Hi

I am intersted in what are the accepted colours as I am a bit confused buy the info I have googled :-)

I know ChristineW and Lindylou have them, anybody else ? Any clarification as I have a friend who is very interested in the breed but asked me for advice

Thanks

Lucy
x

Hi Lucy,

The breed standard asks for a dog to be white or blue roan with black patches, ticked, flecked or a combination of these.   Occasionally you may get a brown & white pup in a litter (Or maybe more!) indicative of the GLP ancestry in the breed and there have been a few  tri-colours here and in Australia too.   The brown & whites & tri-colours are for pet homes only.

The breed standard says:

"Colour
Head solid black, white blaze, snip or star allowed. Body white or blue roan with black patches, flecked, ticked, or combination of these."

Hi Christine

Ok so are throw back colours acceptable as that is a term I have seen and not sure what is means ?

Not acceptable for showing obviously nor breeding with.      They would be 'pet quality' dogs to use a horrible term.

I think 'for pet homes only' or 'not breeding quality' is nicer/better for non standard types, like fluffies in Pem Corgi's or long coats in Akita's etc etc.

> Ok so are throw back colours acceptable as that is a term I have seen and not sure what is means ?

Throwback in this context means 'an animal that has the characteristics of an earlier type'.  Presumably to colours associated with the GLP ancestry Christine refers to.

I remember when I was quite young, listening to my friends mum saying that one of her puppies was a throwback - I burst into tears as I thought she meant to throw it away.  Apparently I was inconsolable :)

> Ok so are throw back colours acceptable as that is a term I have seen and not sure what is means ?

>Throwback in this context means 'an animal that has the characteristics of an earlier type'

Throwback does not neccessarily means that it is characteristic of an earlier 'type' .. ALL breeds today have at some point been crossed with another to get where we are.. genetically our well established breeds should never have throwbacks.. these should have been bred out many generations ago... our newer  breeds will still get the odd throwback since genetically there are still some 'crossover link' to the breed brought in for whatever reasons to strengthen a particular trait...

I would assume that, used correctly, the term throwback would mean that their is another breed coming through, and I would begin to wonder if there was an 'accidental mating'.

The other possibility is very tight inbreeding, where the 'brought in' breed was never fully bred out

It is practically impossible to bring in a new colour without a crossover..

That made sense in my head lol...

Hi!Ihad to look at this,purely because my sister had a munsterlander called Hannah,and I have such fond memories of her!So gentle and patient with my  collie pups,slightly loopy,full of character.We all loved her!Thanks for making me think of her!

> Ok so are throw back colours acceptable as that is a term I have seen and not sure what is means ?

Right Lucy, you are intriguing me now.  Have you seen something I haven't?

When my Seska (now 5 years old) there were 2 tri colours in the litter. We looked into the colours at the time and asked a lot of questions of the old timers' ;-) in the breed. Apparently there are more colours that are unacceptable for the show ring. Apart from the brown and white and the tri colours (which have cropped up recently) there is also a mole colour (dilute brown) and a blue colour (dilute black) I've seen browns and tri colours, but not the blue or mole.

>there is also a mole colour (dilute brown) and a blue colour (dilute black)

No doubt the sort of thing the unscrupulous breeder would market as 'rare'. :-(

Oops! Silly me ;-) The mole colour is the 'blue', not the 'pale brown'. I was in a hurry this morning and let my fingers go faster than my brain :-D

Thankfully, in our breed, word gets out very quickly when anything happens that is different, so any unscrupulous 'breeders' are quickly found out.

The 'mole' colour is the colour associated with those LM's that have had Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia.  It cropped up in a couple of litters in the 1970's born in the US, connected to exported UK lines.    There is a LM in the UK with FD.

It has now been bought to my attention a litter of LM's born recently with some non-standard colours being classed as 'rare'.  :-(

I am the breeder -but not the owner of the Large Munsterlander bitch that has just whelped a litter of mixed colour puppies. There is no doubt that they are Large Munsterlanders and not crossbreed, although this mating was accidental and not planned. By the time it was confirmed that the bitch was in whelp it was too late to abort the puppies without great risk to Mum to be.

Over the past two days I am amazed to find how many folk in the breed are not aware of the colour variations that are possible in the Large Munsterlander, including some who award CC;s at Champ Shows. The only colour which is allowed in the breed standard for KC registration and exhibition is the Black and White, which can be as dark as roan, or as light as plated black and white.

But the non standard colours do continue to  exist and occur from time to time, usually being found working or companion homes. These dogs are still lovely Large Munsterlanders in character, they just cannot be shown.

Brown and whites appear quite often if both of their parents carry the brown gene, and a few tricolours are in the UK today. The silver blue and mole variations appear much less often and to my knowledge there are no other living blue or mole 'munsters' alive in the UK TODAY. I am sure someone will tell me if they know different!
The breeder has said on her website that the pups are rare. To me rare implies uncommon, which they are. It does not imply an unscupulous desire to sell them at a high price ..they are merely a munster of non standard colour and the breeder will be selling them for the same average price that people ask for a brown and white munsterlander. They will be reared as diligently, vaccinated, insured and micro chipped the same as any of her other puppies. And I am sure will be delightful companions for the right person.

After the first few Munsters were imported in the early 70's there were  some litters between 1974  and 1982 in which all of these colour varieties
appeared. All of these colours derive from the animals which formed the group of hunting /pointing/setting /retrieving gundogs 2 or 3 hundred years ago before separate breeds were created to the preference of their enthusiasts to colour, size and the work they wanted them to do. Genes do not just disappear ,they are carried on from generation to generation but may not become obvious for years until the right pairing happens.
Close matings increase the possibility of doubling on genes which show up a certain characteristic such as these varied  colour .. conversely less close matings reduce risk.
Just because there have been no blues or moles for probably 25 years does not mean that the genes are not still in the breed waiting to show themselves when the right conditions allow them to express themselves. I can pinpoint several places in Mum of this litters 30 YEAR pedigree where the colour genes could have been passed on, all through KC registered black and white coloured dogs. The breed history is there to be researched -- where do some people think their dogs come from???

I find the whole thing fascinating, and I can't wait to see how these babies grow up!

HI Tina,

There IS a BHFD Large Munsterlander in the UK alive at this present time, this 'mole' colour is used to describe puppies that carry BHFD.  The Schmutz's in the US have investigated this problem as it occured in litters they had bred and it was interesting to then (Through Google a couple of years ago) find a UK LM with this condition.

Just as a footnote.  I can't remember the name of the drug concerned but there is a misalliance injection that can be given up to 40(?) days after accidental matings, by that time, you would definitely know your bitch was in-whelp.

>I can't remember the name of the drug concerned but there is a misalliance injection that can be given up to 40(?) days after accidental matings,

Alizin. It can be given up to 45 days after mating.

>The breeder has said on her website that the pups are rare. To me rare implies uncommon, which they are. It does not imply an unscupulous desire to sell them at a high price ..they are merely a munster of non standard colour and the breeder will be selling them for the same average price that people ask for a brown and white munsterlander.

With fashion being what it is, the word 'rare' suggests extra desirability to many people, and so should be avoided at all costs. 'Non-standard' is much safer wording.

>Just as a footnote.  I can't remember the name of the drug concerned but there is a misalliance injection that can be given up to 40(?) days after accidental matings, by that time, you would definitely know your bitch was in-whelp.

>Alizin

My vets won't use this as they are unhappy with the outcome. They have had problems using it and don't recommend it. They can no longer get the older injection as it has now been taken off the market.

And as to not knowing if your bitch is in whelp. I had a munster who was 7 1/2 weeks pregnant before we realised she was pregnant (by her son :-( ) Obviously not something I would have done, but OH didn't separate them at the time, even when told to do so. She was far too gone to do anything about it but let her have the litter.

> And as to not knowing if your bitch is in whelp. I had a munster who was 7 1/2 weeks pregnant before we realised she was pregnant (by her son :-( )

But she only had 4 puppies.  This bitch has had 9! 

And Alizin -v- pregnancy.  Every whelping has its risks too, bitches die during whelping or after so it's weighing up the pro's & con's and being responsible especially in light of the furore that was 'that TV programme'.

There is no doubt that they are Large Munsterlanders and not crossbreed, although this mating was accidental and not planned. By the time it was confirmed that the bitch was in whelp it was too late to abort the puppies without great risk to Mum to be.

Aren't they all contradicting statements?

> My vets won't use this as they are unhappy with the outcome

So if your bitch got caught by the local mongrel, you & your vets would be happy letting her go through with a full term pregnancy knowing that she could have 8+ unplanned mongrels?   

> To me rare implies uncommon, which they are.

To most people rare tends to imply exclusivity and higher value, it would be better to describe them as non standard.

So if your bitch got caught by the local mongrel, you & your vets would be happy letting her go through with a full term pregnancy knowing that she could have 8+ unplanned mongrels?

If it took so long to find out the bitch was in whelp then presumably no one saw the accidental mating so they could well be unplanned mongrels! If someone did see the mating then presumably any possibe pregnancy could have been terminated immediately with less risk to the bitch? Will these puppies have to be DNA tested before they can be registered with the KC? After all how could you prove that the sire was an LM if no one saw the deed?

DNA testing would be vital for registration if nobody witnessed the mating, otherwise the registration is fraudulent.

That's what I thought JG, especially with non standard colours appearing too.

I think with the clampdown on KC registrations, these puppies won't be able to be registered anyway as they are from a supposed son x mother mating.  Is that right?

Of course, I'd forgotten that. Even the standard-coloured ones are unregisterable, if that is indeed the supposed parentage.

Christine re;mongrels

As you know I had a litter of Gordon Setter x Munsterlander. If I had known the bitch was mated I would have stopped the pregnancy within days of the conception. Fay was caught by Fergus 25 days after the 1st day of her season calculated by the date of arrival of the pups. Alizan was not available then and even if it was I would have thought very hard about giving it to a young healthy bitch who had whelped easily before.

The resulting pups all have delightful homes and I keep in touch with all of them, their owners love them to bits. None have any health problems, they have stable temperaments, are great with their families, children and other dogs ..one boy is a valued member of a flyball team.

Are you saying these dogs are of less value to their owners than our pedigree dogs?

I have been asked to repeat this cross but of course I would not do that deliberately. And I learnt the lesson and now keep my bitches separated from my dogs for at least a full 4 weeks from the start of their season. Life is a journey and less than perfect along the way. Everyone makes mistakes but the outcome does not nescessarily have to be negative.

>So if your bitch got caught by the local mongrel, you & your vets would be happy letting her go through with a full term pregnancy knowing that she could have 8+ unplanned mongrels?  

As my bitch (any of them) are unlikely to be in this situation the question is immaterial. However, accidents can and do happen so I will answer that. Yes, I would rather have a large litter of mongrels/crossbreeds than a bitch that might die from the injection, or be very seriously ill. My bitches health has to come first.

As to this litter we are talking about, we don't know all the ins and outs of it, so why pick on the breeder? She now has a litter of puppies that were unplanned, and can't be registered, so they won't be going into the gene pool. Ok, the father hasn't been health tested because he is too young, but he isn't the only non tested dog that has sired a litter this year. Why pick on this litter? This wasn't planned, the other litter was. I'm not picking on the other breeder, who has been up front about it, just trying to figure out why this breeder has been picked on. Could breed politics be coming into play?

Back to the OPs original question. These colours are known about in the breed. There are records from the 70's that state that these colours were born back then. No one has kept records of non standard colours since, to my knowledge, so it has been a shock to many people. In those records it was actually stated that the writer expected these colours to start coming out in about 30 years time, which is now. Anyone who wants to know more should maybe get in touch with the Large Munsterlander Club itself.

Well I don't have LM's and have no axe to grind with anybody but I would be concerned about puppies from an untested sire who was presumably left for so long with an in-season bitch that they managed to mate and no one noticed! Good job they were the same breed eh? :-) I know accidents happen but to then advertise the puppies as 'rare' which we know from experience, whether or not this breeder meant it as such, is used by unscrupulous breeders to get premium prices for average puppies!

> Why pick on this litter? This wasn't planned, the other litter was.

I have no idea about any other litter? but if breeding from untested stock is a regular occurrence in LM maybe the OP should tell her friend to look for a different breed? Isn't this exactly what all the furore on here was about when 'that programme' was shown? How responsible breeders only use health tested dogs and BYB don't?

I've followed this thread with interest - I know absolutely nothing about colours in Munsterlanders and its always good to extend one's knowledge.

On the thread that seems to be running along side, I would take issue with Lindyloo - in my book any pregnancy has the ability to be detrimental to the health of a bitch - one only has to read some of the threads on Champdogs to see the number of times that veterinary intervention has been necessary and sometimes still results in a ceasarian section or even the death of a bitch.   I would not take such risks with my bitch in an unplanned breeding.

In the event of an unplanned mating I would - and have -  immediately resort to Alizen.   The resulting puppies may well be delightful pets - but even if one knows the temperament of both parents who is to say what health problems might occur in the future?    Especially if one parent is still too young to have been health-tested.   We are then in the realms of the unknown future health problems in the puppies.   In these ever-increasing litigious times how many of us feel that we can honour the life-long responsibility of the reputable breeder to take back at any time a dog that we have bred, when we cannot know what we have bred?

Tina - you say about your Gordon Setter/Munsterlander litter "The resulting pups all have delightful homes and I keep in touch with all of them, their owners love them to bits. None have any health problems, they have stable temperaments, are great with their families, children and other dogs" I am delighted to read this ...but what would you have done had this not been the case?

I love the way I have been singled out by both Tina & Linda as being the one most critical of these puppies, on this thread.  No breed politics there!

As I have said previously, every pregnancy carries a risk to the bitches health.   Foster bitch notices are seen within the pages of ChampDogs.  In fact it was only a fortnight ago, a Boxer bitch in Perth died leaving a very large litter to be hand reared or fostered.  I think you would find that more deaths occur through whelping than through Alizin.  So, if your bitch carried a litter of mongrels full-term, Linda and then died during or after whelping, you'd be satisfied with that outcome?

The other litter sired by a young LM that was born this year has:
a) resulted in 8 puppies
b)all black & white
c)not from a son x mother mating, the dam of this other litter is 5 years old. The dam of these non-standard puppies is on her second litter & will not even 3 yo until summertime.   

So to compare is immaterial.

And it seems that the morally correct decision to spay the bitch as soon as pregnancy was realised and terminate the pregnancy has never been broached!?!?

> And it seems that the morally correct decision to spay the bitch as soon as pregnancy was realised and terminate the pregnancy has never been broached

I always compose my replies in word - then cut and paste ....this time I missed that bit out! (Although everyone knowing me should know that is my credo!) .   Thanks for putting it in Christine !

While everyone is debating the 'colour scheme' of LM's, I am more concerend about the conformation... while judging a couple of weeks ago, I watched a few classes of LM's wile waiting for my classes.. and I swear out of a dozen dogs, there was only one decent stifle to be seen, movement was stiff, and conformation generally poor.. Are LM's supposed to have straight stifles: 

Back to health of bitches during whelp... I had a litter of desperately wanted pups.. I thought I would have given almost anything for a pup from my Ollie.. but when I nearly lost my Tia, going through 24hrs of life or death, I would have given anything not to have had those pups and kept my girl safe.. sorry, but some excuses just dont cut it.  Seems we are hearing them all too often

ooh.. and no breed politics here.. not my breed, just huge concerns in general ;-)

>but I would be concerned about puppies from an untested sire who was presumably left for so long with an in-season bitch that they managed to mate and no one noticed! Good job they were the same breed eh?

From what the breeder has stated to me and others, she was checking the bitch daily, along with a kennel mate that was due in season. Neither of them showed that they were in season. No blood, no swelling, so how can she be blamed for letting the dog run with his mum? The bitch should have been in season now, not 9 weeks ago :-(

Christine, I am not picking on you, just picking up on what you are saying, as you are obviously doing with myself and Tina.

We are all aware, not just myself and Tina, that there are differences in the breed. But this isn't just in our breed, is it? There are cliques in any breed that will say and do anything to try to upset the other side(s) Look at what happened a couple of years ago which led to the problems within the club where there was an SGM.

This topic started up by somone asking about the known colours in the breed. This has been clarified so I will have no more to say on this matter, unless things go private. It doesn't do anyone any good to argue on an open forum like this.

> Christine, I am not picking on you, just picking up on what you are saying, as you are obviously doing with myself and Tina.
>
>

It seems that many other posters have been making some extremely valid points but neither yourself or Tina were replying to them but just to me.    I was replying to points you had both made in previous posts about the welfare of bitches, pregnancy & whelping.

Its been a very lax state of affairs that should never have happened.    No, you cannot turn the clock back now but these 'other coloured' puppies are being marketed as rare when they are in fact in bred & non-standard to the breed.  I didn't bring any breed politics into this thread Linda, you did that all by yourself.   My comments would've remained the same had it been another breed and knowing the colours acceptable for it & the circumstances behind the litter, not the 'personalities' involved.

> she was checking the bitch daily, along with a kennel mate that was due in season. Neither of them showed that they were in season. No blood, no swelling, so how can she be blamed for letting the dog run with his mum? The bitch should have been in season now, not 9 weeks ago :-(
>

Does she often go around checking bitches every day that aren't due in season for 2 months then? Seems like rather odd behaviour to me :-) :-)

> From what the breeder has stated to me and others, she was checking the bitch daily, along with a kennel mate that was due in season. Neither of them showed that they were in season. No blood, no swelling, so how can she be blamed for letting the dog run with his mum? The bitch should have been in season now, not 9 weeks ago :-(
>
>

Just excuses ...a bit of carelessness and an accident happened - can (and does) happen to any of us - but then it needs sensible decisions made - not just "hope fo the best" - and get rid of the thoughts that pups = pounds
:(

How sad that the original question about colour in Large Munsterlanders should deteriorate into remarks about politics. My first post was intended to give a thoughtful answer and the back ground info for those who were genuinely interested.
Dakko bear I have no idea who you are or why you are so obsessed with use of the word 'rare' but it would appear that several times throughout this discussion you and others have accused this breeder who presumably you don,t know of being unscrupulous - I would be very careful what you say.

Silly me for thinking we could have a sensible conversation on an open forum ..I really should know better.

In answer to the comment that my crossbreeds might not have been healthy etc I can only say that both parents were already hip scored for their breed and eye tested [including the Gordon Setters eyes!] so they were probably less likely than many crosses or pups of unknown parentage to have problems. Any litter -pedigree or other wise has the potential to have a health problem and the only way to fully protect a bitch whether from risk .. whether whelping or from misalliance treatment ..is not to breed at all and spay her. Kinda throws the baby out with the bath water doesn't it.

If my crossbreeds had developed any problem or needed rehoming I would have supported them and their owners exactly as I do my pedigree pups. They were born in my house, and as far as I am concerned I have a responsibility and interest in them all from cradle to grave!

As far as curbing iresponsible breeding behaviour in all breeds I applaud the Kennel Club for ruling that they will no longer register pups from very close matings. But they don't go nearly far enough.

I would like to see them refuse registations from litters where the parents have either failed health tests or not been tested at all, and also from over age bitches and bitches who have whelped on two consecutive seasons. People keep getting away with this bad behaviour and the KC should close the door, no prevarication, special circumstances or excuses accepted.
All of these practices have occurred in LM's in the past 2 or 3 years and I am sure that those of you in other breeds can think of examples of your own.

Christine: I have addressed you because I know you and I don't personally know most of the other people who have contributed to this thread; surely you agree with my last two paragraphs??

I hope that anyone who would consider having an LM is not put off, they are a wonderful, intelligent, and rewarding breed. Just research your breeder very carefully beforehand and be as sure as you can be that they are genuine.

> Christine: I have addressed you because I know you and I don't personally know most of the other people who have contributed to this thread; surely you agree with my last two paragraphs??
>
>

> I would like to see them refuse registations from litters where the parents have either failed health tests or not been tested at all, and also from over age bitches and bitches who have whelped on two consecutive seasons. People keep getting away with this bad behaviour and the KC should close the door, no prevarication, special circumstances or excuses accepted.
> All of these practices have occurred in LM's in the past 2 or 3 years and I am sure that those of you in other breeds can think of examples of your own.
>
>

Personally I would add to that, bitches that are under the age of 3 should not be mated.  This is a slow maturing breed & there seems to be some over-riding desire  to get your bitch into whelp at the earliest opportunity.    Just because a dog or bitch may pass the relevant tests doesn't mean it's suddenly a desirable specimen of the breed to be bred from, far from it in many circumstances.    There's way too many LM's being bred out there from parents who've won nothing or very little in the showring or have no proven track record as working dogs either.   And it has been shown more than once that dogs can pass an eye test at an early age and then fail as they have gotten older, these animals could've been bred from on the strength of an early eye test.  Ditto dogs who have 0 elbows but yet siblings are diagnosed with ED & OCD but the dogs with 0 scores are deemed suitable breeding material?    

> If my crossbreeds had developed any problem or needed rehoming

I believe one has been within the past 6-7 months if my source is correct.

>Dakko bear I have no idea who you are or why you are so obsessed with use of the word 'rare' but it would appear that several times throughout this discussion you and others have accused this breeder who presumably you don,t know of being unscrupulous

The fact is that the unfortunate breeder of these pups (how disappointed she must be, as well as kicking herself) is presumably unwittingly using one of the terms favoured by unscrupulous breeders to try to enhance their stock's marketability. Perhaps, Tina, you could advise her of this so that she can change her wording and therefore distance herself from such practices.

Thank you Jeangenie - will do although ultimately the choice is hers. Love your name and it's Bowie connotations

Christine ????your last sentence.  This is no secret, so kindly inform us who your 'source' is please

Tina if you were a regular on this forum or had read any threads other than this one you would know that there have been many discussions on the terms, particularly 'rare' and 'teacup', that are used to gain premium prices for otherwise ordinary puppies or those of non-standard colours. As JG says perhaps your friend would be best to avoid the terms.

Should this thread not be closed now?  Seems very personal and is not really helping the original post now.

Thank you Dakkobear for explaining your point nicely. You should be pleased to hear that I have spoken to my friend and she has changed the offending word on her website. She says 'sorry - I don't have a degree in English'  - lol

She is obviously very sensible :-D I hope she finds good and happy homes for her puppies soon :-)

>Does she often go around checking bitches every day that aren't due in season for 2 months then? Seems like rather odd behaviour to me  

I must admit I check my girls daily, even the one that has been spayed. :-p Am I in a minority? I like to keep an eye out for infection. I didn't think anything unusual about her checking hers.

>Am I in a minority?

I'd think so! I wouldn't be checking to see if a bitch was coming into season two months before expected; a week or two perhaps. If I had any suspicions that one might be coming into season (hence checking) she certainly wouldn't be running with a male!

Maybe she was checking because if I understand right the bitch had had a litter in a last year or so, her seasons could have been thrown by this...
she was also living with a bitch that was going to be in season so this could bring her in as well?
So quite sensible really to keep checking, only takes a second to check...