Dear all,
I hope someone on this forum can help us shed some light on what might be wrong with our 17 days old pup.
The story so far. We have had a litter of 3 on one of our girls. This is our first litter and we are of course kennel club registered and are very involved in our breed and are breeding to hopefully until improve and add positively to the breed. So we were very excited when after waiting years for the right moment, now finally have our first litter under our own prefix.

But we are now having problems with one of the pups. A girl. She has always been the biggest and strongest in the litter and have after they opened their eye only shown very healthy signs of becoming increasingly curious of whats going on around her what she could chew and how the little brothers could be pushed around. It should be said, that all pups have been doing very well so far. Gaining 13-14% weight everyday, which has gone down slightly the last 4 days, which I guess is only to be suspected as they grow in size. All of them have been very quiet, lots of yawning, stretching and in general rolling around seeming very contempt with life so far, with big nice full bellies. Being only 3 in the litter has of course meant that there's plenty of milk to go around. 

The girl has always been the biggest. In fact very very big and fat! But only shown signs of health and was always the first one on to the milk and the last one off! The problems started 2 days ago were I found her very lethargic and just "not right". When picked up and rolled around, she would just kinda take it, instead of putting up a bit of a fight. She is also leaking urine. I watch her for 10 min and she urinated 3 times. This, however, does not happened all the time, but I have found her where the blanket underneath her is very wet and also her back end. She also seem to not really choose to use her back legs. But saying that, she can use them and moves them around easily. But compared to her brothers, she has such a fat body, that she might find it easier to shuffle around on her belly? But it does seem like she has less muzzle tone in her back legs. Could her being so overweight have anything to do with it?

She still eats and can move rather fast when mums comes back to get to the milk bar! However, she has not gained as much weight as the other the last 2 days. Only put on about 40g since yesterday. Nomally it would be 70-90g

We have been to the vet who also seems a little bit puzzled. He seems to think that she might have had some trauma to her back (mum could have stepped on her) and this would explain the leaking urine and possible to back end. However, I don't really think that the back end has changed dramatically... she has always kind of been a bit lazy with her back legs. But of course we notice it more, now that they are starting to get on their feet. She does not show any signs of pain when picked up and can easily move tail and roll around to her back and curl up.

But I'm no vet.. but just have a feeling that that might not be the problem and are now trying desperately to ask around as many places as possible to see if anyone have seen something similar?

Looking very much forward to hearing from anyone.. We are very worried. Sorry for the long post.

> We have been to the vet who also seems a little bit puzzled. He seems to think that she might have had some trauma to her back (mum could have stepped on her) and this would explain the leaking urine and possible to back end. However, I don't really think that the back end has changed dramatically... she has always kind of been a bit lazy with her back legs. But of course we notice it more, now that they are starting to get on their feet. She does not show any signs of pain when picked up and can easily move tail and roll around to her back and curl up

At this stage I'd be inclined to think your vet may be right. My dog was injured but showed no signs of a problem until I had him x-rayed and you can clearly see on the x-ray a green stick fracture in one hind leg. The change you are describing seems to be sudden and with no warning so that would also make me think the vet may be right. The question to ask might be how much damage has been done and will there be a good recovery over time?

Do keep us informed and best of luck with your girl.

Hi Saive

Congratulations on your litter.

Can't disagree with the thoughts that perhaps the little girl has suffered some form of trauma but two things other things spring to mind.

1.  Is it possible she has a urine infection?  When Mum's wash little girls it is relatively easy for them to wash a little germ or two into the urethra - being a little girl puppy the opening to the urethra is very close to the surface.  If she's 'fighting' an infection, she will be lethargic and appear 'under the weather'.  This could also account for the urine leakage. 

Obviously, you need to consult your vet but I would suggest that a dipstick test is done on her urine.  As pups are used to urinating by stimulation it should be a simple matter of gently rubbing her vulva with the end of a dipstick to gain a sample.  A course of antibiotics should sort out a urine infection.

Even if it's not a urine infection, it is still possible that she's got some form of low lying infection and a course of antibiotics would be prudent as they won't do any harm but may do some good.  Lethargic pups can often be due to infection.

2.  Given that she's a fatty, her body weight will be harder for her legs to support.  Before they get up on their feet they do shuffle around (as you know) but there is very little muscle tone to the back legs as they use their front legs to pull themselves along and the back legs follow.  Obviously once up on all fours they are building muscle strength every day, if they are fat puddings this can be more of a challenge for them and the backend can appear weak until the muscles have gained strength.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Chrissy

If it were not for the fact that you had been to the vet already I would have been inclined to suggest much as Chris has in her point 2, that at 2.5 weeks I wouldn't even be worrying that one is shuffling rather than trying to use the back legs to push along as pups do things at differing rates.  Along with her being the best feeder she is also likely to urinate the most too. If this were happening at 4 weeks I would begin to worry, but not at present.

However, as you are there, you can judge more and I always say to go on your instincts, your vet has not suggested normal growth and has had an examination of her, something we can't do here and thinks it may be the Dam who has damaged her, which indicates there may be a problem so I guess we have to go with that one for now, when are you to take her back to the vet? Until she grows it is not possible to know if this is a blip and quite normal or if there is any real damage.

I can't remember which poster it was and it was a while ago but someone had a pup much older than yours which did not use it's back legs, it did right itself by 8 weeks if I remember correctly, hopefully that poster will come along, so if it is still there at 4 weeks plus there is still hope of full recovery.

Keep us informed. I shall keep my fingers crossed for you that it is nothing serious.

I watch her for 10 min and she urinated 3 times. This, however, does not happened all the time, but I have found her where the blanket underneath her is very wet and also her back end.

Sounds like neurological issues. Both are the top signs of it. the stilted movement and the wetness.

I had a puppy last year who was " fine" till 4 weeks but I knew there was something not quite right. The wetness I spotted right away, she fed well but when she hit 5 or 6 weeks she would wobble, and she often look out the side of her eye, she didn't put on much weight after this point.   My mum was hell bent on saving her with the view of her keeping her so I let it go a couple weeks, I overuled and had her put to sleep at around 9 weeks old.

Incontinence alone in a puppy would be a nightmare.

Hi all,

thank you very much for your suggestions. I must admit that what you say Chrissy and also Carrington, is really what I felt my self. I wasn't too worried about her backlegs, because, as you nicely put it, shes a fat pudding! And had therefore kind off expected it coming with her being a bit slower to get on her feet. However, it is nice to hear from you and carrington, that also a weaker muzzle tone in backlegs is not too serious at this stage, but will of course keep an eye on it.

The extra urinating could as Carrington says, be causes by the huge amount of milk that goes in. I thought of that as well, but she has not done this kind of urinating until 2 days ago and that, with the combination of being a bit lethargic, was what made me worried. I had been away half a day and went in to check on them. As soon as I picked her up, I could feel the difference. Just limp and not much fight in her. I also thought that a infection was the cause and expected that on the way to the vets. However, he took her temperature and concluded from that, that there was no infection.. and then with combination of her lesser muzzle tone and limpness concluded the trauma in the back. And I can understand his point there.. however, there just has not been a dramastic change in those legs.. they have always been like that, and as I said, I'm not too worried about them.

So yes.. hmm.. on the positive note, then she has not gone worse today and actually seems a little bit brighter. Had a good bite and lick on my finger and I haven't seen any extreme urinating. But still not her usually bulldozer-self. I spoke to the vet again and he thinks I should give it a few days and then get back to them if her condition changes. If it is a trauma, then it is very positive that she moves around and uses her legs so well.

I might just be over worried and she just needs a little bit of time. But I really appreciate the suggestions from you all. I really do not want to loose her.

Saive

Think I may have been the one.  He was a big boy and didn't stand up properly until 5 weeks walking almost properly at 7 weeks.  He had a massive body and little legs, he went to the toilet etc normally though so definitely not the same.  He is now a happy, healthy 13 month old male who goes swimming in the sea nearly every day.

I would also try making the surface of the whelping box a bit uneven. If you can get some foam that resembles an orange box and cover it the puppy can get some traction and move around a bit better. It just may be a "swimmer" as you have a small litter and puppy is getting so much milk ,these pups just get so fat the fur on the knees wears off and moving is difficult as they get so heavy. That said with work they do get on their feet eventually ,I have known Vets that didn't recognise this problem and put the pups down . Anyway I hope with all the suggestions you can find a solution and your pup is OK.
Good Luck

Hello all,

Just wanted to say thank you for your suggestions and help. Always soo nice to hear others oppinion.

The pup is now 4 weeks old and there is absolutely nothing wrong with her now! :) Shes up on her legs and running around with the rest of the gang causing trouble. :)

So I never really came to conclusion on what was wrong with her.. she just suddenly sat up one day and was as good as gold.

Little devils.. they do make sure to keep you on your toes eh? :)

Kind regards

Saive

Ah thats great news, they are such a worry arent they?

thanks great news im so glad shes keeping u on your toes now :)