i have been reading the other thread about the stud fee  and I have a query. It has been stated several times that you pay the stud fee for the dogs services not for the puppies therefore the stud fee   is not returnable even if no puppies result. i have to say this makes absolutely no sense to me at all?
the ony reason i would want my bitch mated would be to get puppies. I am certainly not going to do it for her amusement so  why should I not expect to get puppies from a mating and why should I pay for the dogs services if I don't get puppies?
I know it is not neccessarily the dogs fault if pups don't result but neither is it neccessarily the bitches fault. Why should the stud owner take all the money for a few minutes work when the bitches owners costs are likely to be much higher with preparing for the litter, scans, maybe cesareans etc? so they lose the stud fee plus all this?

It is the norm to pay a stud fee after mating (in our breed anyway) as long as the dog does the business and a tie is achieved he has done his job, as long as the dog is fertile (which we do get ours checked regularly) it is then up to the female to conceive, we took a female to Germany to be mated 18 months ago, 1 mating is allowed only, dog did the business, 30 minute tie, our female missed, paid out 1,500, travel etc, no puppies, we accepted this and didnt ask stud owner for a refund. Again went to Germany this year same expense (different dog) only 3 puppies but we are delighted with that.
However if any female misses to our dog they get a repeat mating next season foc.

> I am certainly not going to do it for her amusement so  why should I not expect to get puppies from a mating and why should I pay for the dogs services if I don't get puppies?

I don't have any experience of this but as an interested observer can I present the opposing argument:  that the stud owner also does not enter the arrangement for their amusement either.

I think Carrington explained quite well on the other thread that the stud owner has expenses too.  That to produce a viable option they will have campaigned equally hard with a dog as with a bitch.  Breeding isn't a commercial proposition but if it were you can see that the bitch owner *may* have more chance of recouping *some* of those expenses.  Breeding costs money and stud fees are a calculable part of that.

As I said from the beginning I don't have a particular issue either way - it isn't something I'm directly affected by except to say that this thread is enlightening.  If I were the owner of a dog whose services were required (and for all the right reasons) I'd be quite careful to agree a contract up front, and to explore all the possible scenarios before entertaining the idea.  There are presumably 'norms' in each breed and one hopes that both owners will have some idea of what to expect.  I'd imagine there are also different contract terms dependant on the studs experience or level of success.  It must be difficult for both sides if the mating doesn't produce live puppies  and far better to have negotiated terms before it gets emotional.  If the owner of the bitch is unhappy with those terms then they can obviously go elsewhere - provided they are doing their planning well in advance.

In my case it is not just 30 minutes work. I travel to the bitch for various reasons so in some instances it could take a whole day.

Southern girl have you ever had a dog used at stud? And had bitches visit? It is no way near a few minutes work and quite offensive for you to suggest so! It takes alot of experience, knowledge, time and patience. Males used at stud don't just know exactly what to do, they have to be given the exprience of learning which comes with practice, age and handlers knowledge. Several hours in an evening over a 5 day period possibly if the bitch isn't quite ready. If you offer a free return your doing twice the work, why should you not get paid for your time and effort?

Well said Louise.

I have never bred and am not intending to. I wasn't trying to be offensive at all. I was just a bit mystified why some of the posts seemed to me to suggest that puppies  were just an added bonus  that you got if you were lucky when I thought they were the whole point of the exercise.
I will definitely not be breeding any time soon. its far too complicated for me.

Don't worry, I've not taken you as trying to be offensive ... just trying to learn what's what.  I agree with the timescale thing other posters have mentioned, but also what needs to be considered when going to a stud is that the stud owner will (well, should, though sadly that's not always the case) have gone to quite a lot of expense carrying out the medical checks to ensure their boy is fit to breed from. Ideally some of those costs should be re-couped through stud fees, especially if a pup isn't being taken.

To add to my post, I don't show but I intend to in the future but what about those that spend lots on exhibiting thier males and just as much time researching the bloodlines.

When you plan to breed puppies are a plus. Doesn't always happen but that's breeding for you.

I can see that a stud owner should get paid for letting their dog be used and recoup the costs of the health tests etc, I just don't see why the bitches owner has to be the one to lose the whole stud fee if there are no puppies. I would imagine in the vast majority of cases no-one knows why a mating doesn't take so it would seem to me to be fairer for the stud owner to return 1/2 the fee so both bear the cost equally.
This has certainly made me much more aware of the pitfalls of breeding and if I ever do decide to breed my girl I have a much better idea of what needs agreeing beforehand.

>It has been stated several times that you pay the stud fee for the dogs services not for the puppies therefore the stud fee   is not returnable even if no puppies result. i have to say this makes absolutely no sense to me at all?

This is standard practice for all livestock breeding - a stud fee is for the services of the stud. In the past there was usually a gentleman's agreement that a free return is offered if the bitch / mare etc doesn't become pregnant, but nowadays it's wise not to assume anyhting and get all the details in writing.

Sometimes a non-refundable token fee is payable at the time of mating (say £50) with the balance payable on the birth of the litter.

I see what you mean southerngirl but... thats life unfortunatly sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't, if people felt it unfair that the stud only makes money (which isn't always the case) then don't breed.

Thats why most breeders only breed because they want to keep a pup for themselves as they go into breeding knowing full well they probably will only just recoup the costs. The top studs wont be used loads because the kennel would be picky over bitches and sometimes only allow them to be used on their bitches, therefore wouldn't really makes loads of money once campaigned and tested etc.

Having a good relationship with the stud owner is the key really as it looks bad for them if bitches kept missing and people wont use them, this is were your research comes in with getting old breed records and see who sired what, when and how big litters were. Therefore he is proved viable if the bitch misses and he's been very reliable in the past it isn't really the stud owners fault, so they should not loose out with payment.

ive just paid £500.00 stud fee and im waiting to see if she has caught i will be gutted if she hasnt caught but i understand that im not entitled to a refund but a free visit as far as im concerned the fee was for 3 mating stud dog handleing fee and accommondation for my girl the stud dog owner did there job which was alot more than 10 mins work she dedicated a week to getting my girl mated why should she do it for nothing? but fingers crossed she will be pregnant x

> it would seem to me to be fairer for the stud owner to return 1/2 the fee so both bear the cost equally.
>

In some cases I wouldn't call that bearing equal costs.  I never, ever charge for keeping a bitch here.  She is treated as my own, fed and loved, and introduced properly.  I spend a great deal of my time ensuring that a bitch has a stress free stay.  I feel that is my responsibility, and spend hours, not minutes, on ensuring satisfactory covers.  I do my utmost to make sure that the timing is spot on too.  So I believe that I put in quite a lot of effort.  And my stud fee is pretty low.

Im the same as JeanSW with this. My fee is low for what other charge in my breed. I too board the bitch for no additional payment, spend time with her as one of my own, take care and attention to get everything right and ensure she has a stress free visit and mating.

I paid £800 for my last stud fee to a top dog. I bred for a bitch and at the end of it all I ended up with two dogs, neither of which were suitable for my needs with regard to future stock (I am a small kennel so have to be very choosy as to what I can keep and run on).

With what I paid on fees and costs, plus the fact that I bought in two bitches in the end who cost me £400 more each than what I sold each of my boys for. I cant say that I made anything from that litter (not that that is the reason for breeding!!).
But I didnt moan about it or blame the stud owner, nor did I expect 'compensation' for my losses. Its just one of those things, you bite the bullet and deal with it.

We live in one of the outer parts of the country - therefore, a lot of bitches have to come a long way.  In these cases we ask for a handling fee of £50 at the time of mating, if we get a tie, then we ask for X pounds per puppy up to a normal stud fee, in our breed about £700 but take no more; usually the owners stay over as well, but as we know most of them, this is just part of the process, and can have a couple of enjoyable evenings talking our favourite subject, dogs.  If they are local we do not take any money until puppies are born, no pups no fee, 1 or 2 puppies we do not take a fee, possbly we lose out here, but also as a bitch owner, we know full well the expense of trying to get a bitch in whelp, and the subsequent cost of rearing the puppies well.  We do not hand over litter registration papers until the full amount is paid.

This seems to work well, and if bitches have come a fair distance and the bitch does miss, we feel that the owner is not too out of pocket, and if they do not wish to try again at the next season, then there has not been a great loss of money.