A quick question for you all, can you show under your ringcraft trainer? 

Can't find anything in the show regs pdf on the kc website so wanted to make sure.

Yes I'm sure you can, just not the breeder or anyone who's handled dog in last 12 months

>just not the breeder or anyone who's handled dog in last 12 months

Doesn't this mean that the ringcraft trainer has handled the dog in the last 12 months though

It's not a problem I've ever come across so have no idea.

> Doesn't this mean that the ringcraft trainer has handled the dog in the last 12 months though

Good point, never thought of this doh

'Handled' means competitively in a show ring........

so unless they showed the dog for the owner then yes of course they can show under the trainer.

Thanks everyone, you've confirmed what i thought.

Jill

Glad you have said that toolz as I have been told they mustn't have touched your dog

> I have been told they mustn't have touched your dog

In that case you couldn't show under the same judge in less than a year, definitely handled as in shown the dog.

I was always told that it meant "handled as in being touched and gone over" by someone in that last year, so I've never shown under anyone who has gone over my dog be it at ringcraft or even at a breed fun event.

> I was always told that it meant "handled as in being touched and gone over" by someone in that last year, so I've never shown under anyone who has gone over my dog be it at ringcraft or even at a breed fun event.

No it means 'handled'...ie the act of taking anothers dog into a show ring in place of it's owner.
Professional handlers are just that, someone who makes a living from handling.
If anyone who touched your dog was excluded from judging your dog then it would exclude so many people as to make it unworkable.
It was brought in, I believe, to avoid someone you had paid to handle your dog and perhaps 'owed' you a favour.

Lord help me if it meant the former as soooo many people came up and touched my winning puppy at Crufts that I couldn't show him for the rest of the year!!  I would have been screaming DONT touch the puppy

Tooolz is correct..

If it was the case of being touched or petted, then the majority of us would be exlcuded from showing under the majority of our breed owners friends and acquaintances and breed specialists , leaving us to go under all rounders.... We all go to shows, we all pet each others dogs, while sitting waiting/chatting.. yet we expect support from the same people when judging..

Handling for another person is completely different, and this is why the rule was originally brought in, to exclude 'favours' either bought, or owed in lieu...

> In that case you couldn't show under the same judge in less than a year, definitely handled as in shown the dog.

That's what I thought I thought it must be madness but didn't know otherwise

So does that also mean that if someone has groomed or helped with the grooming of a dog they can also then judge that dog?  I was under the impression that ANYONE who'd had the hands on to that extent shouldn't then judge it.  Or is it just morally, you shouldn't show under a "friend"  I can imagine that must be difficult as everyone gets to know one another at shows, even in a numerically large number breed

I just had a thought, a good friend of mine said he couldn't wait to get his hands on my puppy (when he was a puppy) I asked him if he wouldn't mind going over him. He said he couldn't as I was entered under him later on (a couple of months later).
don't know if this is relevant or not

Grooming would come under the banner of either paid, or favour.. so would be excluded morally, one would assume.. I certainly would not show under a judge in those circumstances..

But, you may also find that a groomer will decline a judging appt. in their 'catchment' area

> I just had a thought, a good friend of mine said he couldn't wait to get his hands on my puppy (when he was a puppy) I asked him if he wouldn't mind going over him. He said he couldn't as I was entered under him later on (a couple of months later).
> don't know if this is relevant or not

Most judges will not go over your dog if they are judging the breed that year, but not because it's a KC rule. There are a few reasons why they would rather not be seem to have their hands on your dog. One reasons is in case the dog gets put up when they judge and people claim it's a pre decided result. Sometimes it's better to not to let people go over you dogs until you enter under them, they might go over your dog and find a fault (such as a poor bite in a puppy) which is later corrected when they judge, this fault could stick in their mind and (if they were a rubbish judge) they might still place you down for it. 

Ahh, never thought of that... having a bit of a dim day lol

> So does that also mean that if someone has groomed or helped with the grooming of a dog

the rule is, handled, prepared for exhibition, boarded, or owned in the last 12 months.

> the rule is, handled, prepared for exhibition, boarded, or owned in the last 12 months.

'Handled' then, is somewhat ambiguous. Next to 'prepared for exhibition' it does seem to imply anyone who has had personal contact with the dog, and not handling in class. I wonder if it is worth getting some clarification from the KC? 'Handling' can mean anything from petting a dog, running one's hands over a dog, to taking it for a walk, to possibly looking after it for a few hours... not necessarily 'handling' in the sense of taking it into competition, since 'prepared for exhibition' would include having close knowledge of the individual dog as well.

'Handling' can mean anything from petting a dog, running one's hands over a dog, to taking it for a walk, to possibly looking after it for a few hours...

Not in the world of dog shows. That's a bit like saying BOB could mean either Best of Breed or a builder with the voice of Neil Morrisey. And if you used the word bitch you were throwing an insult and should be kennel clubbed for it. ;) It is all in its right context of the show world.

>  Not in the world of dog shows.

OK then..... so it should say 'handled for the purposes of exhibition' ? as it does say 'prepared for exhibition' as well. On the other hand, it does say boarded as well... so if you have to look after a show dog for, say 24 hrs, does that mean you can't touch it? 'Tis ambiguous! :)

> That's a bit like saying BOB could mean either Best of Breed or a builder with the voice of Neil Morrisey.

Thank you I am quite aware that BIS plus 'to' does not mean gravy! Here we are talking about certain interpretations of KC rules; not the blindingly obvious.

> so if you have to look after a show dog for, say 24 hrs, does that mean you can't touch it? 'Tis ambiguous! :-)
>

No if you looked after someones dog for 24 hours you couldn't judge it, so touching it is irrelevant.

> No if you looked after someones dog for 24 hours you couldn't judge it, so touching it is irrelevant.

Thanks :) It's not easy to find definitions of this, and I wouldn't know where else to ask without getting a condescending answer.

So going back to the original post, if one of the regular "judges" at ringcraft (committee member who goes over the dogs every week) is then a judge at a show you intend to enter, is that permissable as they have "handled for the purpose of exhibition", in other words they have assisted you in preparing the dog to be shown

I would guess that if you paid for the ringcraft class then that would mean you couldn't enter under that person for 12 months. If the classes were free, then you could.

'Handling' a dog doesn't mean touching it, it means being its handler, ie the person in charge of it.

Ring Craft and Training classes are exempt from the  KC Rule
of a Dog  having  been  Handled.

I know what "Handling" means in the show terms, but I can assure you that a large number of people who have shown for years certainly thought that the ruling meant handled as in being touched and not in a person show handling a dog.  Shows how I've been told incorrect information for over 20 years by even top winning show people LOL!

Gosh ...no wonder the entries for shows is falling if this idea is widespread.

I'm sure the KC have a glossary of terms for those unsure of the dog show venacular.

Just to repeat...to handle a dog in the dog showing sense.... means to exhibit it in the show ring.

OK then..... so it should say 'handled for the purposes of exhibition' ?

Just look in the rule book -it clearly says handled at a show. Ringcraft is not a show. F1 30(a)11.

Hi Yes there is nothing wrong in you entering your dog  under your ring craft instructor,
I have helped run a local ring craft class for over 30 years, and like most ring craft
trainers  around the Country  also judge  at championship level

I have heard of a case, where somebody held the lead of a dog whilst the owner was in the ring & this too can also mean handled( a bit extreme if you ask me).