hi ive had enquiries about someone using my dog at stud. on talking to the owner i obvoiusly asked her questions about the bitch etc, then asked her if she had had any previous litters which she hadnt,  then asked her her age, i was horrified to hear that she was 7 and she wanted to mate her. I know a bitch can have litters up to age of 8 but, am i right in thinking that her chances of concieving are reduced drastically as she gets older. i feel that this wouldnt be a good thing for the bitch being so old and being her first litter.  her vet told her it would be ok to give her a ;itter.  can anyone advise me on this as i dont want the bitch to be in any danger etc. if she was mated.

At that age, a first litter is much more likely to result in a c-section than for a younger bitch or one that has had pups before.

You also have to consider that her maternal instincts may be less likely to come into play after so long.

Why would anyone wait until Veteran age to start breeding, a last litter from a really fit bitch that had good breeding history of no problems and being a good mother is something else, but not a first litter.

I won't breed from proven bitches at this age.  I certainly wouldn't mate a bitch that old for the first time.  Knowing that the likelihood of a difficult time is pretty much guaranteed.

I wouldn't be a part of it, and wouldn't allow my dog to be used.  We're all different in this respect.  I turn down people that approach me when I consider a bitch to be far too small for breeding.  Yet another breeder told me that she says yes, as they will only go elsewhere.  I prefer that they go elsewhere.  The stud fee doesn't come into it. 

Even though the vet doesn't have a problem with it, I don't know many vets that are breeders.  In all fairness, they only get to see a pregnant bitch when she is having problems giving birth. 

This sounds a lot like to story in the press (Daily Mail?) not long ago, the woman breeding from her 7yr old bitch for the first time, with her vet allegedly saying it would be OK. I wonder if that has influenced this owner?

I certainly like my bitches to have finished breeding by 7, and the oldest I have had one whelp was 7 years 1 month. 

This is a breed that is fit and active into the teens, and usually easy whelping.

> and the oldest I have had one whelp was 7 years 1 month. 
>
>

Yes Barbara, but you know what you're doing!!  :-)  (Just a tad!)

And I don't think it would have been a maiden bitch.  :-)

Oh yes that was her last litter, they should be having their first litter before five in our breed. 

I meant their breeding life should be finishing by 7 not starting.

jumping into the pan here i expect, but my first kc litter was from a 7 year old, perfectly fit and healthy, we had a perfect pegnancy etc, and all was fine, she reared 6 fantastic puppies. while i wouldnt advise it to anyone now, i did have the descision myself, and it wasnt an easy one!  before then the bitch in question was too manic, then all of a sudden she matured and was a lovely mum, shes now almost 16 and still going strong!

exception to the rule?    :-)

i dont think i would ever chance the same again - she was an exceptional dog! so yes, id say some exceptions have to be given, but not something i would ever recommend anyone doing! the worry and stress is immense!

can anyone advise me on this as i dont want the bitch to be in any danger etc. if she was mated

The trouble is as far as this potential breeder is concerned her vet has given her the ok, so going down the route of:

'It could well be a danger to the bitch healthwise also that she may not whelp as well or take to motherhood' will probably go over her head, after all the 'expert' on dog health has spoken. :-) It may be hard to convince her otherwise.

Many vets really are a nightmare when it comes to breeding, they see a dog once or twice a year for a quick check up over probably 10 mins tops, along with their inoculations don't ask people who show an interest in breeding to have eyes, hips or breed relevant health tests only if that person asks! :-( And think they are experts on what makes a dog good breeding stock **rolleyes, rolleyes**  they usually don't know what the breed standard is, often not even what the breed is and how can they possibly know the full temperament of a dog, after standing on a vet table for 10 mins, **shrugging my shoulders here** :-) 

A vet is the last person to ever be asked is my dog ok to breed from? Yet we constantly here it don't we?

All you can do is say as the stud dog owner you and many other breeders you know would not mate a maiden bitch at 7 years old. Maiden being the problem here.

I do wonder why so late for a first litter though and am wondering if perhaps it is just a case of their dog is possibly half way through her life and they want another one just like her.......  that old chestnut. In which case perhaps you could just point them in the direction of a good breeder for a nice pup. :-)

excellent post

I totally agree about most vets at not being to clued up on breeding the last litter I had I took my bitch just before whelp for a check up and mentioned that in my breed the usually whelp around 59 th day and was told to get that notion out my head she would be 65 days, sure enough though she whelped 59 and a half days :D
When it comes to breeding I much prefer to seek the knowledge of the more experienced breeders in our breed.

ok thanks every one whos replied my mind is made up and i will try and persuade the lady not to breed her.

I would doubt that the vet has actually said she'd be ok at 7.  know ones round here are very pro-spaying anti breeding.  I think its more likely she read about that silly women letting her old bitch have pups and decided herself.I suspect if you said you would need to talk to the vet before deciding you will find the vet is not in agreement.

> jumping into the pan here i expect, but my first kc litter was from a 7 year old, perfectly fit and healthy, we had a perfect pegnancy etc, and all was fine, she reared 6 fantastic puppies. while i wouldnt advise it to anyone now, i did have the descision myself, and it wasnt an easy one!  before then the bitch in question was too manic, then all of a sudden she matured and was a lovely mum, shes now almost 16 and still going strong!

Well I too have had a litter from a maiden bitch of 6 years & 8 months. My breed is a long lived breed & I would have lost my line, the bitch was extreamly fit. She had 5 healthy pups & shelled them like peas & was an excellent mother(but my breed usually is).
I would have to assess each idividual case for a whole range of reasons but i wouldn't normally leave it as late as 7.

> was told to get that notion out my head she would be 65 days,

 

OMG!  My breed always whelps early - very often by a whole week, with no problems at all.  If I had a bitch go 65 days I would be having a seizure!   ;-)

I realise that some breeds don't go early, but mine do, and I am very much aware of the fact.  It's why everything is ready a week early.

Did you go back and tell your vet - on day 59 - I told you so?  :-)  :-)

I got my cousin to tell him when she saw him the day after with a rescue dog she took in,, i was so tempted to do the ner ner ne ner ner thing ;D
in all serious though he was really quite rude about it and was of the impression breeders know diddly squat, every dog i take in to see him if they're male its you should get him neutered how exactly do they intend to stay in a job if no one bred their animals?? luckily i have a lovely lady vet too who always compliments how lovely and well looked after my dogs are.

Isn't there something about the pelvis becoming more fixed/less flexible beyond a certain age where a bitch has not had a litter causing problems if she were to be bred beyond that age?

I seem to recall this from somewhere....it may be a complete figment of my imagination though!

I had a lady ring me up last year about using my boy at stud. 1st thing I asked for was the girls details & asked why she thought my boy would suit her girl. She replied...'Well, I've rung around & no-one else will let me use their dog' She then went on to say that her girl was 6 years old. I asked if she'd previously had a Litter & she said....(wait for it.......) 'No, she hasn't had a Litter previously & I'm not sure when her season is due, as they didn't give me that information when I got her from the Rescue Centre'!!! :O I was totally speechless, so much in fact, I just slammed the phone down. Since then I've thought of a few choice words I'd like to have said....:(

I was alway in the understanding that all dogs got spayed or snipped if they went through rescue centers for re- homing, apparently not

> I was alway in the understanding that all dogs got spayed or snipped if they went through rescue centers for re- homing,

Some rescues can't afford the cost and rely on the owners being responsible.

> Isn't there something about the pelvis becoming more fixed/less flexible beyond a certain age where a bitch has not had a litter causing problems if she were to be bred beyond that age?
>

It is certainly the reason I won't breed beyond a certain age.  I have a breed that is sexually mature very early, and I would never breed from one at 3 years for the first time.  I'm not saying that is the case with a breed that develops slowly, but it is certainly my observation in my own breed. 

> I had a lady ring me up last year about using my boy at stud. 1st thing I asked for was the girls details & asked why she thought my boy would suit her girl. She replied...'Well, I've rung around & no-one else will let me use their dog' She then went on to say that her girl was 6 years old. I asked if she'd previously had a Litter & she said....(wait for it.......) 'No, she hasn't had a Litter previously & I'm not sure when her season is due, as they didn't give me that information when I got her from the Rescue Centre'!!! :O I was totally speechless, so much in fact, I just slammed the phone down. Since then I've thought of a few choice words I'd like to have said....:-(

Same here, someone rang me with a small  bitch, they rang asking to use my boy as they thought he'd "put some height in to the puppies". When I asked the reg name so I could do my research on her before I gave her an answer she says she wasn't registered, but the rescue centre said she was a pure GSD :rolleyes: