This post is fairly urgent due to the pups requiring docking in a couple of days! Some of you may remember my despairng post a few weeks ago re: the neighbouring farms ecs bitch being left to mate with another friends ecs dog...no health tests, no checking out of pedigrees etc etc. Well the pups that were due at Christmas (I know...just read the old post!) arrived last night & they rang me at 2am to say the bitch given birth on the kitchen floor...they had no idea it was imminant...what should they do!!!!!
Now both parents are blue roan cockers. The dam was out of an orange & white bitch x blue roan dog. They have no idea what colour the sires parents are. All 8 pups are a very very distinctive black & white. No hint of roan to be seen. What they need to know (I couldn't help them on this) is whether its genetically possible for 2 BR parents to produce a B&W litter. Doubt is creeping in as there is a B&W collie and a B&W pjrt on the farm as well....get the picture!!!
If they are pure ecs then they will get them docked. Any ideas anyone. believe me its V.hard to tell from looking at them!

My parents had a very dark blue roan cocker who was completely black and white as a puppy. Just because there's no roan markings showing yet doesn't mean they won't occur.

If they're not sure of true parentage it's probably best if they don't dock them - undocked cockers sell very well and as they're not going to be registered I don't suppose it'll make a lot of difference to their customer market.

HTH,

Fiona
x x x

I agree with Fiona, My cocker was liver and white when we first got him as a pup , he was white with a few liver spots and his roan markings came out as he grew older, if you saw photo of him when he was tiny you wouldn't think it is the same dog at all!! I'm going to stay quiet on the docking issue as I have my own views on it and feel it depends on whether they will go to working homes or not - Not like me to keep my views to myself :D Julie:)

Large Munsterlanders come out black & white, and the ticking comes through later :-)

Sam

Roan puppies often have no signs of roaning when they are new born:(

The choice for docking is there whether they think they are pure cocker or not. As you know - Cockers are only docked because of the risks due to working. These puppies will only be any good(don't mean that to sound awful) as pets so I don't think docking should be an issue for them. Because of the uncertainty around these pups - my view would be to leave them be. I believe - but could be wrong - that two roans could produce B & W but because you can't tell if they are roan or B & W and because of the other dogs they have you cannot be sure either way. Cocker heads tend to be quite distinctive if that helps at all. Nicely domes and square jawed. I would have thought that if the PJRT or Collie were to blame the faces would be slightly pointy - if that makes sense.

Sorry can't be of any more help

Pam n the boys

It is genetically possible for two blue roan Cockers to produce black & white puppies if both carry the recessive gene for black & white - however, in this case, you would only expect a quarter of the pups to be black & white (at the most), not all the pups. Usually it is possible to detect roan markings in new born pups (specially if you have a close look at the chest & tummy) although very light blue roans can take a while for the markings to be clearly visible. Blue pups tend to have totally black foot pads whereas black & whites have pink pads with some black developing as the pups grow - very light blue pups often have black & pink pads which gradually go totally black as time goes by.

Jane

Thanks everyone for the help...I have had another look & think they are ecs pups....will go roan later judging by their pads. They are going ahead & docking...even if the jrt is the dad they will still dock as , surprisingly, its a very popular rough shooters dog round these parts (spaniel x jrt). Personally I am appalled by the whole issue of how these pups were even allowed to be conceived in the 1st place, but what is done is done & I am now just trying to point them in vaguely the right direction!

Hi sam, I think you must have the patience of a blooming saint - 2 am - I ask you. Didn't they wonder why the bitch was scratching and panting - if she had whelped by 2 am she must have been behaving oddly during the evening surely? Infuriating that these people have a self whelping bitch ( lucky for the bitch) and a pile of live puppies and those on this board who care so much for their dogs and do all the right things have disasters. GRRRRRR. Dont get me wrong I am glad the bitch and pups are ok.

I know WL...makes me boil too (that was the title of my original post I believe)
Apparently the bitch took off all afternoon & they eventually found her up the lane in the straw barn, 4 hours later, nest-making...they had no idea what was about to happen & went out for the evening.....came home to find 3 pups infront of the Aga!!!!!!
I had my own litter last weekend & have spent every waking moment watching them, checking them, sleeping on the camp bed with them to make sure none get squashed etc etc....It infuriates me how ignorant people can be...but they are neighbours/friends & I feel for the pups sake I should offer what help I can. She came around this morning & borrowed Book of the Bitch (A bit late!) and took some feeders & Lactol as one pup looking poor today. Ho Hum!

well as an update to this story.....they have lost 2 of the pups and due to (still!) uncertain parentage, the vet decided he wouldn't dock:(
I have given them (neighbours) Lactol & feeders but they haven't a clue still. The bitch has litle milk and every moment she can, she deserts the pups & runs off to be with the other farm dogs & is disinterested in her pups. The owners are getting to the stage where they can't be doing with hand rearing and its suddenly dawned on them why I was so disapproving in the 1st place!!!
I would like to say "I told you so" but that would be terribly unfair on the pups, poor little things.

Sam

You can picture me here shaking my head in disbelief. Those poor puppies. Do the survivors have any realistic chance of survival?

If the owners can't be bothered to do anymore as it is too much hard work - is there a rescue that could take them instead? I just feel so much for them. I can't help practically - but I would be willing to help financially if that would help. Not to the current owners though, but to a suitable rescue home.

Please feel free to mail me privately.

Pam n the boys

Sam, same here, I will willingly take them and bottle rear them if it can be arranged

Ditto Sam. Don't know how they could be got up here but Flea is phantoming like mad so she'd love to mother and might even come in to milk. I'd quite enjoy hand feeding whether she did or not.

They have rung me again for the umpteenth time tonight....she is still bottle feeding them every 4 hours & says they seem ok. They have a 9 month old baby & he has had to go up to the farm every day to Granny since pups born as Liz realises she cannot manage the pups AND the baby!!!
I have now lent them an electric heat pad so hopefully the pups have a better chance. Will keep you posted.

Hi sam, any more news on how they're getting on?
:)

Hope all is well with the remaining puppies, how many are there now? I can hardly believe that this mating was actually planned and they couldn't even be bothered to find out anything about how to look after her - with 8 pups she must have been huge when she was due . Perhaps you should present them with a bill for "services rendered" when they have ceased asking for your help!!!I know you are giving it gladly for the sake of the mum and pups but you really must feel like strngling them.

Hope all is well with the remaining puppies, how many are there now? I can hardly believe that this mating was actually planned and they couldn't even be bothered to find out anything about how to look after her - with 8 pups she must have been huge when she was due . Perhaps you should present them with a bill for "services rendered" when they have ceased asking for your help!!!I know you are giving it gladly for the sake of the mum and pups but you really must feel like strangling them.

Hi Sam,

I am glad you were there to help the bitch at least but that is awful what they have done to their bitch and also expecting you to run back and forth. It is beyond me.

It is hard to believe that some people don't even have the slightest bit of common sense but it appears not with some of the stories we hear. I personally think the people should be ashamed of themselves risking their bitch's life and now all these puppies.

I can imagine you are doing a lot of tongue biting just now.

Hope your puppies are all doing fine.

BFN

Pam

Update time!
There are now just 5 pups, and one more about to die I would say. Bitch feeds them twice a day...owners tries to top them up twice a day but with no real success. I was tempted to offer to try & foster a couple onto my own bitch but common sense told me not to get involved any more than I am already & risk anything happening to my very very precious litter, so just offering advice instead. They did eventually manage to get them docked (£12 per pup...thought that was quite reasonable) and dew clawed, so thats something, and having seen them again today, they are definitely pure ecs. No doubt the story will continue!!!

What a shame Sam :( I can't blame you for not offering to help rear the puppies - your first thoughts must be to your own puppies.

Glad to hear your pups are doing well - I'd love to see a photo if you get chance :)

Fiona
x x x

Hi Pam,
yes my babies are perfect and just fine thanks. re; the neighbours pups, see previous post!

Hi sam,

You are so right you must put you and your litter first regardless.

What a terrible situation. Fingers crossed the ownders get their act together for the remainder.

Good luck with your lot... pictures please :-)

Pam

Oh those poor puppies:( Has she got the mum & puppies in a quiet room out of the way of the other dogs. Maybe she'd be a better mum if she felt safe.
Jenny.

Well the latest is as follows!
Saw the owner of the bitch last night & asked after the pups....fine he said. I asked how he was getting on with the weaning....the what?
Apparently they thought the bitch did all the feeding until they sold them....didn't realise that they would need weaning & feeding. Not sure how they were going to manage 5 meals a day as Liz now back to work 3 days a week!
Then saw the stud dog owner when i dropped in the obligatory neighbourly Christmas card...she asked if I had seen "her" pups at the farm. I told her it was best not to mention it to me as I have very strong views on irresponsible breeding.....bit my lip & came home!