There are many dog organisations including the Kennel Club, RSPCA, APDT, WSPA Dogs Trust who have come out to say that they do not reccomend Mister Milans methods, and there is much scientific (and anecdotal) evidence that reward based methods are more effective in permanently  changing a dogs behaviour.
Why then are people still chosing to use harsh methods to attempt to modify dogs behaviour? Most people would be completely outraged if they happened upon a person in the street stringing a dog up and fighting with it in the way seen on the programme. Why is it acceptable to treat a dog like this to train it?

Probably because some people only choose to see the end results not the process!!!!

This is going to be a long one sorry...
I think partly it is the way the show is edited and set up. When I watch the sequences of him dominating a dog on youtube out of the context of the show it makes me anxious just seeing it. The same clip seen within the main show; normally preceded by sections of film showing Milan smiling, talking about energy, petting his 'centre' dogs, carefully chosen music and the oft repeated 'this is Rover's last chance he will be put to sleep' are all carefully calculated and personally I do find it less horrible.
I believe that television when presented as 'factual', 'documentary' or 'real life' is a very powerful medium, the main thing I hear from Cesar fans when his methods are questioned is "Oh but he's helped so many dogs" and it is very hard to argue with this because they have 'seen it' and they have seen it presented in the context of a 'factual' or 'documentary' style program. Following from that it is fairly futile to argue that positive training methods could have been used as it always says in show that 'everything' else has been tried so in the mind of the fan that would include positive methods
.
The main thing I find frustrating is that some people who attempt to follow Cesar's method do so in the belief that once they have established themselves as the 'alpha' by 'dominating' their pet, the dog will then somehow become a good dog and start doing all the things like heel, sit, recall etc. No amount of dominating a dog is going to make it understand what you want it to do when you say 'Here boy!' the only thing that will do that is training.
An example of how some can get lost along the way is a conversation I had with my dad about a dog he had just got and its bad recall. He rang me to complain that the dog was no good at coming back when she was called and was very restless all the time even though they were walking her for about 3 1/2 hours a day. I told him to train her with treats for a little bit everyday so she would learn her name and he then said that he didn't have time to train her?! He had been reading Cesar's Way, in the end they cracked  the sausages out and the dog learnt her name, but I had a quick look at the book when I went down and I did notice that in his pie chart of what a dog should have there is Exercise, Discipline, Affection but no mention of Training at all.

> Why then are people still chosing to use harsh methods to attempt to modify dogs behaviour?

lazyness, lack of understanding of how dogs learn and the urge for a quick fix :(

I could never use anything other than reward based training now but it must be said that it requires comitment and lots of work to instill. An alpha roll can appear to produce imediate results if you ignore the damage it does to the dogs mental state of mind and ingore any negative association you have just taught the dog by pinning it to the floor :(

The best behaved dog I have ever owned is my current dog, a Mastiff, he is more eager to please himself than he is to please me but reward based trainig takes care of that and has conditioned him to feel that doing as I ask him IS pleaseing him ('cause he gets to eat cheese, LOL).

He walks like a dream on a lead yet he is the biggest and stongest dog I have ever had and is heavier and far stronger than me. No jabbing, alpha rolling or jerks on the lead ever used to produce that - only praise, cheese, patience & consistency. My previous dogs pulled like steam trains at a fraction of the size of Buster. I can see now how I have gone so wrong in the past, but there is nothing I can do to change the way past dogs were trained :( (I've never alpha rolled a dog, but used to think a jerk on the lead was how one taught good lead manners :( )

Allthough I don't like CMs harsh methods I do like being a leader to my dog. Good leaders don't use force and punishment, they lead by example using kindness &  patience, they know how to motivate thier 'followers' in positive ways to get the best from them and they know that trust is a very important part of any relationship so to get your dog to reach it's potential you need to build trust, that can't be done through bullying.

Apart from the fact reward based training is more effective and kinder for the dog - It's a fantastic feeling to have your dog obey you with a smile on his face :)

> I think partly it is the way the show is edited and set up.

I think maybe that is part, but Victoria Stilwell appears to produce quick results with rewards, I wish her show had the same following as CMs.

CM talks the talk so well, he is really convincing and maybe his approach appeals to peoples 'inner-caveman' (me human, you dog, you do as me want or I pin you to the floor). Defiantely agree with the comment I've seen Jeangenie make - CM is a great showman!

The madening thing is, it's obvious he does know about dogs and thier body language or he would not be able to handle some of the dogs (namely 2 mastiffs which he did not use harsh stuff on and a fearfull ex-laboratory dog). He chosses the quck route (harsh) where he can, not for the dogs, for the show :( :( :(

Well this is the exact question I asked 3 or 4 times on the locked thread, seems none of his supporters have an answer........ which really makes me wonder if these are people that simply LIKE to be bossy and controlling. I wonder what they would be like as a boss in an office for instance? Nice to work for or not?

I think though sometimes we need a bit of both.
I use reward based training but there are also times when a stern No is needed and is just as effective.

I draw the same parrallel with children I often hear mothers negotiating with small children for ages when sometimes I feel they could just say no rather tahn whine on for ages. I'm not wording this well. I coach behaviours in my daughters most times but sometimes I tell when a tell is needed.

My young puupy is a barker whenever a noise is heard. It can be a click of the boiler,  wind against the door, someone upstairs moving. Most times I distract her, ask for a recall and praise the good behaviour- job done. This morning after nine such recalls in ten minutes I am afriad I told her off with a stern quiet, moved her and closed the door to prevent her hearing as much.- Maybe stricter, maybe wrong but sometimes we need more than one approach.

Long reply - oops

ETA- I am a boss at work - Am I bossy? No but directional at times yes. I guess what people would think of me would depend on lots of perameters

>I use reward based training but there are also times when a stern No is needed and is just as effective.

A stern 'No' is fine occasionally, and in no way equates to the physical abuse perfomed by CM.

Would you punch your staff if they didn't do a job to your liking? Or would you find out why they didn't perfom the task satisfactorily and help them learn to improve, if necessary changing the method they needed to do it?

Fair point- I was equating the question to meaning always being positive and had read it two mins after removing my naughty barker from the front door with a stern telling off.

Have to say, I don't think he does understand body language (he's called a raised paw "dominance" before now, when it is well documented that it is in fact an appeasement gesture). But, if he does, then he's really really awful because this means he picks and chooses what he listens to - and ignores genuine, appeasement which is asking for less aggression from him.

I've never seen him talk about calming signals either, and someone mentioned he does this on the other thread. If he does know about them, why does he not heed them ...  I don't think he can see them, after all. Or, he notices when it suits - either way is awful.

Lindsay
x

> I don't think he does understand body language (he's called a raised paw "dominance" before now, when it is well documented that it is in fact an appeasement gesture). But, if he does, then he's really really awful because this means he picks and chooses what he listens to - and ignores genuine, appeasement which is asking for less aggression from him.
>

Well said!

Do not watch if offended by bad language

Charlie Murphy

MarianneB

I should probably start by saying I'm NOT actually a CM supporter.  I have watched in the past but only a few programmes here and there. In truth I've probably read more about him than seen him in action.  There is obviously much to dislike about his methods but, as is often the case, there are nuggets of truth and commonsense in the programmes too - small nuggets maybe :). 

> Well this is the exact question I asked 3 or 4 times on the locked thread, seems none of his supporters have an answer........ which really makes me wonder if these are people that simply LIKE to be bossy and controlling. I wonder what they would be like as a boss in an office for instance? Nice to work for or not?

The reason that I've replied to your post is that I do take exception to your condemnation of his supporters and your suppositions about their work attitudes.  I'm not sure why you'd label them 'bossy and controlling' and I really cannot see how you've made that connection?

Whilst you may not agree with their point of view you must at least allow them to have one and to express it in any way they see fit.  Reasoned debate is very important and it benefits hugely from both sides being given equal airtime.  However, you cannot bully people into responding and I can see why some CM supporters may be unwilling to enter the fray.  Marianne, your argument is clear, well thought out, and has been supported by great articles and links.  You stand a very good chance of informing or converting a few people.  Don't spoil it now by being rude to them!!

Edited to add:  I think it's important to allow time for 'old school' thinking (and training) to change.  Whilst it may not happen fast enough there does seem to be plenty of evidence that change is coming.  Victoria Stilwell may be a case in point (?), as are the growing numbers of people now speaking up against CM and his ilk.  However we aren't going to change peoples minds by simply saying CM is wrong - we have to continually point toward better examples and show people our well trained (reward-trained) dogs :)

>Marianne, your argument is clear, well thought out, and has been supported by great articles and links.  You stand a very good chance of informing or converting a few people.  Don't spoil it now by being rude to them!!

I do wish his supporters would answer the question that Marianne has asked several times, because I'd like to know the answer too.

Perhaps his supporters are staying quiet because they know that whatever they say it will be followed by pages of verbal abuse. I would have thought that this topic had been done to death on the previous board that is now closed.

Nobody's been verbally abused at all - people have asked questions and stated different viewpoints and interpretations of what's shown on TV, but that's what a discussion is all about. Disagreement isn't abuse. It's only by putting forward alternative viewpoints can education (on all sides ;-)) occur.

> I've never seen him talk about calming signals either, and someone mentioned he does this on the other thread. If he does know about them, why does he not heed them ... 

I've seen a show where he helped a very, very fearfull dog that had previously been kept in a cage for years as a laboratory testing subject :( There was no doubt CM was fantastic with her, body language was the key, showing her he meant no harm etc..
He could not have done that if he didn't know about 'dog language', because many things that calm a dog/take 'pressure' of a frightened dog are opposite or what we as humans would naturally do.

IMO he chooses not to use these methods all the time, in favour of the harsh methods, simply from a show point of view, which as I've said before, makes him even worse. He can use the soft approach, he CHOOSES not to :( :( :(

I really feel for people who have mentioned they had gone to see him as a night out- not out of malice or as a wish to support his training methods but purely as a night where they got to sit among other doggy people and maybe get a bit of relaxation for a few hours. I do feel this and the other thread re Caesar are a bit divisive and amost goading to a point.

Points have been made by people with varying viewpoints and like others I do not see what can be added by this thread.

Just to add to my above post.
I think the fact that CM is good at reading body language shows him which dogs he can get away with bullying :( Very occasionally he'll get it wrong and get bitten but most of the time he can figure out what dogs he can get away with physically forcing to do things.

There is a differnece in the level of 'harshness' to his shows that does not equal the dogs 'problem'. What I mean is that if he increased his harshness with the level of the dogs problem, Nazir (the Boerboel) should have had the harshest treament ever, but it must have been one of the most softest 'rehabilitations', that took him months to do.

CM knows dogs but he also knows people and sadly the people that have allowed thier dogs to become so poorly trained/adjusted in the first place want to see that they can get results in an instant, so I think he is all about selling himself :(

> Points have been made by people with varying viewpoints and like others I do not see what can be added by this thread.

There is plenty that can be added :)

So far there has been lots of us giving our reasons why we do not like CMS methods. The thread could be balanced out with people expressing why they think CMs methods are the way to go.
Disagreeing with a view point is not bullying or being abusive, it's just a debate. If the debate has input from both sides, you never know, we all may learn to see things a bit differenlty or gain some further understanding.

> amost goading to a point.
>

Couldn't agree more.

I also feel for those who went for a night out, to meet likeminded dog people and to watch a show, it does not make them ogres, or that they actively support cruel training methods.

Have to reiterate again that I have never watched his TV programmes or his training methods - so cannot comment on that, but can comment on training having been in dogs a long time.    I have watched all the various training methods that have been used from time to time, all the different leads/collars that have been brought onto the market, to help control 'wayward' dogs, how training ideas have changed, then have moved on.  I suppose that we are learning all the time and we will have to review all methods periodically.

I do think that each dog has to be assessed individually by its owner and a training method chosen that will suit that particular dog, they are all different, different fear levels, different response levels, different sizes, what suits one does not necessarily suit another.   It is a case of watching and assessing.

And everyone is entitled to their own point of view as in the TOS albeit it may differ from others, in other words maybe we can all learn from each other; isn't that is what a Forum is about? 

>Why is it acceptable to treat a dog like this to train it?

Getting back to the question in the opening post of this thread!

We know that we can teach children the alphabet and their multiplication tables by repetitively banging a table and hitting their knuckles when they make a mistake, but would we classify a programme that promoted this method (when we know there are methods of teaching the same without using fear and pain) as 'entertainment'?

CM's punitive methods are condemned by many veterinary and welfare organisations internationally; the broadcasting of these methods has set back the concept of humane training by 40 or 50 years.

Totally agree with you Mastifflover, I have been using reward base training on my Bullys since owning them and i find it works so well , (bullys being greedy little gits) lol,
food is the best training method ever for my 2, I find my older bully 4 yrs old will NOT leave my side now if she knows iv got chicken or treats the smellier the better then theirs nothing that will distraced her away from me,

my younger bully is a little more challenging and is not quite up to his mums level yet , but i remember Ellie being the same as him at his age so im sure with a bit more work he will be just as good as his mum :-)

I Dont like CM as he kicks his dogs and i feel this is just wrong , surly if you kick your dog he will just fear you in the future and i dont ever want my dogs to feel fearful of me,

Disagreement isn't abuse.

Exactly -and in this case I would call it passion. Those of us who disagree with CM are passionate about it because we care so much about the dogs. It really upsets me to see the dogs with him on TV, see how terrified some are. I remember watching an episode with my kids and they were nearly in tears, they could tell how wrong it was without me even needing to point it out.

How can anyone trust a trainer who uses electric shock collars? I don't get it and I so much want people to understand how there are far, far NICER ways of training a dog. And I say this BECAUSE I have tried both extremes and so I feel can have an informed opinion based on experience of both sides -punishment and enforced based training AND clicker training (plus all sorts in between!), and can tell the difference in my own dogs. Even in my 10 year old, who was trained in an old fashioned way with choke chains and punishment and force I can STILL tell the difference, even though she has not been treated like that for many years now. She's very obedient indeed, but she will never be as carefree and happy as her daughter who was clicker trained from day one. Their entire outlook on life is different. And I think that is so sad.

> And I say this BECAUSE I have tried both extremes and so I feel can have an informed opinion based on experience of both sides -punishment and enforced based training AND clicker training (plus all sorts in between!),

I echo this - when I first trained dogs in the early 80's it was all still choke chains, strangling, jerking, and punishment. I think those who have had experience of that, then moved on and learned about the more modern methods and seen for themselves the differences are the most outspoken about CM because we know NOW how that affects dogs, and because we were there, did that, wore the T-shirt and would be thoroughly ashamed of using any methods like that nowadays. CM drags dog training back 30 years!

PS: It is known that CM takes the dog away from the owner and works with it on his own for a while - he insists on this. It is thought among enlightened trainers that may use an e-collar during this time, hence the dog's compliance afterwards when he uses his trademark Tssst! Pre-conditioning.... it's not magic.... nobody else I know has managed to get an instant behaviour out of a dog just from a Tsssst. But anyone could, if a dog had been preconditioned to get a shock whenever it heard that noise.

Some really good posts here,couldn't agree more with pookin,mastifflover,marrianeB and Ms Temeraire(and Charlie Murphy is hilarious and so perceptive-thanks for that link!).CM might be a multi millionaire but he is really missing out on a lot in particular the relationship you can have with your dog if you use positive methods-and like other posters on here I remember the bad old days of choke chains,force retrieving and other abusive methods and know the harm they can do.

> I remember watching an episode with my kids and they were nearly in tears,

As I was when I saw the GSD demonstration, and how he just looked like a broken shell of a dog.  Genuinely upset me.  To see such a proud breed beaten and whimpering was awful to me.

I've seen a show where he helped a very, very fearfull dog that had previously been kept in a cage for years as a laboratory testing subject  There was no doubt CM was fantastic with her, body language was the key, showing her he meant no harm etc..
He could not have done that if he didn't know about 'dog language', because many things that calm a dog/take 'pressure' of a frightened dog are opposite or what we as humans would naturally do.

IMO he chooses not to use these methods all the time, in favour of the harsh methods, simply from a show point of view, which as I've said before, makes him even worse. He can use the soft approach, he CHOOSES not to  

I saw that episode and I really don't agree that he was fantastic with her.  I have kids that come to class that would have known that dog was terrified, even my Dad who is the worlds worst at seeing body language in any species would have known she was afraid and not to push her.  He was working out the very basics of very obvious body language there.  He still used a slip collar or prong collar as the main piece of equipment, and he still said at times that she was relaxed and calm submissive when she was anything but, he also put pressure on where there shouldn't have been.

If he really did understand body language so well there was so much more he should have done with that poor dog before shoving a lead on her and taking her out.  When a dog is that scared there is much more ground work needs doing before taking them out and being their 'leader', there were hundreds of things I would have and have done differently with a dog like that which get dogs to a place where they can be excited about going out rather than fearing it and often at best when pushed to far end up enduring it, yes it takes time but it ends up changing the dogs emotional response to things not just what they physically do.

I really don't think he understands body language very well at all, certainly not beyond the vey obvious stuff and dogs displaying subtle body language on him is entirely lost.  I don't think he chooses which to use the harsh methods on or not, I've never not seen him use some klind of compulsion that made something punishing to the dog and if a dog uses any kind of aggression because of their fear then he uses more obvious bullying tactics.  The bullying tactics he uses on other dogs aren't quite as obvious unless people have a very clear understanding of body language, both human and canine.

I also find it gut wrenching seeing amazing dogs with fears and problems ending up just shut down shells too - it's brought me to tears several times.

Has this thread not ran its course yet ?

Some people agree with CM...some people don't.

:)

I think there is nothing wrong with discussing CM - that is what this and other forums are for :)

It's not harming anyone.

Lindsay
x

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with him just that i think its ran its course...nothing really new is being discussed thats all ...in my opinion :)

I really don't think he understands body language very well at all, certainly not beyond the vey obvious stuff and dogs displaying subtle body language on him is entirely lost. .....The bullying tactics he uses on other dogs aren't quite as obvious unless people have a very clear understanding of body language, both human and canine.

Yes. I often use the analogy of an equine vet and experienced horse person being able to see problems with a horse which, when being run up and down, shows up several problems. Experienced, educated people such as the 2 mentioned will at once see the problem. Most other people - some horse riders, others who like animals but have nothing to do with horses - would not see anything wrong and would assume the horse was totally fine.

It's the same with CM - educated people can see terrible, sad problem with what he does which are truly upsetting and distressing to watch.
Others literally cannot see any problem and, I believe, genuinely believe he is "helping" and on a mission to "save" pet dogs.

I also find it gut wrenching seeing amazing dogs with fears and problems ending up just shut down shells too - it's brought me to tears several times.

Yes .... I just don't watch him any more. It upsets me for a long time :(
I particularly loathe the fact that he conditions the dogs via aversives to the "kick" or "psst" as any person well versed in training can tell, but it seems it's not mentioned that he does this. That's why people who don't realise this say "but he doesn't hurt" "it's not a real kick" and "the dog isn't being hurt, it's just surprise" .

Lindsay
x

> and he still said at times that she was relaxed and calm submissive when she was anything but

If he were to actually say "this dog is scared to death and I am making things worse" his followers would soon realise he is not the god he makes himself out to be. The problem is he is such a showman, most of what we see him do and especially what we hear him say, is for the benefit of the viewers not because he thinks its the best way for the dog or that he thinks that is whats happening.

His approach with that dog may not have been as slow as it should have been, but it was a long way away from alpha rolls and the usual physical bullying and intimidation with prolonged eye-contact, the worse thing he did was to take things too quickly and se the prong collar that the owners had. You can not get any results from a fearfull dog if you do not know how to handle one.

I still think CM chooses to use bullying tactics while knowing there is a better way, all for the show and the appearence of getting the dog sorted quickly, which again, makes him much worse than a person that really believes there is only his way to do things :(
If he were to do things slowly, he would not have an 'edge' on any other trainer, the thing that sells him is the 'quick fix', people have to be convinced that this is the best thing for thier dog, CM says what is needed for people to believe him, but I don't believe he believes all he spouts himself.

We hear of people havng to have thier dog PTS after following CMs methods because the dog has turned on them - why don't they turn on CM - because he knows how for he can get away with pushing them, one must know about dogs to be able to do this. I am in NO WAY condoning wht CM does, just trying to get accross why I think he is bully for the sake of stardom, yet knows how to do things differently :( :(

The only point I would add is that although the show may be short and it looks to us as if it's quick there are often flashes stating one month later etc when the dog has been worked with away from the cameras so maybe we don't always know the full story.

Ok, so being a non-experienced dog owner, I watched CM avidly before we got Jazz. I was totally in awe of him and adament that I would use those tactics when "correcting". Now I am not an idiot, and knew that training would also play a very important part in shaping my (then) future dogs behaviour. The E,D,A regime did also seem to make sense in our eyes as a bored dog is not a happy dog.

Once we got Jazz, we did a lot of positive reinforcement with him with treats etc and by 4 months we had a lovely recall, as well as a not to shabby sit stay. But I am also ashamed to admit that when displaying behaviour that we understood to be dominance, my OH did use the alpha roll. I didn't really like it, but thought it was something we *should* do in order to have a well trained dog. I have tried to use tssssss but Jazz just looked at me like I was a fruitloop - he didn't get what I wanted him to stop doing.

It is only through dog forums such as these and speaking to other doggy people that we have learnt our mistakes.

Unless this is discussed time and time again people like me wont pick up these threads.

>
> PS: It is known that CM takes the dog away from the owner and works with it on his own for a while - he insists on this. It is thought among enlightened trainers that may use an e-collar during this time, hence the dog's compliance afterwards when he uses his trademark Tssst!

That is so scary and upsetting,after all if he can do some of those awful things on tv,what on earth does he do when he's on his own with the dog,it doesn't bear thinking about.And I feel so sorry for the owners who blindly trust him with their beloved dogs,believing that he must know what he is doing and have no idea of the harm thats being done.

> Unless this is discussed time and time again people like me wont pick up these threads.

I think that is a fair comment.  People do come on sites like CD to learn.

> Unless this is discussed time and time again people like me wont pick up these threads.

Thank you so much for that :) It can seem a thankless task trying to put across another point of view at times.

It is only through dog forums such as these and speaking to other doggy people that we have learnt our mistakes.

Unless this is discussed time and time again people like me wont pick up these threads.

Well said and thanks for putting it across so very well :)

Lindsay
x