rescue issues are not there either, there is no over flowing shelters, most dogs in the shelters are mixed breed and from "accidental litters", origins not known, given away to anybody who is willing to have such puppy(= so similar to puppies sold in shops&by pet breeders in UK).

The situation there is pretty good and has been archived by education by the kennel clubs in those countries and the breeders who are passionate about their dogs(the people who show, work& health test their dogs as this is part of the passion, wanting to better the breed).

Another big reason for not having rescue issues is also laws against commercial selling of puppies.
I'm nearly 30 years old and I have never seen a puppy sold in a shop in Finland(I'm Finnish) so the laws have been there for +20 years, UK is VERY behind on this welfare issue!!

Also, believe or not, spaying and neutering of dogs is not very common in Nordic countries either.
Most dogs are entire through their whole lifes but live perfectly happy life as a pet with no accidental offspring...
Again, education is the reason there is very few accidental litters, not forcing people to spay and neuter.
Since having a dog in UK(2 years) I have been amazed by the amount of people who seem to think pure bred dog, will you be breeding from her, you make loads of money!
I had dogs for years while I lived in Finland and I do not think it was once suggested by a passer by that I should be breeding from my dogs! Education again... There is very little market to "pet bred puppies", e.g. unregistered puppy from non health tested parents, people know to demand papers and health tests.

You really should target the puppy farming/commercial selling outlets instead of breeders who are very selective where they let their puppies go to and are in most cases trying to put people off in having a puppy rather than selling to anybody who comes and wants one. The real problem in UK lies with puppy farming and pet breeders and general public being mislead by programs such as PDE to believe "show breeders" and their dogs are evil/unhealthy.

> The main reasons dogs end up in pounds is because people have been able to buy a dog without any checks regarding their suitability and then give them up when they realise the dog doesn't suit their lifestyle or that they cannot care for them.

Quite correct, but these are the people good breeders will not home to.

An ethical breeder feels a moral obligation cowards their puppies,a nd a lifelong interest in their welfare.

Therefore such a person will be very careful out of pure self interest even (after all integrating an adult dog back into the fold can be hard/impossible/costly in kennelling etc).

The casual breeder actually if US figures are to be believed is actually the major cause of the problem, they simply do not believe or consider that flossies lovely pups might end up in rescue, and it doesn't occur to them to offer to take the pups back, many would be unable to do so.

Many people will actually choose such a breeder over an experienced knowledgeable show/working breeder, because they only want a pet, and of course they know puppy farmers are bad. Sadly many PF pretend to be people who have let Flossie have pups, so no need for health testing,a s it will only be one litter (yeah this season).  Also many people feel getting a PF pup are rescuing it, as it is already there.

The only way dog breeding is profitable is if it is not done properly/to it's best and no responsibility is taken after the pup leaves the person who bred/traded it.

I am one of those awful breeders who is trying to help re-home a 3 year old I bred, the owners have had a change in lifestyle (it sadly happens to the seemingly most secure homes), and I have two potential homes lines up, but the owners are still wavering (situation is everyone out at work/College), as they love their dog.

My bred is a classic example of good breeders curtailing their breeding hoping to rescue the need for rescue.

The number of pups registered annually has halved (98 pups last year 5 the year before) in just the time I have been in the breed (18 years), and is a third of what it was in the 70's when our rescue was set up. 

Are there fewer dogs coming into rescue as a result?  NO, the PF and BYB's continue breeding and bred supporters (ever fewer) are working to support rescue.

> So what if, rather than people not being able to sell puppies, it was that they were not able to profit from them? If responsible breeders don't profit anyway, then they will be fine, but it would stop puppy farms from profiting. Perhaps a law which would mean that breeders can only cover costs?

This is the problem, the price of a puppy for a breeder to cover costs is what will make a profit for a puppy Farmer backyard breeder as they so not have the ongoing costs of a good breeder and cut corners on proper care etc.

for example travelling to Timbuktu too to mate your bitch as opposed to using your handy poodle male to serve all your little small breed bitches and no health tests for decent living for any of them, do you see?