Surely if you weren't totally confident that there was no chance of a bitch coming into season you'd separate her from any males? And doubt at all and they'd be apart.

Silly me for thinking we could have a sensible conversation on an open forum ..I really should know better.


Not quite read to the end of this thread yet, but I am getting more and more angry with the cheek of saying that replies are anything to do with politics.

This site is and always will be about responsible breeding, responsible breeding isn't accidental matings, accidental cross breeding, accidental matings with mother, son, accidental matings with untested Sires, you expect us all to go Yipeee!

This isn't breeding, it's a disaster!

Every reply has been spot on with how this could happen, why did it happen, why did it continue. Personally as a responsible breeder I would never allow a bitch to continue to get anywhere close to whelping with any of the above scenario's.

Politics are nowhere to be seen, it is responsible breeding that is the issue and the only issue.

I find the excuses sometimes so lame to be honest. Any accidental matings should be stopped. Unless of course you think you maybe able to make a quick £ out of the way you advertise the litter :-(

> Not quite read to the end of this thread yet, but I am getting more and more angry with the cheek of saying that replies are anything to do with politics. <IMG alt=mad src="/images/mad.gif">

> This site is and always will be about responsible breeding, responsible breeding isn't accidental matings, accidental cross breeding, accidental matings with mother, son, accidental matings with untested Sires, you expect us all to go Yipeee!

> Politics are nowhere to be seen, it is responsible breeding that is the issue and the only issue.

Thank you Carrington.  I noted that no-one replied to Sarah, who would've been known to both Tina & Linda, and she commented on something Tina had written.   

>has changed the offending word on her website.

Unfortunately what she's changed it to ("very uncommon and may never be seen again") makes it seem even more hyping them up for more money. :-(

"These colours are unfortunately non-standard" would be much more realistic wording.

No comment on colours or the matings, but I do check my bitch, though not daily. My stud dog is an idiot that frequently likes to try and hump her quite obsessively, so I check every few days, even though she has never varied by more than a few days when she comes into season. Constant humping can be a sign of an infection too, so I keep an eye on her as she has had infections in the past.

I am extremely offended by the thought that anyone could take my posts to be "political" :(

As I said in my first post, I know absolutely NOTHING about Large Munsterlanders and I enjoyed learning about the colours - I know the theories behind colourings in LH cats and Australian shepherds, but nothing at all about LMs.

My points were about the "accidental matings" that appear to have taken place - for "responsible" breeders to allow such misalliances to go ahead fills me with misgivings - and that is the point that I wished to make.    And although I confess to being a cynic, I do find it hard to believe that anyone who breeds on a relatively regular basis - and I talk as one who has bred prehaps every 5-6 years - does not recognise that in common parlance that "rare" does not equate with "expensive".

Methinks that the ££s got in their eyes!

just a couple of questions needing answered.. I cannot fathom out which of these are true and which are untrue...

1) owner was checking daily for weeks before bitch came into season...and yet no-one noticed when she actually was in season and mated

2) these colours are rare, and may never be seen again.. yet in another statement.. these colours pop up from time to time

could you clarify please.. I would imagine there are a few people searching for good LM breeders reading this, and I am sure it would help immensely in their search to find a good honest breeder

> As I said in my first post, I know absolutely NOTHING about Large Munsterlanders and I enjoyed learning about the colours - I know the theories behind colourings in LH cats and Australian shepherds, but nothing at all about LMs.

Same here, and I also have an interest in colour genetics in all animals. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, is that now these non-standard colours have been produced, the dog & bitch responsible are proven carriers of the off-colours, so anyone wanting to avoid the possibility of producing these variations should be more aware of the lines which carry them.... although to hark back to a previous post, it was said 30 years ago that the probability would be they would start turning up further down the line, which they now are. An unfortunate side effect of breeding within a limited gene pool.... 'recessives are forever' as the saying goes.

>the dog & bitch responsible are proven carriers of the off-colours, so anyone wanting to avoid the possibility of producing these variations should be more aware of the lines which carry them....

Absolutely. The breeder of these puppies, having done an (accidental) test mating, now knows that she cannot mate her dog or bitch to any other LM which shares this bloodline, limiting her available genepool dramatically.

> Absolutely. The breeder of these puppies, having done an (accidental) test mating, now knows that she cannot mate her dog or bitch to any other LM which shares this bloodline, limiting her available genepool dramatically.

I think moreso, it is a wake up call to all LM breeders; having been postulated some time ago that non standards could come out further down the line, and they now are, it will need some thought and action if the breed is going to be kept to the one colour.

To avoid the off-colours could be to further limit the breed with regards to diversity. To accept the colours might be to open up the gene pool. As long as the dogs are conformationally and healthwise acceptable, what does it matter what colour they are? Closing down lines because of unwanted colour variants could be potentially damaging in the bigger picture.

Our breed the Flatcoated Retriever also produce 'non-standard' colours, in the main yellow, other colours have been talked about occasionally .  These yellow coloured puppies have been known to crop up from time to time in a number of lines, and some of our best dogs/bitches in the breed have been known yellow producers.   Today it is easy to avoid as we can now DNA test sire/dam if one should so wish, in order to avoid yellow puppies in a litter.

However, to avoid the lines completely (and now) in the earlier days would have been impossible and would have depleted our gene pool enormously, and we would have had a breeding bottleneck.   These puppies can be seen at birth (by their colour), registered as pedigree with their registrations endorsed 'progeny not eligible for breeding', nowadays registered colourwise as 'non-standard' and sold into companion/pet homes, at an appropriate price (usually reduced).  They make equally good companions and there is not any reason why they cannot make equally good working dogs.  They should not be shown or bred from.

In the early days great furore would ensue when any appeared.  Now times have moved on and the majority of us realise that barring their colour (for the show ring and breeding) has no reflection on their ability to leading healthy, fulfilling lives if placed in the right homes, which applies to any dog whatever the colour.

In 1986 I bought in a Large Munsterlander from a leading UK kennel.  We were told from the very beginning all about the brown Munsterlanders which occured in some litters, and were fully informed about all health issues within the breed, as to what was known at that time, and that this breed could be difficult to handle (as is the Flatcoated Retriever).  We never bred from her, as in my opinion she was a very difficult dog to manage, and I did not wish to have to cope with a litter of puppies being returned if the owners were unable to offer them a lifestyle that would suit their temperament.  We moved to where we are now because of this bitch, our property has a 12 foot wall round it, she regularly scaled this and would come off the top and then go deer hunting!!  We never had any birds in our garden because she could and would snatch them out of the air, she was very fast and powerful.  She lived until 13 years of age having had a successful show career and a fantastic life doing what she loved the best - hunting.  It is not only colour that stops one from breeding but that you have to assess all other issues, including health, longevity, type, temperament, etc., and in this case could families cope with dogs with such a driven instinct.

Unfortunately what she's changed it to ("very uncommon and may never be seen again") makes it seem even more hyping them up for more money.

:-D :-D Oh Dear! Completely agree.

It is very easy to see this is about money as, (very uncommon and may never be seen again is actually even more of a hype than rare) It is only to faulsely entice the pet dog owner, it gives the impression of "roll up, roll up, come and look, something special!"

If it is being quoted as 'never to be seen again' rather than saying 'not a breed standard colour' then why isn't the breeder keeping such unique stock? Why wouldn't the breeder wish to have these dogs. They don't want them because they are the wrong colour. It makes me laugh, and all I can say is buyer beware special, rare, unique dogs are kept by breeder, not sold to a pet dog home.

Of course they are lovely dogs just the same as the breed standard, but they should be presented as none standard colours, not rare, unique or never to be seen again, it gives the wrong impression................ as it is meant to do.

Val? (dogsdinner) I  started in the breed as you were showing your girl so I know her lines!     That's one thing I have always been interested in, pedigrees, and tracing back lines to the original German dogs.

The UK produces the highest amount of non-standard colours in the breed worldwide.      Browns & whites, which are normally the most commonly seen non-standard colour are rarely seen elsewhere but it was only a couple of years ago, that they made up for around 10% of the LM's born in the UK that year!

Yes Christine .  That takes us back a few years, she was sired by a German import as you know, which I think had very strong working instincts.  We had to retire her early due to rupturing a cruciate ligament, and then she developed bursitis on both elbows, both conditions being caused by stress (i.e. scaling the wall and jumping off the top!).   We found out that she only went over the wall if we were the other side!!   So after a couple of times if we went further and down into the woods, if we were not taking her with us we would shut her in the house.   That solved the problem, the walled part of the garden is at least an acre and she could then live her life working all day long without getting into trouble, she was very headstrong and if out you could not take your eyes off her, you had to be at least 10 steps ahead of her, but we loved her dearly, although I would never have felt comfortable with placing any puppies from her in pet/companion homes in case that they could not manage them.   She was also vocal when hunting usually starting at daybreak which as you know is early in the summer.

What I was trying to say earlier was that when we enquired about the breed nothing was hidden from us, warts and all, and we went away to make a decision, a good decision I may add, but even with the colour variations it did not stop us from having a puppy, so long as you enter a breed knowing not only all the virtues but faults as well.  The breeder never for one moment tried to hide anything, from colour, health issues, and to how difficult they could be.   I think that I had already fallen in love with their winning male at that time, a grand, handsome dog. 

Nice to speak to you, will look out for you possibly Crufts' depending how tied up I get, but if not WELKS or somewhere on the Ch circuit this season. 

You have an excellent memory.

In any of the breeds where non-standard colours come up - is it frowned upon for a potential puppy owner to ask for the non standard colour?

I can see that a concerned breeder would want to reassure themselves that the potential owner wasn't interested in showing or breeding but equally I can see circumstances in which the owner might just like the alternative colour and think they are being helpful in taking on a non standard colour.

>In any of the breeds where non-standard colours come up - is it frowned upon for a potential puppy owner to ask for the non standard colour?

Yes - because it encourages people to breed them. We have people actively asking for deaf puppies too .... :-(

Now why on earth would people ask for deaf puppies???

Have not had many families ask for a yellow, trying to think, possibly only 1 and that was someone who had a yellow puppy (born in my first litter) and she lived to be 14 and they wanted another just like her!!   But that applies equally to the blacks and livers (recognised colours), once someone has had a successful dog regardless of colour they want to perpetuate their much loved dog.  I do not think that the majority of people are aware of other colours occurring, so I do not really get enquiries for yellows, although we always mention it when they come to buy, especially if it is a foundation bitch and of course if we are exporting.   And before there was a DNA test for colour in the Flatcoat and our stud was wanted to be used (AI) abroad we made sure that the potential breeder was very aware of this. 

For a companion/pet home it does not really matter what colour they are (which should be reflected in the price of 'non standard'), so long as they are of a good temperament, fit and healthy and most people would like a dog to be long lived.

I suppose a breeder does not even have to register them, which would reduce the price even more (or it should), but nowadays possibly not with the fetish for the unusual i.e. as in designer dogs.

A long time ago these 'non standard' pups would have been culled, but now that would be frowned on.  I cannot see, personally that is, why any dog of 'non standard' colour, should not be able to find a suitable, forever home, if I just wanted a pet the colour would be the least of my worries.  The problem would arise when breeders deliberately breed for a 'non-standard' colour that could have long lasting implications, I believe that has happened with some other breeds.   

>Now why on earth would people ask for deaf puppies???

It gives them a kick to be able to brag about their kindness in taking on a handicapped pet.

I've had a litter in my breed with a non accepted colour in it.  Owners to be knew straight away and he was sold for a lot less than the accepted colours.  I did not take out the bitch nor the male from the breeding lines, especially asour breed is fairly rare in the UK and so far it hasn't cropped up again.

IN a breed where unaccepted colours entail a health problem I do not understand why anyone would breed for said colours.  They knew that he could not be shown, nor bred from.

Now why on earth would people ask for deaf puppies??? The same reason people pretend to have sick children or be very sick when they are not, attention seekers.  They come in all shapes and sizes and use animals and humans or whatever works.

> I think that I had already fallen in love with their winning male at that time, a grand, handsome dog.&nbsp;
>
>

That would've been Sh.Ch. Gorsebank Lord Magnum?   A fabulous sire for the breed as was his sire - Ch. Axel von Esterfeld of Raycris.  Both my current 2 are bred on each side back to Alex (Axel).   Oh to go back to the days of these 2 dogs who threw consistent type.

Yes Lord Magnum, he was stunning, completely fell for him.  As you say both were good sires.  I have not looked at the breed for a while, I must make the effort and have a good look to see how the breed has progressed.

Thank you Carrington.  I noted that no-one replied to Sarah, who would've been known to both Tina & Linda, and she commented on something Tina had written.

Actually Christine time flies, and I am not sure even of them knew me, so hopefully I am now long forgotten lol

On colour genetics - love the comment that recessives are forever!!!- I would make two comments, one, the fact it is a Mother /Son mating would obviously play to the problem with recessives, and would of course have meant no KC registration even if they were correct colours.  In Beaucerons a test mating has taken place regarding colour and on the results (bad) an amendment has gone to AGM to stop harlequin to harlequin matings taking place, not sure what the KC stance re registering them will be though :-(

In LM's if these colours have now cropped up again, without depleting an already small gene pool (in answer to an earlier moan - yes LM's often do have a lack of stifle, it is more prevalent in some lines and no effort to breed it out seems to be forthcoming) could a gene test not be looked into?

> In Beaucerons a test mating has taken place regarding colour and on the results (bad) ....

I'm surprised the mating even took place - Harlequin is the merle gene, surely? Plenty of data about what can happen when that is doubled up!

> In LM's if these colours have now cropped up again, without depleting an already small gene pool ..... could a gene test not be looked into?

That sounds like a good way forward - when you consider that unwanted recessives could comprise 25-50% of a litter in some cases!

I'm surprised the mating even took place - Harlequin is the merle gene, surely? Plenty of data about what can happen when that is doubled up!

Off the top of my head, not sure harlequin in Beauceron's is a true merle (something to do with whether there is white?) which is why test took place, not enough factual data was coming out of Europe unfortunatly

> In LM's if these colours have now cropped up again, without depleting an already small gene pool (in answer to an earlier moan - yes LM's often do have a lack of stifle, it is more prevalent in some lines and no effort to breed it out seems to be forthcoming) could a gene test not be looked into?

Hi Sarah!

Don't even get me started on stifles!   LOL!   Straight stifles existed in the breed when I came into it in 1986/7 and now we are 20+ years on and the same problem is there!   

There is a DNA test to determine if your LM carries brown and as these 'new colours' probably will stem more through brown carriers, I would assume the best way would be to test your dog to see if it carries brown?

There is also a DNA test to check for Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia.  Neither test is very expensive and it could save a lot of problems for the future? 

> Yes Lord Magnum, he was stunning, completely fell for him.&nbsp; As you say both were good sires.&nbsp; I have not looked at the breed for a while, I must make the effort and have a good look to see how the breed has progressed.

Mmmmmmmm I'll refrain from making a comment as I may get jumped on from a  great height!  LOL!

There is a DNA test to determine if your LM carries brown and as these 'new colours' probably will stem more through brown carriers, I would assume the best way would be to test your dog to see if it carries brown?

Interesting to know, I suppose it's no good though if it's an unseen accidental mating that isn't spotted until too late to have an injection - oops here we go round again lol

> Interesting to know, I suppose it's no good though if it's an unseen accidental mating that isn't spotted until too late to have an injection - oops here we go round again lol

The words horse, stable door & bolted spring to mind!  However, maybe it should be a requisite health test to be introduced as testing for ED was recently?

> There is a DNA test to determine if your LM carries brown and as these 'new colours' probably will stem more through brown carriers, I would assume the best way would be to test your dog to see if it carries brown?

It seems that some also carry Dilute = blue/lilac, so that would need to be tested for as well. Perhaps also tricolour?
I don't see any stable doors here; if anything it has shown up how widespread the 'recessives for ever' are in this breed. Like I said I know nothing about LMs but I do know about colour genetics.... it's hardly fair to blame this owner when it has only brought to light what's under the surface, and was warned about in the past.

Whoops have I opened a can of worms by my post ? :-(

I have spoken to my friend who is now wondering if LM are the right breed as the conflicting ethics seem to be a bit questionable ?

Have also noticed the straight stifles (without really looking very hard) but also have noticed that some seem to be rear end high (they are supposed to be higher at the withers are they not?) which I am assuming is associated with the straight stifle.   We get the same in our breed - will be shot down for mentioning that!!

I would imagine that the DNA test for colour would be a good idea, if not for all, at least for those who are known to have produced brown and white in their litters. However, you have to still look at the whole dog otherwise your gene pool becomes even more depleted, and there are far worse faults than colour (unless it is linked to a health problem) - as said previously these 'non-standard colour' puppies can be seen at birth and placed in companion/pet homes.   Whereas some health conditions are not apparent at birth and develop later, after a puppy has been sold, indeed some conditions may not even develop until after a dog/bitch has been bred from, then they have already gone back into the gene pool and by so doing increasing the percentage of them occuring in the future.

I have spoken to my friend who is now wondering if LM are the right breed as the conflicting ethics seem to be a bit questionable

I'll say. :-)

But good news LJS, you know the responsible breeders on here, just point your friend in the direction of those and she won't go far wrong.

I think you may have opened a large can of worms indeed.

I do find it interesting that this thread was started on the same day that the multi coloured litter was announced on the internet too. The timing of your friends Google into the colourings was quite unfortunate. Had this question been asked just a few days earlier I am sure this thread would have read quite differently.

I think if your friend is really interested in LMs she shouldn't allow this 1 thread to put her off. There are many sources of information and many many good breeders out there who would be happy to give her some advice and help her make an informed decision.

Regards

Pamela Kennedy

You know, now I am intrigued!   All of a sudden, there are LM owners/breeders joining Champdogs when in the past there have been two or three owners/breeders.....

Is this a gathering of the clans - or a drawing up of the lines????

It's hardly an Influx - I am merely 1 person!!!!!LOL

Relax - I don't think your forum is suddenly going to be overun by Mad Munster Owners!!!!

There are no clan gatherings or lines being drawn as far as I am concerned. I just wanted to let the person who was interested in LMs to know that there is more info out there if he/she wants it and not to base her thoughts entirely on this 1 thread.

Pamela Kennedy

I too have read this thread with interest, been on here for a while and breed LM,s. Please just remember that one of our most used and top winning stud dogs was also used on a bitch just before his 1st birthday.(no health checks either)
The other litter from a dog with no health checks, which was planned. Has got a clear eye cert and had joints screened and now been hip/elbowed scored.
From what I understand the breeder went all the way to Sweden to bred a stud dog to serve her girls, one of whom came in season 8 weeks early and all pups sold before mating.!!!!!

> I too have read this thread with interest, been on here for a while and breed LM,s.

From reading your past posts frenzy, I have a feeling I know who you are!  But it's amazing how many people have popped out of the woodwork or joined up in the time this thread was started!    Pam, Tina & I noticed someone yesterday who joined using their kennel name - which incidentally isn't allowed now!

Pam, maybe Lucy's friend had been looking through the breeders listed on ChampDogs and looking at their websites for available pups and happened to come across the litter we have been discussing?   Knowing Lucy has a great deal of experience with another gundog breed, perhaps they may have thought she could help or know of people who might know?  Or is this too logical?

Yes logical as I have many friends who have GD breeds and the friend concerned came to me as I mentioned about the concerns we have with the 'Silver' Labs. I would challenge anybody to prove are not a cross breed :-)

I knew we had a few LM breeders on here so hence my post. I am not sure where she got her info from as we are not close friends but can imagine if you google CD comes up if you do a search on breeding particular breeds

Not out of the woodwork been on here afew years.

38 posts in two years so not a regular contributor ;-)

No just a reader mainly

So do you breed and show ?

> Please just remember that one of our most used and top winning stud dogs was also used on a bitch just before his 1st birthday.(no health checks either)
> The other litter from a dog with no health checks, which was planned. Has got a clear eye cert and had joints screened and now been hip/elbowed scored

I'm not sure of the gist of your reply Wendy but you have to remember neither of the 2 dogs you have mentioned were mating their mother.

> Whoops have I opened a can of worms by my post ? :-(
>
> I have spoken to my friend who is now wondering if LM are the right breed as the conflicting ethics seem to be a bit questionable ?

Breed specific threads (on any forum) are invaluable to potential puppy people.  Not only can you read the actual questions and answers but you get a flavour of the people involved!  The fact that CD threads are still there from years ago means that you can mine lots of general information.  I had a question from a friend about flatcoats recently and did a bit of research on here to find answers in 2002 from current members as well as many that have fallen by the wayside.  I quite like the new people have signed up to comment on this topic and that lurkers/readers have decided to post.  It all makes for quite rounded reading :) 

When choosing a new breed it's important to get as much information as possible, and from a variety of sources.  I've owned a Large Munsterlander and there's been information in this thread that might have saved us some considerable heartache.  It may not ultimately have changed our decisions but I would certainly have asked some different questions.

I've read this thread with gathering amazment.

Breeding and showing LMs seems like conducting ones business in a goldfish bowl.

As much as I often curse the huge numbers of exhibitors in both of my breeds, it does mean that we dont all know everyones business.
A more comfortable state of affairs IMHO.

> I've read this thread with gathering amazment.
>  Breeding and showing LMs seems like conducting ones business in a goldfish bowl.

You are lucky then, perhaps, to own a very populous breed in a populous species. I have a lot of experience in other show animals and the goldfish bowl effect is present in most of them, regardless of what breed you choose.  As an outsider interested in the genetics, I have seen nothing that names anyone, but a great deal of discussion on breeding & genetics of a breed, to which I am impartial. If you ask me tomorrow if I could pinpoint or name any LM breeders or their dogs in this discussion, then I can't. (And I wouldn't.)

If there are political undercurrents, then what would you prefer - people happy to bring the question here to impartial judgement, or too nervous to broach so by default, it stays udner the carpet?

> As an outsider interested in the genetics, I have seen nothing that names anyone, but a great deal of discussion on breeding & genetics of a breed,

I dont know what thread you're reading but on this page alone, you seem to be only one of a handful still discussing the genetics of colour...almost all other posts are on quite another subject - mainly the ethics of the matter first discussed and personalities involved.