Yes we have gradually increased this new food but it seems the more of it he is having the more loose he is getting and today i took him out earlier this morning and his motion was formed but have just got back now and he was passing liquid i couldn't even pick it all up where it was so runny, then he went a bit further and was straining as if he wanted to go again but he just passed a few bits of liquid then he started rubbing his bum because his backside was damp, he certainly cannot go on like this, the wafcol he was scratching on but his motion was firm this is ridiculous he already had gland problems but nothing like this.
No we are all laminate in the house, he is treated with advocate as that is what the vet suggested.
The vet said that the elimination diet was the way to go as we have done all the allergy testing and come back negative but where he is still scratching and rubbing at his face he said sometimes the food allergies tests are not reliable so that was why he feels this would determine a food allergy, he said it will take 6-8 weeks to see any results but he cannot go on like this.
As for the raw diet i took him off of this because he was getting softer motion on it and we had trouble with his glands on this aswell, the breeder feeds naturediet in the evenings and origen dry in the mornings and suggested i put him onto this but i don't want to keep changing his food as i know this is not good for them.

Yes he was on the wafcol salmon and potato for about 8 weeks but we found his scratching didn't get any better but yes his mess was certainly firmer on it even though his glands were still a problem, it seems his bottom is as itchy as his face and i asked the vet whether it was connected as it seems funny to me but he said there was no link to the bottom scooting and the itchy skin, as i said in a post earlier i contacted the breeder and she said that 1 of the sisters in the same litter had pyoderma when younger but she hasn't heard any more from them so assumes there are okay, i just don't know whether to keep him on this food much longer or not, i have got an appt at the vets on Monday as his glands i think are gonna need doing but he cannot go on like this having them expressed every 2 weeks this is ridiculous.

> the breeder feeds naturediet in the evenings and origen dry in the mornings

IMO both Orijen and ND are better than the Hill's, but I'd wait to see what the Vet says on Monday before mucking around with his diet again. Depending on what the Vet says maybe the Orijen 6 fish would be a good option, I think I'd stick to one food rather than using ND as well.

Would having his anal glands removed be an option (I can't remember from previous posts if this has been mentioned)?

The vet suggested having his glands flushed through if things didn't improve but removal has not been discussed must admit i am not keen on going to that extreme i would rather try and find other options as i feel that would be the last resort!!!
I am not going to change his food until seeing the vet but am not keen on leaving him on the zd ultra as i feel his motion has got much worse since going onto this diet.
Wasn't sure about the Naturediet though with it having rice in it didn't know whether that would be any good for him and whether he could just have that on its own?

ND is a complete food and can, and is recommended, to be fed on it's own - I used to feed all my dogs on it, nothing else.

With Orijen being totally grain-free, I would try that first, and start with the 6 fish, so that he is only getting a single protein source. If all is OK on that after a couple of months, maybe try the Orijen Adult. But wait to see what the Vet says first. I think at this stage I would be asking for a referral.

ETA: If you go for feeding ND, stick to one variety until symptoms subside/stop.

Naturediet is in the pouch have never seen it in a can before have they brought this out new?
The orijen that you are saying about is that for puppies or adults? As you suggested the fish variety and said then move onto the adult one.
Am going to wait and see what the vet suggests tomorrow but he certainly cannot stay on that zd ultra as his symptoms are getting worse.

ND is in a plastic tray not a can (I think you've misunderstood my post, LOL) and has only ever been in a tray.

Orijen 6 fish is for adults but is a single protein source (fish). The Orijen Adult contains fish, chicken, turkey, eggs etc so has more than one protein source. It may be he is sensitive to any one of those, which is why I suggest keeping to just the fish to begin with, until his symptoms clear or improve. If he is OK with that you could then move on to the O. Adult to see if introducing other proteins sparks off his symptoms again.

Well back from the vets he said to stop the food and go back onto the wafcol salmon and potato as he certainly cannot stay on that with his motion like liquid, his glands were full so he has emptied them again he said all the time the motion is soft they will no doubt block again so we need to try and firm it up as quick as we can, he checked him all over and found round his mouth to be a bit sore he said he has got a fold of skin on the bottom jaw line that has become sore he said bulldogs and sharpeis get this in folds of their skin he has suggested clipping the fur back round the bottom jaw and wiping his mouth every time he eats he said sometimes it can become ulcerated but at the moment with robbie it just looks sore, he said this is genetic and he would have had this from birth, so he has clipped the fur back and said to keep it cut and see if it gets any sorer, trouble is he keeps pawing at his mouth and licking at it.
As for his skin he checked his feet again and has suggested that we use an aludex dip that they use to treat demodex mange/mites once per week for 4 weeks as he said they are still very sore he said that this is very potent so must be done outside and then take him for a walk until his feet dry, he has also said to still treat him with advocate every month aswell as this would inturn treat mites, he said even though we did skin scrapings to rule out mange/mites they can still be on the skin without showing up on the scrapings.
His ears are clear so no probs there and he said the rest of his skin looks pinky which shows up a skin reaction but he said we are still stumped really as to what is causing it.

his skin looks pinky

Was his skin pink or grey/blue/black when you bought him as a puppy?  And did he come from an experienced show breeder?

To be honest i cannot remember whether his skin was pinky when we got him i know that sounds really bad, he came from a pet breeder but she uses a show breeders stud dog and her bitches are from good lines so not from a bad breeder.

Mmm that's the answer I suspect.  No it doesn't sound bad at all.  If you don't know to look for it, then it wouldn't register. :)

Show breeders keep a number of dogs and don't want sensitive skin in their lines.  They don't want the trouble or expense when they keep a pup from each litter.  Their pups usually have dark skin.  With that comes course coats so good coats and good skin go together. :)

Pet puppy producers tend to not understand that and even if their bitch has OK skin, they don't know the dogs that are behind in the pedigree even if they are from good lines.  You only need one dog in the pedigree to have sensitive skin and it comes back and kicks you in the face time after time. :(  Pet breeders are more likely to produce pups with sensitive skin - a nightmare as you have found.

All the Westies that I had in the parlour with sensitive skin always had pink skin as pups and were always bred from pet bitches.  Hope that you can get it sorted.  Ongoing skin troubles are no fun for dog or owner. :(

My Westie has grey skin but when allergic reaction happens it turns bright pink grey ting. If you find out the Allergen and remove it from the system then you have a high chance of it not returning. The difficult bit is finding out what the problem is.

I know of one Westie last year that had cuts/crusts on both sides of mouth, a red front foot and very swollen and hotspots over her head and neck.  The vet gave Fendi 3 weeks of antibiotics and the infection itchiness and licking stopped.  Carol said the vet did lots of tests and still did not not have a clue why Fendi's skin was bad so tried the antibiotics and it worked.   I do not know if this info maybe of help but maybe your vet could try giving antibiotics to see if this helps.

Has enybody heard about this problem with the lip fold round the bottom jaw line that he has got it looks like the outer part of his mouth at the bottom is swollen didn't notice it until the vet shaved the fur back ystday as he is such a hairy westie, looks like this was what he has been scratching at and rubbing with his paw all along now as its in that right area, the vet said it will air dry now the fur has been trimmed back but as he is constantly pawing at it he is making it look really red and sore, any ideas what i could put on it to help it heal?
Its hard to describe but surely somebody must have heard of this before.

It's very common in spaniels.  Westies should have tighter mouths/lips.  It's usually recommended to bathe regularly with salt water.

The best thing to bathe sore areas is salted water - a teaspoon of salt dissolved in a pint of water - then let it air dry.

I thought the vet may have given him some cream to put on it as it does look very sore and swollen, he seemed to think that clipping the fur round his lower lip would heal it but the problem is he keeps pawing and rubbing at it which is making it look very sore.
He said in some cases it needs operating on to cut the thickness of the lip out meaning plastic surgery!!!!
I have tried looking it up on the internet it seems to come under lip fold pyoderma not sure if this is it or not?
Will try the salt water and see how it goes, he said to wipe his mouth after he has eaten as dry food is worse than softer food

Buster collar - he will not be able to reach it with his paws and will not be able to rub it up against anything..

http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Comfy-Collar/productinfo/COMFYCOLL/

I think I'd be asking for a referral to a Dermotologist now too. If mites have definately been ruled out, I can't see how it can be anything else but some sort of allergy.

Hamish, Natures Diet definately comes in plastic trays, but I think you maybe thinking of Natures Menu.  This does come in sachets, and I think I've heard somebody saying they've bought that in tins but I've never seen any of that in tins. I think they were part of the same company but split into 2 different companies a few years ago.

If you need the number of a Dermotologist, I can send you the number of one of our Vets and he specialises in skin problems.

Has your vet ruled out juvenille pyoderma or acne as the cause of the problem?

They did skin scrapings a couple of months ago that ruled out mites and mange but he said with mites sometimes they can only show up on a biopsy if they are burrowed in deep in the skin, thats why he wants to give the aludex dip of the feet a try for 1 month.
It seems his main problem at the moment is the lip fold area which does seem to go under a pyoderma when i looked it up on the internet, on contacting the breeder as i said before in a post the 2 sisters in the litter had puppy pyoderma when they were 4 or 5 months but they now seem to be clear as far as i know, the only other thing we have noticed with him is in the evenings when he lays on his bed asleep he will suddenly jump up as if he has been bitten and run over the far side of the room, if i didn't know better i would think he was bitten by a flea but would this be an allergy to cause him to do this?

When my boy had lip fold pyoderma our vet gave us diprobase which is a barrier cream, it helped clear it up in no time. Worth asking about maybe? It can also be bought over the counter.

Thank you for that, hope you don't mind me asking a couple of things what breed of dog is yours and has he had it reoccur which needs constant treatment, only the vet said that it will probably be a long term thing with Robbie, is there anything you have found that helps keep it at bay once it settles down?
It is looking worse at the moment because of the fur being shaved away but hopefully the air will start to get to it, the vet said its were he dribbles a lot out the side of his mouth and it has become sore and the fur has got clogged.

Drew is in my avatar so a Border Collie.  It has cleared up completely and so far hasn't recurred.

Did you find your dog kept on rubbing and scratching at it as if it was itchy as Robbie keeps pawing at his mouth and rubbing it on the concrete slabs when he goes into the garden.

Drew's mouth was itchy scabby and swollen and yes he did rub it along the floor quite abit.

Hamish75 you can get Diprobase or Aqueous Cream (Aqueous is a lighter cream) from your chemist with out a prescription. I have used Oilatum from the chemist on the advice from the vet before and it worked. You could also try childrens barrier creams.

Hamish Vet-medic does a cream called Otodex its for cats and dogs Its for eczema, sore spots, abrasions and minor burns.

Many thanks to you all for your messages, been a rather crappy day my grandad died suddenly this morning so feeling quite down at the moment, good job rob's here for loads of cuddles

So sorry my deepest sympathy

:( Im sorry too Hamish about your Grandad.