Hi All

My westie Robbie is 18 months old and for the past few months has been rubbing and scratching at his face, when he is in the garden he constantly rubs it up the fence or furniture anything really that he can get to, in the house he rubs it up the door frames and furniture he also paws at his face and eyes as if he is rubbing them, i have checked all over his face and cannot see anything but obviously something it bothering him, he also suffers from recurring blocked anal glands and scoots his bum a lot on the floor, i have had them emptied at the vets but within a week he is doing it again, when he sits up with me he sometimes leaves a mark on your clothes and it has got a horrible fishy type smell to it.
I have had him checked at the vets and they have done allergy testing for food and outside and inside inhalant allergies but they have all come back clear no grass or house dust allergies the only food allergy was duck but that was 1 out of 5, the vet is stumped as to what is causing it as he said face rubbing 9 times out of 10 is a food allergy, he said that the allergy tests are not always 100% reliable but surely a strong allergy would have shown up. I was feeding him on a raw diet but that didn't seem to agree with him so the vet suggested swapping him onto wafcol salmon and potato which he has now been on for 2 months but is still constantly rubbing at his face.
When i spoke to the vet this week he said the next step is a exclusion diet like hills zd ultra as that eliminates the possible causes but seeing as his tests have not shown anything i am not sure if this is going to prove anything or not, i would be all for it if an allergy had shown up but seeing as all results have come back clear i cannot understand what would be causing this.
Somebody suggested giving him a piriton tablet but i am not sure whether human drugs are safe for dogs or not, have never heard about this before.

Helen

Do you use any products around the house such as Febreeze or Shake 'n Vac? This sort of thing may not necessarily show up on allergy testing but may be worth considering.

Hi

No we don't use anything like that at all, we have got laminate floors throughout the house so no carpets. Just cannot understand why he keeps pawing and rubbing his face up everything, the vet is stumped because he said going by the allergy results there is no reason to cause him to do this, but something is definitely bothering him because otherwise i cannot see why a dog would constantly rub at his face for the hell of it!!

We have tried to think of everything it could be and i have contacted the breeder who has taken a look at him and she said that there is definitely a cause for him rubbing his face as she looked after him for a couple of days when i went away and she said thats all he wanted to do when he was with them even though she has got other dogs that may have helped take his mind off it.

Not sure whether this zd ultra diet is worth doing if no allergies have shown up, the vet said thats the only other thing he can think of trying.

Hamish is your dogs hair falling out too, or is it just itchy?  Has your vet done a skin scrape to check for mites or swab tested his facial skin to check for yeast/bacterial skin infections? Or does he mess about near any specific trees or plants in garden or house?  Have they also checked inside his mouth/ears to see if anything maybe causing the irritiation?

I've heard of dogs being allergic to plastic dog bowls/beds too.

> Somebody suggested giving him a piriton tablet but i am not sure whether human drugs are safe for dogs or not, have never heard about this before.

You can give Piriton for allergies but check with your vet first.  I use it with my boy but he has known allergies and I find it very helpful to reduce the itch-scratch-itch cycle giving my other remedies a chance to work.  It doesn't work with all dogs and you must be careful with dosage but vets may prescribe if they feel it would be useful.

Both of my dogs like to wipe their faces.  One will do it after every meal but only til his face is clean and dry, and he likes to use my curtains!

It may be worth giving Hamish a face wipe after every meal to see if it helps, and whilst you explore other options.  A very dilute solution of Hibiscrub on a flannel may be sensible - this works with my itchy boy, but I have to dry him afterward or he throws himself on the carpet til he's dry. :)

Ive safely used Piriton on my dogs numerous times but  I always go for the non-drowsy ones.  And for a Westie, I'd go for the childrens one. 

Has your Vet checked his eyes too for any problems, like ingrowing eyelashes etc, that may cause him to scratch his face?

Hi

They have done scrapings and the allergy testing the scrapings ruled out mites/fleas and all other tests have come back clear so we are really in the dark as to what is causing this, the vet has come up with this zd ultra exclusion diet because he said if his scratching improves on this it will point to a food allergy afterall, i am not sure whether to put him on this or not, have heard about people using piriton before but not sure what doseage he would need, i did ask the vet about this but he said antihistamines don't work on dogs and that they don't advise them!!!!

The dosage for Piriton for a westie is either 1/2 a tablet (try to start with) but can be increased to 1 tablet. They can also be given for wasp stings so are very handy to have. I think the maximum per day is one tablet.

Make sure it is the Piriton tablets you have to get at a pharmacy and not Piriteze which can be found on shelves in supermarkets etc.

My last vet prescribed them at one point but also said they are cheaper to buy over the counter (particularly when it is buy 2 get one free offers).

Ailsa

Hmm interesting statement from your Vet :)

I've used them numerous times, last summer more than ever, 3 wasp stings on different dogs, one on stomach, one on lip and worst one was on eyelid. That went up like a balloon so I gave her a Piriton straight away and zoomed to the Vet for him to check her.  The others went away by themselves.

He keeps a bottle of Piriton in with the rest of the medicines in his surgery cupboard aswell :)

Thank you for that, think my vet is not interested in antihistamines for some reason, do you know if you can buy prition on the internet?

Hamish it would be cheaper to go to your local chemist to be honest.

If you are not happy with your vets diagnosis and the problem persists, I'd ask for a referral to a Dermatologist and see if they can help.

The trouble with using Piriton is that it will only mask the symptoms. I'd prefer to go the exclusion diet route and try to eliminate the problem rather than covering them up.

Don't want to worry you but even with clear allergy test results an allergy can still be the cause.

My daughter has a serious allergy ie 6 Epipens used in 8 wks - we're talking anaphylactic shock, 999 emergency treatment at A & E yet she has NEVER tested positive for any alligen ALL her tests have come back normal.  We know milk can set her off but her RAST test, specifically milk proteins come back negative, her immunologist has advised they may never know what's causing her reactions, it should have taken 10 yrs to go from 1 junior epipen to 2 xl ones - she took just 6 days!

With this sort of behaviour I WOULD give antihistamines as all allergies do progress the more the body is subjected to the alligen itching, runny eyes and nose, sneezing are all signs of intolerances an allergy progresses to more serious symptoms ending in anaphylactic shock.  It is very simple to check diet via exclusion, a veg diet for a wk will help to clear the system and give his immune system time to calm down again, then give him his regular diet, if that is the problem he will react within a few hrs to a wk. 

Maybe it could be down to the other ingredients in the food/outside/home that the allergy testing doesn't test for.

It seems the food isnt realy working for your dogs back end and itch.
For the Itch try giving just fish(or other meat) and potatoes (or  rice) for at least two weeks to see if this calms the itch down. If cooking is not what you want to do then you could try Burns cod and arctic char moist food as it only has Cod (minimum 45%) Arctic Char (minimum 45%) Rice Kelp and Carrageen. I've known a few people who have had good results with this food and lilys kitchen dog food. Personally I would go down the home cooking road for at least three weeks to see what happen.

I do find it odd that your vet does not like giving antihistamines hmm..

I was thinking teeth, could have have a bad tooth, or a salivary abscess???  Also what about Westie jaw, does that cause discomfort?  Is he showing any symptoms of this condition that affects the skeletal development of the jaw.

Its only his face that he constantly rubs and paws around his eye area scratching with his back leg and he scoots his bum a lot, he has got a fishy smell about him sometimes when he sits up with you and leaves a patch on your clothes, he sniffs round his back end a lot and chases his tail, would his anal gland probs and the itchy face be connected with allergies? I have asked the vet and he said its not connected but it seems strange to me.

...Hi to you both :-)

The smell you describe is that of full anal glands.  If he's licking his paws and rubbing his face, could that be caused from the discomfort of the glands that he so needs to get to?

> could that be caused from the discomfort of the glands that he so needs to get to?

Sometimes dogs will chew patches in their flanks from frustration of uncomfortable anal glands.

The fishy smell is the anal gland secretion that is normally coated onto their poo.

What is his poo like, it should be well formed and firm and dry enough to roll onto a shovel, then it will clear the glands naturally.  Have you tried adding bran to his food, this can help some dogs.

Also what about Westie jaw, does that cause discomfort?   Do you mean " lion Jaw" IE CMO..   Hope you haven't heard it called Westie Jaw.. :-D :-D  Poor breed LOL . 

Besides Westies, Scotties and Cairns, Boston terriers, Boxers, Labrador retrievers, Great Danes and Doberman Pinchers are all breeds known to have been affected with it.

Anyway CMO generally rears it's head between 6 weeks and 6 months and clears I think by around 12-13 months so that sounds very unlikely.

I think it must be something in the enviroment if the anal gland connection has been ruled out.
 

>Also what about Westie jaw, does that cause discomfort?   Do you mean " lion Jaw" IE CMO..   Hope you haven't heard it called Westie Jaw..    Poor breed LOL

I'm afraid that's one of its common names:
Westie Jaw.

Certainly not medically.  I am in the breed and never heard it used.. of course Lion jaw and CMO are the commonly used ones.  For such a rare thing it is a terrible saying.   My vet has seen in once in 30 years I know this not because I have had it because I did a bit of studying on it a while back whilst doing a health survey.  Of course it is this breed and so many others but I hate breed generalisations.

Can you imagine people saying "labrador hips"  or    "Sharpei eye"  LOL.. crackers.

>I am in the breed and never heard it used.

I'm amazed. I'm not in the breed, and have heard it used so often I was surprised to learn that other terrier breeds get it too.

Put 'Westie jaw' into google and you'll see how common the phrase is. It's even used in the health section on breed information sites.

I'm not in the breed, and have heard it used so often I was surprised to learn that other terrier breeds get it too.


It is more common in terrier breeds but it affects more than just terrier breeds :-)  I only found this out doing a bit of studying on two health issues that can affect westies.

It is interesting you saying that JG,  have you seen a few cases of it recently??

I am suprised really to hear that anyone hears of it often even the official name as it is so rare. Most people I have discussed it with rarely even knows what it is..   The believed % of carriers x the % chance of meeting another carrier, then the % of affected even meeting a carrier makes it quite rare.  Of course it occurs but the % is so very very low in relation to litters born.    Don't get me wrong I am not dismissing it,  it is one of the 2 things that is seen in our breed and I faithfully donate and support the US Westie foundation who are more than half way there to providing a test for this and also Atopia

I have 3 vets in my area , at the time I called them all 3 . One of them, Petplans top Vet practice last year and senior partner in business for 30 years, the other 2 approx 25 years , collectively only 2 cases seen in all this time between all 3. I actually expected more than this and was suprised.  When doing a bit of studying on it I made the point of using Vets only as I thought they would be less bias in protecting the breed.  So even from someone working in a vet practice I would still be suprised not only if you heard the terminology used often regardless of what word used( unless it is the same group of people of course) and I would be more suprised if you actually came across it very often.

Certainly genuinely interested to know though :-)

So hearing any of the terms " often" would be worrying.   

It does sound like an allergy to something as he's rubbing his eyes and face, but I also think the food is not good due to the anal gland problems Hamish.

I would try washing his face with diluted hibiscrub and have a good check over to see if any grass seeds or anything else maybe causing the problem. Brush his teeth daily to rule out gum and tooth problems and also do a home cooked diet to see what happens. You could also try washing bedding every two days and using natural ingredient cleaning products.

Westie is my breed and I must admit I have only known it to be called Lion Jaw, I've learnt something new today :)

>It is interesting you saying that JG,  have you seen a few cases of it recently??

No, as you know it's a rare condition, but it's one that, if it's going to occur it's more likely to be in a Westie than in any other breed, so the vets associate it with this particular breed; in practice skin conditions are far more prevalent.

if it's going to occur it's more likely to be in a Westie than in any other breed,

Possibly because there are more badly bred pet Westies than any other of the terrier breeds.  I saw 3 in the grooming parlour - all big ugly Westies with poor skin and thin soft coats, demonstrating what sort of people had produced them :(

I've only ever heard of it in layman's parlance as Westie Jaw.

That is what I was going to say WC,  I would hazzard a guess that a % affected of the breed population would show it not that more common than in the other terrier breed that is affected, however we are over run now with the puppy producers.

I feel so sorry for the breed at times, I touch wood I have been very lucky is all my dealings with the breed, health, temperaments, good mothers etc.

Lets hope we see tests for these things soon, once the tests are avaliable they can be used to help educate the impatient public who won't wait on a well bred puppy from good breeders to buy from tested parents only.

That was so funny Barbara, you could picture my face when I read it... :-)  I was suprised to hear it called that.  I guess when you google things by their correct name the slang names don't come up as much.

Shame how breeds are tarred so much really not just this one but in general.

This is why I worry about how any data collection of health problem by breed reported by vets will work.

Half the dogs may not even be purebred and a breed end up attributed a problem that is wither not really a breed related one, or related to poor breeding.

Ditto, and that in mind , the vets do only generally see those affected by something,  Most of mine see the vet for puppy vaccination only or whelping. in fact on 10 years I have only need one trip to the vet for anything except that and it was minor.

When I contacted the vets (3) to ask informally how often they had seen CMO along with a few other health issues I was suprised myself just how low the occurrence was.

I think these are the things I would like Breed health Co-ordinators to start working on rather than waiting on the KC to ask someone to do things.

>This is why I worry about how any data collection of health problem by breed reported by vets will work.

I suppose because they're the ones who see the greatest number of dogs, of all breeds and crosses, than anyone else. Just as human doctors are the ones who supply the statistics for human health, so vets must be the ones who provide the information on canine health. They are also, in general, less biased than breed specialists, whose natural inclination is to defend their beloved breed and possibly unintentionally skew the data.

Oh the vets are the right people (as per Bateson suggestions) to do the reporting, it's breed mis-identification that worries me.

it's breed mis-identification that worries me.

As well as not understanding the difference between knowledgable breeding and pet breeding.  They tar all 'pedigree dogs' with the same brush, as do the RSPCA and others. :(

>it's breed mis-identification that worries me.

Even owners don't know what breed they've got a lot of the time!

Robbie has been fed on wafcol salmon and potato for a couple of months now with no sign of the itch calming down thats why the vet is looking at the exclusion diet to see if this would help him.
They have checked his jaw over and the rest of his body and there is no problems with teeth or the jaw, it is just his face around his chin and up to the eye area that is the main problem he rubs his paws over his eyes and scratches under his chin and around his face and rubs his face up furniture in the house to try and eliviate the itching. His bum when he is in the garden he scoots on the floor but not so much in the house just the odd occasion, the itchiness seems wose first thing in the morning and in the evenings he seems very uncomfortable.
His motion seems quite firm not runny and is easy enough to pick up i wouldn't say it is rock solid but nothing unusual. i spoke to the vet this morning about him and he said the only other option is a course of steroids which i am not over keen on as i feel it will only take the itch away for a short course of time and once you stop them he will be back to square 1 again we are not actually going to get anywhere by being on it.
When i spoke to the breeder she said 1 of his sisters in the litter had pyoderma when she was younger but that has now cleared and the owner said she is okay, could this be linked to what Robbie has got?

I have a bitch who suffers every year from grass allergy I have been using piriton (vets advice) morning and night throughout the summer months  which works for my girl . Bit concerned your vet doesnt know this as it is quite common knowledge.

I have a friend who used this on a dog that was itching for no apparent reason ...its an oil and shampoo she is raving about it You could give them a ring http://www.karenruggles.co.uk/rs_ruggleit.htm

Just a thought with it being only his head ..what plants do you have in your garden if he is sticking his head in them it could be some kind of reaction..try fencing your garden grass and plants off and see if it has any effect. (my husband cut some lelandi down a few years ago and got a terrible rash from it as it was very higha nd he had to lean over it to cut it down).

I am gonna ask the vet again about using antihistamines all he is coming up with at the moment is a course of steroid which i am not that keen on as i feel it may improve him while he is on it but as soon as he stops the itch will come back again until we find out whats causing this, we have got our garden fenced off as its quite big and it was done when he was a puppy and we haven't got round to opening it up, haven't got any grass on the bit he gets on either as its all slabbed off so cannot be grass or plants.
The vet admitted he is stumped and said its obvious its an allergy but to what we don't know, have checked all over his face but cannot see anything on it, but the rubbing is defo getting worse and he just lays there licking his lips at certain times aswell which the vet said is linked to an allergy.

what do you clean his bedding with ? and your wooden floors not flash?

Is this of any help?http://www.vetbase.co.uk/information/pyoderma-a-bacterial-skin-disease.php

Toads, they excrete a substance from their skin that causes an allergy, this would also affect his lips if he had tried to lick it.   They hide underneath stones etc., so you would not need any plants, just somewhere cool, damp and dark.

Thanks for the link very interesting, we wash his bedding in fairy non bio and on a 60 wash so its very hot as this is what the vet recommended he sleeps on vetbed, our floors we do use diluted flash to wash is this not any good then? what would you suggest to mop them with?
Good news at last i spoke to the vet again a little while ago and expressed my concerns about the steroid and he agreed with me that it will be an on going process of being on them stopping the itch then coming off of them and the itch returning and starting them up again, i pleaded with him to let us try an antihistamine and he said as a last resort to ge some piriton from the chemist and give him half a tablet twice daily for 5 days no longer he said if there is going to be an improvement it will be quick so after 5 days if he is no better to stop them and we will have to try a different sort, he said it will be no point trying the same 1 for too long as the results should be instant.
He has suggested if no improvement soon to consider a dermatologist taking a look at him to see if they can come up with anything as he said that would be the next step in his eyes, i think that will be a good idea as we don't seem to be getting anywhere at the moment.

My vet told me years ago that Flash  is one of the worst for causing rashes in dogs , this was in a conversation nothing to do with my dogs.I have always remember it, that vet has now retired.

I wash my floors with fairy washing up liquid which seems to do the job for me.When I have puppies I add a drop of parvo virocide to the water .

I think it would be a good idea to see a dermatologist rather than heading straight into steroids which are just masking the problem.

(but first I would lay off the flash just in case)

Thats interesting to know will change the floor cleaner just incase, never heard of that before but thank you.
I was looking into going to see a homeopathic vet with him but wondering whether a dermatologist would be the better option just don't really know what to do for the best with him at the moment.
Have started on the zd ultra diet with him as he feels this will rule out a food allergy but he said it will take 6-8 weeks to see any real improvement, not sure how long it will be to see a specialist but worth getting the ball rolling i guess.

Well started him on the piriton on Wednesday half a tab twice a day but no improvements up to now the vet said if after 5 days no better not worth carrying on with it, have made him an appt for Monday as his glands are blocked again scooting really badly and also chewing at his feet!!!!
He has been on the zd ultra now since wednesday but have found his motion really really soft he has been passing liquid and straining to go, not sure whether its the food but he hasn't had anything else wouldn't have thought it would do this though as surely a allergen free food wouldn't cause the runs!!!
If this continues on this food for too long its gonna defeat the object cause his glands are already a problem without the food causing his motion to be soft which will block them even more, at least on the wafcol his motion was firm, no change in his scratching at the moment either but not sure how long the food would take to ease this problem, anybody used this before that may be able to comment?

I have never heard of zd ultra - out of interest what ingredients are in the food?

I really can't see how this diet can be classed as allergen free? Looking at the ingredients (Maize starch, chicken liver hydrolysate, vegetable oil, cellulose, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, salt, DL-methionine, taurine, vitamins and trace elements. Contains EU approved antioxidant) maize and chicken are well known to cause allergic reactions in some and I haven't a clue what some of the ingredients are.

Have a look at http://www.crpf.org.uk/index.php?section=535 which gives a glossary of some of the ingredients, and it's quite a good site in general for looking for pet foods with clearly-labelled ingredients.

I can't find a list a ingredients for Wafcol (am I right in thinking it is the Salmon and Potato you were using?) but it sounds as if that was suiting him better tummy-wise, which makes me wonder about the maize in particular.

I would imagine the food is causing the loose stools did you change over a period of days as a complete change can cause upset tummy .
If he is scratching his feet have you treated him for mites ...itchy face, itchy feet ...would ring those kind of alarm bells for me.
Have you carpets in any part of the house that he goes, if you have I would be treating it with a household spray such as acclaim available on line or from the vet.

If he has the runs I would cut the food out and give him white fish and potato after  24hr

You poor girl what a time of it you are having.

personally if I had tried all these scenarios then I would be asking for a referral .

> I was feeding him on a raw diet but that didn't seem to agree with him

Just looked back at your previous posts where you mentioned raw didn't agree with him. Can I just ask in what way? I would have thought a raw/homecooked exclusion diet would be the way to go as you can fully control what is in his diet.