As I was catching up with the TV coverage of Crufts yesterday, a thought popped into my head.  Is there something in the schedule that says you agree to allow your dog to be televised & commented on? 

whilst I won't get into the debate on the comments of a certain breed, I did think that if it were me having achieved BOB Crufts I would be devastated if someone had criticised it so publicly.  Hence my wondering if they have our permission to film?

Surely if you were that sensitive to criticism you wouldn't participate in the showing world at all ?? :)

Daisy

Surely if you were that sensitive to criticism you wouldn't participate in the showing world at all ?? 

I'll try & answer that question without it coming out incorrectly as obviously my OP has not been worded correctly.
Normally when you get a critique on your dog it is in the press but generally it is the dog showing world that buys that paper.  Also it is normally a critique by someone who has knowledge of the breed.  I also can restrict who's opinion of my dog if I wish, by only paying to go under judges who's opinion I am interested in.
When you are being televised & the commentator is not an expert on a breed, also lots of people were watching etc. etc.

All I was saying in my OP was is there something in the small print.  Someone on CD changed the title, My title was something along the lines of "is it in the small print"  I did not say permission to film & criticise at all!  I was just curious after watching the televised Crufts.  It was a thread asking the question out of curiosity nothing more complex than that :-D

ETA - I also said COMMENTED on not CRITICISED, again someone on CD has changed my wording & meaning IMHO

:) I understand what you are sayng, but would still contend that anyone who voluntarily shows at Crufts (particularly when certain issues are current) is giving permission by turning up :) :)

Daisy

I admit by attending you are literally asking to be judged, but I do wonder if the presenters comments were genuine, ie would she have felt those concerns if the current debate wasn't so "in your face" as it is at the moment.  I do feel it was slightly disrespectful to the judge who awarded BOB, and yes if it were my dog the high of winning BOB would certainly be tainted by a non-expert airing her derogatory comments on live TV.

> I do feel it was slightly disrespectful to the judge who awarded BOB

Sitting watching the groups in the arena the commentator made a point of saying that judges had been briefed by the Kennel Club to only place dogs that were 'fit for purpose, fit for life'. The GSD (imo) was neither of these, even the gsd supporters on here have admitted it was unsound. Unsound is not fit for purpose or life so the judge ignored the KC briefing. If the commentator was disrespectful I think that's the least the judge could expect, I would hope that the KC would take further action to prove that these are not just empty words they are spouting.

It's a weird one isn't it?  We are not allowed to film and show it on a public site of other people's dogs unless we ask in person their permission, wonder if the TV programme did this, I doubt it?

I am farily sure that there is something in the Crufts schedule which states that by entering we are giving permission for our dogs to be filmed/photographed  by  KC approved people/companies - somewhere along with the bit that says you can't film without KC permission for commercial purposes.

Anyone else read B Cuddy's blog coming out in favour of the GSD and saying that she can't understand why the KC is picking on the breed, as the problems are not detrimental to the dogs' health, but purely to the eye?  And why they appear to  be ignoring the Big issues in other breeds such as pugs and pekes (among others).  I would be willing to bet that my very sound pugs are a lot more fit, healthy, free from discomfort and fit for purpose than a whole lot of GSDs I see around with extreme roached backs and distinctly unsound rear ends and hind movement.  Has a photo on the blog of a peke with a fan clipped to it's cage and sitting on an ice pack - with something about it being terrible that such things are still happening - why on earth is keeping your dog comfy a bad thing?  Not all dogs are comfortable with or like the same things, some breeds like to be kept cooler, some (such as the whippet and Italian greyhound) need coats in cold weather.

dont think some of the judges are taking heed to "fit for purpose in my breed at crufts one dog was definitely
lame everybody commented and another rather suspect but the judge still placed them
WHATS THE POINT?

Gwen
surely having to sit your dog on ice packs with a fan is not normal? 

> surely having to sit your dog on ice packs with a fan is not normal?

I think taking any reasonable measure to make sure you dog is comfy in any given circumstance is good animal care.  It can get extremely hot in the halls at crufts.  In the summer I take chilled water, fans and cooling coats to shows for the pugs, it keeps them comfy if the temperature rises. I also always take chilled water and a fan on car journeys in warm weather, just in case of traffic jams or breakdwons. In the winter they have fleecy coats to keep them warm, simple common sense. 

surely having to sit your dog on ice packs with a fan is not normal?
The NEC isn't a normal environment.  You should see what I take for ME!  I've been there some years and been absolutely frozen, so I take layers and include a full length waxed coat to wear on top.  This year I was hot so stripped off to a t-shirt and thin jacket and looked like a pack-horse carrying all the rest! 
So taking care of any dog that I have with me involves being equally prepared, which is why our show bag is so huge and heavy - equipment for all eventualities.

I dont think anyone could be critisised for keeping a dog comfortable but perhaps getting it into that position to need such special care is more the issue.

> perhaps getting it into that position to need such special care is more the issue

that's my thoughts

Whilst I am most definitely in favour of a dog being fit for purpose and very healthy, NEC is not a natural environment. I, unfortunately had to take my Mother to the Medical Centre on Sunday and ended up having to have an early release pass. However, in tracking down the organisers to arrange the passes (took 1.45 mins in the end!!!) what I was pleased to hear was someone complaining that the air conditioning was affecting their eyes as they had contact lenses in, the answer: sorry but the Vets have insisted that the air conditioning be on for the sake of the dogs! About time that the dogs were considered.

Funny that you should mention eyes.  I don't wear specs or contact lenses but my eyes were so sore by 3.30pm that I was very grateful that I'd been driven and that I didn't have to drive home! :(

Hope that your Mother's feeling better AlisonGold. :)

> Not all dogs are comfortable with or like the same things, some breeds like to be kept cooler

particularly those that cannot do it properly and need help like the pugs and pekes, which is down to their extremely flat faces, which in my opinion is wrong, and cannot see how this is "fit for function".

Not quite on topic but relevant I think, I know of a dog shown and placed who has had both cruciates done. Now I have no problem with that but wonder if the KC may have. The dog was from overseas. I know of many show dogs in the UK whos carreer has been cut short as the KC refused permission to show after surgery. Should the overseas dogs have to apply for premission to show as well?
In my mind it was an injury and the dog has recovered very well but I feel it has to be the same rule for all.
Not sure if it comes under the "Fit for function" as the dog was obviously sound but not playing from the same level playing fields IMO.
Aileen

particularly those that cannot do it properly and need help like the pugs and pekes, which is down to their extremely flat faces, which in my opinion is wrong, and cannot see how this is "fit for function".

We have many breeds who due to the structure of the head are not so good in hot conditionns, others who due to coats thickness also are not good in the heat. I feel it only sensible to keep such dogs cool by whatever means available. No problem then with sitting on an ice block. Wether that breed should have the breathing problem in the first place is a wholley different matter. Depends on the cause.
Aileen

With regard to cruciates, there is nothing to say this is a hereditary problem so the KC will give permission to show if a dog has an operation to repair a cruciate.     Some breeds are a bit more prone to cruciate damage because of their build but that is all.

I have been led to believe that a few have been refused permission for this reason.
Aileen

Wasnt their someone on here recently whose dog was refused having such operation?  not fair really is it?

> particularly those that cannot do it properly and need help like the pugs and pekes, which is down to their extremely flat faces, which in my opinion is wrong, and cannot see how this is "fit for function".

I understand that you had a particulary difficult time with your Pug, but  to label the whole of the showing contingent of the breed not fit for function is wildly unfair.  I did not see any pugs at all on Saturday with an signs of discomfort or difficulty, just 200 or so happy, healthy dogs in excellent condition enjoying being what Pugs do best - being pugs, which means lap dogs and show offs.

Being fit for function has to take into consideration the individual breed's function.  Not all breeds have similar functions or needs.  I appreciate that you are aligned with the "dog showing is a bad thing" fraternity, but that is purely your point of view.  My dogs, and all of those I came into contact with on Saturday and Sunday were happy to be at the show - after all, a dog who is not happy showing will never make a show dog!  That being the case, and because they are there at our behest, it is our job to keep them as comfortable and happy as possible, if this means lying on a fleecy blanket or an ice pack depending on individual breed type, coat, etc., then so be it. 

Did you visit Crufts this year "Olive", or are you simply backing up B. Cuddy's campaign?  I did not have time to watch the Pekes in the ring, but several of them swept past me on the way to and from the ring, all were moving briskly (for a Peke), and the many I saw ringside sitting on laps or at the benches in cages looked perfectly happy, having had there individual needs and likes attended to by their owners.

This whole attitude about the compromised airways/not able to deal with heat thing about pugs has been magnified out of all porportion.  There were several pugs present from Europe, including warmer countries such as Italy and Malta, all are obviously perfectly able to breathe in their own homes at high temperatures.  One of our pugs went out to Malta about 7 years ago, another to Australia, as both became Champions and then retired to being adored pets they seem to have been able to breathe pretty well too in high temperatures.  Of course, their owners would have attended to their needs and seen to the fact they did not over heat (as any dog owner should).  Several Pugs (including one we bred) take part in agility - they are fast, enthusiastic, and perfectly able to breathe whilst tearing over obstacles and up and down ramps.

Yes Gwen I was there friday and saturday.
And yes at 8.30am I saw pugs panting, pugs with stenotic nares and some very over weight pugs too.

> and need help like the pugs

> down to their extremely flat faces

I don't have a pug but I watched the web streaming of coverage, there was a pug or pugs in the lineup of entrants for the presentation of prizes to the cani-x competitors.
so much for they are ALL unfit, cannot breathe etc, that/those ones evidently could.
Chris

I was there on Friday at 8.30 and my Norwegian Elkhound was panting too, it was warm and she was excited.

Was it not the Bitch CC winner in pugs who is a champion  and also an Agility dog?  Judge obviously was taking overall fitness into account there.

I was there from 7 am thursday on discover dogs and my schips were panting along with us humans who eventually asked the guys on the doors if they could leave them open a while longer when animals went out to exercise.

Reminded me of the year Crufts was postponed coz of foot and mouth the heat later in the yr was just about unbareable.

> Yes Gwen I was there friday and saturday.And yes at 8.30am I saw pugs panting, pugs with stenotic nares and some very over weight pugs too.

We arrived at about 8.15, and at 8.30  had the dogs out in the excercise/toilet area.  At that time of the morning things were still pretty quiet even though Puppy Dog judging had gone in, I would estimate that only about half (or even less) of the pugs had arrived.  The only panting I heard/saw was from the occasional over excited dog ( of lots of breeds including pugs) who were pulling on their leads too much - my Lollipop was one of them, however it only took a minute or two to settle her - panting is a natural dog function.  I can't say I noticed any very pinched nostrils as they are certainly not a desirable feature in the breed for very obvious reasons.  I do agree with you that there were some over weight pugs, fatter than I like to see them, but there were many more fit, healthy, well muscled pugs with great movement, very sound and very healthy.  It was not too hot at the pug ring as the air conditioning was blowing like mad and kept the pugs very comfortable.

Are you suggesting that you saw pugs distressed, in difficulty, or in anyway not able to fulfill their function of showing on the day?  I didn't see a single pug who was not happy to be there and perfectly able to move well and show.

As I have said before it is sad your own pug had such awful problems, but it is unfair to be implying that most other pugs have health issues.  At our regular pug walks I have the opportunity of viewing a whole collection of pugs from a wide variety of breeders - a very different thing from looking at the pugs at Crufts, it is very obvious which pugs are bred with quality and good health in mind, the pet bred and puppy farmed ones are a bit of a motley crew, loved by their owners but with a selection of faults and potential health issues.

I can only go on what is saw on the day and I have to say that I was around the pug ring from 8 am in the morning until 2.30, not showing as my pugs were too young to qualify, but there to watch and observe, and I have to say I did not see any pugs the were in distress or struggling. I spoke to quite a few pug people and freinds who were showing and helped them with their dogs and they were all happy and enjoying the day.
The air conditioning around the ring was working very well!!! It was very cold at times.

I have absolutely no experience or knowledge of pugs but I have seen at least one competing and holding their own in agility.  That's surely a great advertisement for good health.

I think that us with breeds who have been highlighted as having health problems have a responsibility that if we believe our dogs are fit for function, get out there and prove it (especially dogs bred for an active purpose), the public would definitely gain confidence if they saw dual purpose dogs doing well in the showring and perhaps some other suitable discipline, I plan to put my money where my mouth is and start some agility this year.

My pug can happily manage 3 hours walking a day through farmland and hills running around with the labradors.  She does not struggle or pant any more than the other dogs and is very fit and healthy.

It is inaccurate, not to mention irresponsible, to use derogatory sweeping statements about a breed.  Just because you have come across one unhealthy pug does not mean that they all are.  I was not at Crufts on toy day this year, but have been many times as well as to other shows throughout the year and i have very rarely seen a pug looking distressed at a show.  Only once or twice during the hot summer shows where irresponsible owners have left them out in the boiling sun, or are dragging them around the trade stands - stupid with any breed during the hottest parts of the day.

My basenji was pulling on her lead and panting on the way into crufts.  Is that because she is not fit for function??  Given they are one of the few truely natural breeds still in existence and she is very fit that would seem very unlikely.  Maybe those pugs you saw panting were just having the same reaction as my basenji - excited, desperate to meet everyone and happy to be there.

ETA:  Yes, the lovely pug who was featured on sundays Crufts coverage with her young handler is a champion in the show ring and agility ring.  And there are many more pugs across the world competing in agility and obedience.