Just a query as to what people would do in this situation:
Owner takes bitch to be mated to stud dog and pays fee. Bitch is then very ill with a pyometra and has to be spayed. Owner of bitch has no other bitches to be mated and only step forward is to buy a bitch in and start again. What would you do as owner of stud dog, refund all/part of money, say tough luck, offer free return.......Thanks for your replies.

I would personally return the money.  Same as no puppies then return for a free mating when they are next ready.

> I would personally return the money.  Same as no puppies then return for a free mating when they are next ready

Same with me.

You have actually paid for the service and not puppies so unless the dog was infertile, then I wouldn't expect any money to be returned.
But of course, for the sake of goodwill, then the stud dog owner might make a contribution. :)

The fee is for the service, not for a litter, so morally and legally, the stud owners has no obligation to return the fee.

In saying that, I have never come across any stud owner not returning the fee... I have had a fee returned after trying to mate one of my girls on 3 successive seasons with no luck, the stud owner returned my fee, I never expected it...

I have also returned a fee, when a girl that came to Ollie did not become pregnant, in the interim I lost Ollie, the owner of the bitch asked if I had another suitable dog to use, I didnt (I do have another 2 boys, but I did not feel they matched the bitch) and happily found her a replacement stud to suit her girl, and returned her fee...

Yes, there's no obligation, but in the circumstances it might be nice to return at least half, say?

The stud dog owner had said originally she would return the fee, 2 weeks later she said she'd return "some" of the fee minus what she had paid someone who does the stud work for her. Now saying that no fee will be refunded, it would have been nice if she had been upfront from the start rather than getting my hopes up. A puppy was offered to me from her litter (her bitch was mated the same weekend as mine) but only slightly reduced price, this pup would have cost me the puppy fee and my stud fee so all in all, a very expensive pup  and a very dissapointed owner!

I'm not querying your arrangements per se but wonder if this sort of thing is usually covered in a contract?

Are fees generally paid at the time of mating and irrespective of outcome or can clauses be written in to pay only if the mating is successful or for any other eventuality?  I think if I were the owner of a bitch or a stud that I'd like to know exactly what my liability is before entering into any arrangement - it can be presumably be very emotive afterward.

Sad news about your girl, I hope she is ok now.

There's no obligation to return the money, but me being me would refund the whole lot!

This is a hard question to answer as there doesn't appear to be any set rules with stud dog fees. My fee is £50 to paid after mating and the remainder to be paid when the bitch has produced 3 or more pups that live past the first week. Anything less than 3 I don't ask for the remainder as I know that the bitch owner will be rearing those pups at a loss.
Perhaps some of you will think I'm soft but my best friend was in the situation where she had agreed a pup as the stud fee, having had previous litters of 9 and 6, and then this bitch went on to have a single pup( by a caesararian sic) and had to give it to the stud dog owner!

When we went to look at studs we asked about fee if only 1 born, non born, bitch dies or get infections.....restrictions etc etc, all was answered when we were there so that there would be no surprises later on. To be honest I wouldn't expect any money back as the dog did do his service, but it would be nice; have a look at the contract.

Though I am surprised that the whole fee was paid up front ours is half on day of mating half when lives pups born, if she misses free return or part refund.

I know some breeds seem to have different arrangements, many Bernese and Flatcoat seem to pay £50 unfront, then £150 per live puppy. It is the norm for our breed to pay the full amount upfront.
Part of me wants to just put this down to experience (£400 is a lot of money to me) and just be more cautious next time (what next time.... my sensible head is saying!!) and part of me is angry and wants to go through the small claims court.
There was no contract drawn up. Just be careful folks!

No contract, I don't think there is a leg to stand on in court (sorry):(

£400 is an average amount in ours for a good stud its between £800 to £1000, thank god that you didn't loose the bitch

as a "stud fee" is for the service, then not a leg to stand on, but certainly if i was the stud owner id be making some gesture of £. However I have to say im in a numerically very small breed and all bitches who have been to my stud dogs have owners well known to me personally, and Ive always been happy to have the money after the litter are safely born, as do most people in my breed. I have done a couple of oversees matings as well, but drawn up a watertight contract for those.

Without a contract stating otherwise a stud fee is for the service which was provided.

As you say in breeds where the stud fee is a considerable amount (in my breed it is puppy price) then it is a lot to loose for the bitch owner, and certainly a lot more than covering a stud dog owners time and inconvenience.

Traditionally the fee was for the studs service, boarding the bitch and the handlers time and trouble.

From reading the posts on here it would seem that stud owners rarely have much work other than supervising a mating, not giving more than one mating opportunity and not having to board the bitch,bit unfair on the bitch owner, but hen I am normally the bitch owner ;)

In my own breed stud dog owners rarely expect more than a nominal amount up front, and most would not charge anything else if there are no puppies, would refund some if only one or two pups, most only taking the fee once litter born.  Our breeds stud fee is the cost of a puppy, but with generally boarding the bitch for perhaps a week or travelling to meet the bitch owner part way etc, they do earn the fee..

For me this is perfectly simple, you paid for a stud, as long as the stud is viable and proven then once mated with the bitch the stud owner has fullfilled their part. If the bitch had not taken most stud owners will carry out a 2nd and some even a 3rd attempt, but that is generally out of the goodness of the stud owners heart and their reputation if a contract saying such has not been signed.

It is not the stud dog owners fault that the bitch unfortunately had pyo and was spayed, very sad that that happened, but why should it cost the stud owner or be anything to do with them, they did their part, and they certainly should not be made to feel that the service should be carried onto a newly acquired bitch when it is proven to be worthy of breeding from and when it is ready.

I too can't understand the stud owners offer of half then some then deductions, all I can guess is that they felt very sorry for the bitches owner, but then thought 'well really, it's not our fault nor should it be our financial loss.'

I think it is perfectly fair for the stud owner to return nothing why is it their problem? 

It is not the stud dog owners fault that the bitch unfortunately had pyo and was spayed, very sad that that happened, but why should it cost the stud owner or be anything to do with them, they did their part, and they certainly should not be made to feel that the service should be carried onto a newly acquired bitch when it is proven to be worthy of breeding from and when it is ready.

I too can't understand the stud owners offer of half then some then deductions, all I can guess is that they felt very sorry for the bitches owner, but then thought 'well really, it's not our fault nor should it be our financial loss.'

I think it is perfectly fair for the stud owner to return nothing why is it their problem? 

Because they are basically pimping their dog and living off it's earnings ;-) 

I agree with carrington, if the stud mated with a tie then you got what you paid for its really unfortunate that your girl had to be spayed but its not really the stud dog owners fault im afraid you will have to put it down to experience. hope your girl as made a full recovery

Because they are basically pimping their dog and living off it's earnings

:-D :-D :-D

That's not really how stud dogs work, a stud dog has usually shown it's worth to be good breeding stock via shows or it's working ability it is as valuable as a bitch and becomes sort after. Most stud owners are very fussy about who they mate their dog with and do so for the right reasons to produce healthy pups of good temperament and to breed standard.

They certainly do not 'pimp' their dogs out, well perhaps some BYB's do and puppy farmers won't care who or what they mate their dog with, but most people on this site for instance would not 'pimp' out their dog.

A stud owner is emotionally tied to the bitch they mate their dog with they wish to produce good pups and continue the line with their dogs genes. Once the bitch is not viable then the emotional tie is over and their duty fullfilled of course they should be paid for the handling, time and effort and their dogs seed.

> Because they are basically pimping their dog and living off it's earnings

That's a rather odd notion   ...and, despite the smiley, a tad offensive.

If you extend the analogy to bitches, and owners who sell their puppies, you're comparing dog breeding to human trafficking.  I'm a bit shocked

Just to also add that most stud dog owners generally only charge the price of one pup, or have one pup from the litter themselves, it is a very small amount, their dog/s also have to go through eye, hip and breed related health checks just the same as a bitch and be kept in tip top condition. Not to mention just as a bitch may have the risk of injury during mating so may a stud, which is why a responsible handler is needed, along with the time that may take.

Along with the cost of travel and shows etc it is not cheap to have a viable stud dog.

I paid a £500 stud fee, my bitch had to have c section and none of the 3 puppies survived.  I didn't expect a refund of the stud fee as it wasn't the dogs fault.  Very expensive time in all!

> my best friend was in the situation where she had agreed a pup as the stud fee, having had previous litters of 9 and 6, and then this bitch went on to have a single pup( by a caesararian sic) and had to give it to the stud dog owner!

 

I can't believe that a stud dog owner was hard hearted enough to take the only pup!  I am gobsmacked.

Because they are basically pimping their dog and living off it's earnings

In my case I can't agree with that statement. I'm as excited as the bitch's owner about any litter. At the moment ( and I hope this isn't seen as advertising Mods as it's not my bitch) I've been in weekly contact to find out about the bitch's health etc. We are all really looking forward to seeing the pups and I feel very protective about the homes they will go into.
Reading other threads on this forum I know many others feel the same!

Because they are basically pimping their dog and living off it's earnings

That may be my view of a pet breeder or puppy farmer but not a person who spends all their time passionately showing/working their dogs and soaking up as much knowledge as they can about their chosen breed.

In this tragic case, where the bitch had a pyo, I would expect the stud dog owner to show some heart.

What gets me is the great desire to be seen as a 'hobby breeder' - only in it for the love of the breed etc etc ...
then at a time like this revert to a business man/woman.

Letting someone use your dog is hardly arduous and by many seen as quite flattering.... a cup of tea and an hour or ones time doesn't warrant hundreds of pounds ......it's a litter of puppies which should warrant the fee IMHO.

I have found over the years that the most successful kennels are generally the most generous in this respect and some newcomers a little 'over zealous'.

Im with Carrington on this one.

If it were my bitch who had pyo and had to be spayed, the stud dog and his fee wouldnt come into it. Id just cut my losses and let it go.
I cant understand the stud owners offer of a refund and then reducing it down to nigh on nothing though. Surely they should've just been straight and clear cut from the first phone call?

In my eyes the fee covers the matings, handling and boarding for the bitch. A free return should the bitch miss on the first attempt should also be included.

my best friend was in the situation where she had agreed a pup as the stud fee, having had previous litters of 9 and 6, and then this bitch went on to have a single pup( by a caesararian sic) and had to give it to the stud dog owner!


I agree that wasn't right at all, the bitch owner should have had first refusal of that pup and the stud dog owner a fee instead, that was heartless. Unless..............the bitch owner was not keeping a pup for herself, if that was not the intention of the mating and the intention behind the mating was for the stud dog owner to continue his line then that was very fair, it depends on the reasoning of the mating.

> my best friend was in the situation where she had agreed a pup as the stud fee, having had previous litters of 9 and 6, and then this bitch went on to have a single pup( by a caesararian sic) and had to give it to the stud dog owner!
>
>

Ah thats terrible.

I would return stud fee in this situation, as i am a softie,, as has been said the stud fee is for the service not for puppies,

Yes, again the stud dog owner was within their rights, but morally I would have asked them if they would prefer to pay the fee and keep the single pup. But sadly that is the risk the bitch owner takes - next time they are offered terms like that, they will no doubt spell out what happens if there is only a single pup!

>I agree that wasn't right at all, the bitch owner should have had first refusal of that pup and the stud dog owner a fee instead, that was heartless. Unless..............the bitch owner was not keeping a pup for herself, if that was not the intention of the mating and the intention behind the mating was for the stud dog owner to continue his line then that was very fair, it depends on the reasoning of the mating.

The arrangement with my boys is full stud fee payable at time of mating. If for whatever reason the bitch does not have puppies I offer a return visit. I do not stipulate that this must be with the same dog or indeed same bitch and do not state when. I have never returned a stud fee, but in your case you say that the stud dog owner agreed to return the fee in full, they really should honour this.

> The arrangement with my boys is full stud fee payable at time of mating. If for whatever reason the bitch does not have puppies I offer a return visit. I do not stipulate that this must be with the same dog or indeed same bitch and do not state when.

Ditto, this is how we work also.

does it not depend a little on the level of stud fees?

It can be argued that a breeder will recoup costs when they sell a litter.  In my breed you would need 3 puppies just to cover costs of the litter. 

Cost of health testing in our breed will equal about the price of a puppy, so a stud dog owner will recoup those with their first (quite possibly only stud fee), after that the stud dog owners costs are minimal if they are not boarding the bitch.

In the end it is up to a bitch owner and stud dog owner to agree terms acceptable to both, but I certainly agree, getting a litter is the point of the exercise ;), and unless the stud had a fertility test at about the time of the mating it is not certain that it was not the dog that was the reason for a failed conception. 

So if I was a stud dog owner (did own one in partnewrship) I certainly would not expect to retain most of several hundred pounds when my time and costs were a lot less.

We must have very kind hearted souls in LM's because I've never paid a stud fee at the time of mating but I have paid as the pups sold.  The same people didn't take a stud fee for the use of their dog when another couple of breeders used him & got fading puppy syndrome and a singleton pup.

I would think this happens in most breeds Christine, it does in our also, usually because we know and trust the owners of the stud/bitch... and there is trust in the relationship...

It has to be said, that every breeder/stud owner is different, and its not really down to dictate what/why they do things.. It is up to them to have a good relationship at the beginning, progressing over time until the bitch is ready to be mated..

In most cases I have heard about, the fee has been returned, some cases fee returned minus a £50handling fee, which is more than fair..

But in saying that, there are many reasons why a bitch does not produce a litter, and none of them are any responsibility of the stud owner.. so again, legally and morally, the stud owner is under no obligation to return fee...

Bitch taken too early/late... Not stud owners fault
bitch infertile.. not stud owners fault
bitch pregnant, but resporps... not stud owners fault
bitch becomes ill... not stud owners fault..

One girl who came to Hunter had a singleton, I offered a free repeat
I had a girl who had 3 pups, the stud owner wanted a girl.. I kept the only girl, stud owner offered a free repeat in the hopes of getting a girl..

Each and every mating is down to one individual contract, based wholly on trust.. if you dont trust the breeder/stud owner.. then dont use them!

I'm so glad to read the last few posts, I was beginning to think the dog fancy had changed.

I've been offered free studs, money back, waived payment until pups safely delivered and even offered a free mating when my bitch had a litter of 5 but none were show worthy...now that is generous.

I thought this was meant to be a hobby.

I think we find most of us think along those lines Tooolz, and find its the novice, or those just beginning to start out who are questioning.. and good on them.. its all part of the research process...

Back to the OP's question.. to be fair, none of us can answer it...but its pretty obvious the majority of us would return the fee

> We must have very kind hearted souls in LM's because I've never paid a stud fee at the time of mating but I have paid as the pups sold. 

Ditto in our breed, and kind stud dog owners who will board a bitch for a week or two (pst you know who you are), meet you part way to ease travelling, or even travel to you when you didn't have transport.

> Each and every mating is down to one individual contract, based wholly on trust.. if you dont trust the breeder/stud owner.. then dont use them!

I think Kay has hit the nail on the head.  In my breed, stud fees aren't as high as most (or not in my circle anyway.)

When a bitch comes to me, I already have a decent relationship with the owner of the bitch.   I never charge for keeping a bitch as my breed is tiny.  In fact, visiting girls come to bed with me.  (No not Irish Wolfhounds)  :-)

I often ask for the bitch to arrive before she is ready.  She then has time to get to know my boy, and he's experienced, so unlikely to pester.  If we didn't get a tie, I wouldn't charge a fee, even when the bitch has stayed for well over a week.

>> We must have very kind hearted souls in LM's because I've never paid a stud fee at the time of mating but I have paid as the pups sold. 
> Ditto in our breed, and kind stud dog owners who will board a bitch for a week or two (pst you know who you are), meet you part way to ease travelling, or even travel to you when you didn't have transport.

All I can say is 'treat others as you'd wish to be treated yourself'.   If you are fair with people then you will be treated fairly and gain a far better reputation for yourself.

Reading thorugh this and the related thread it all comes down to agreeing terms before the  mating takes place.  I think most of us who have been associated with Animal husbandry for years and years assume that you pay for the dogs services (and associated handling /keep), anything agreed or offered extra is a bonus.  Different breeds seem to have lots of different little takes on it.  Perhaps we shoudl think along the lines of Stud cards which are standard with Stallions at stud?  Everything is set down in print, and you know exactly what is covered and what is charged for - usually a stud fee paid up front NFFR (no foeal free return) plus a stud groom fee and keep for the mare (ofted for a foal at foot too).  Can;t remember there ever being any argument or attempt at negotiation.  With dogs there seems to be a very wide range of assumptions, few of us here woudl seem to chrge for keep for the bitch, I often travel to do the matings but never charge for diesel/traveling time.

I was interested to see the posts suggesting that some peopel thought the "paying for the mating not guaranteed pups" was unfair, after all, if you have an AI mating do you demand your fees back from the vet if the bitch does not take?  IF you are new to breeding dogs, don't know the stud owner well, etc. etc, then talk the whole thing over with them first, find out just what  the terms are, then you can evaluate this when making your plans.  From my experience, using an experienced dog who is proven on a bitch who is at the right stage of her season usually leads to a pregnancy, but pups can never be guaranteed, so find out where you stand before commiting.  My basic agreement is for a free return for no  preganancy, but in practice this covers a free return for no live pups - a bitch last year whelped 7 but lost them all, so is returning for a free mating. In another instance the bitch tragically died whelping along with the pups, she was the owners only bitch so I  offered to deduct the cost of the stud fee from a new puppy price.

"What gets me is the great desire to be seen as a 'hobby breeder' - only in it for the love of the breed etc etc ...
then at a time like this revert to a business man/woman.

Letting someone use your dog is hardly arduous and by many seen as quite flattering.... a cup of tea and an hour or ones time doesn't warrant hundreds of pounds ......it's a litter of puppies which should warrant the fee IMHO.

I have found over the years that the most successful kennels are generally the most generous in this respect and some newcomers a little 'over zealous'"

Absolutely spot on.

"..even offered a free mating when my bitch had a litter of 5 but none were show worthy...now that is generous"

Blimey, that does instill your faith in human nature, what a very kind gesture indeed. :-)

Just out of interest, would any of you consider it acceptable to take a stud fee upfront for a very brief slip mating (no pups resulted, not surprisingly) ?

I was going to say a similar thing as you gwen relating to AI only with cows, so slightly different. But along similar lines you pay for the service not any resulting outcome or not as the case maybe.

> Just out of interest, would any of you consider it acceptable to take a stud fee upfront for a very brief slip mating (no pups resulted, not surprisingly) ?

My last litter was a result of a slip mating, so it is very possible to have a result from a slip mating

Comparing it to the horse breeding industry is perhaps not the best analogy as that is a business, with staff to pay, a stud farm to run and I'm sure they have an accountant.

Most stud work in this country is done from peoples homes, usually with one or two males who have won at shows and their owners have been approached by bitch owners. To state that the cost of keeping a stud dog (shows, good food, housing etc) is not what the owner would have been prepared to pay anyway, is implying a business, a trade, where the dog is an employee.
There may be some kennels who run it as a trade but this is not the average.

The top Toy stud dog last year is owned by someone who will keep the bitch for a month if neccessary, wants no money till there are pups, puts you up in her lovely house for as long as it takes and will offer free studs to any bitch if you have no viable pups.

I for one, would prefer to keep dog breeding like that and it appears to work :-)

We have had 1 slip mating but didnt charge the lady the stud fee (she brought the female on the wrong day the dog wasnt that bothered, he is usually rampant) we agreed for her tompay if in whelp, she wasnt.

This litter i have we have made a big loss, only 3 in the litter and keeping 2, cost us over £3000, to get her in whelp, but dont mind as this litter has been long awaited.

> cost us over £3000

And I know you would have paid double that to get this special litter, but that was an exceptional case.

Most people dont import dogs regualrily, take them to Germany to show them or mate them, in fact there is a poster on the other 'stud' thread running - who doesn't show, doesn't judge, has very few years experience ( in a hugely expoited breed), yet claims stud work takes great knowledge and experience and charges for her time...... :-(

Most of us know the people who use our dogs, we see them at shows, committee and other doggie ativities...why suddenly switch to 'professional' mode....unless you are offering your dog to the pet bitch market via adverts - then these folk are strangers to you and I suppose you may need more safeguards.

> Just out of interest, would any of you consider it acceptable to take a stud fee upfront for a very brief slip mating (no pups resulted, not surprisingly) ?

If I had taken money I would either offer a free stud or return the money.

> If I had taken money I would either offer a free stud or return the money.

Yes we always offer a free return with whichever female they choose to bring.

Yes as you say toolz most females that come to our dog we know them anyway, they all show their dogs, looking forward to our new progeny from our dog to come out this year, excited very, we used him in Germany over 2 years ago so know he produces, now we are so so lucky to have him its like a dream, cant wait to use him on one of our females at the end of the year.